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The People of TEXOARKLA

Bismillah

Submit
he frequently quoted the Bible.
Of course he quoted the bible, if Lincoln was anything he was a Orator. He knew that for his speeches to stick, he'd need to include some context with which the masses of poorly educated Americans could relate with. The bible was simply the lowest common denominator.
 

shortfade2

Active Member
Of course he quoted the bible, if Lincoln was anything he was a Orator. He knew that for his speeches to stick, he'd need to include some context with which the masses of poorly educated Americans could relate with. The bible was simply the lowest common denominator.

Does that not make him a bible thumper, by definition?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
BULL CRAP!! Lincoln was one of the more devout Christians of his day!

A quote from his wife.
"… As my husband was known to be the most loving and devoted husband & father we will allow these falsehoods a place where they deserve. We all — the whole world have been greatly shocked — at the fearful ideas — Herndon — has advanced regarding Mr. Lincoln's religious views. You, who knew him so well & held so many conversations with him, as far back as twenty years since, know what they were. A man, who never took the name of the Maker in vain, who always read his Bible diligently, who never failed to rely on God's promises & looked upon Him for protection, surely such a man as this, could not have been a disbeliever, or any other than what he was, a true Christian gentleman. No one, but such a man as Herndon could venture — to suggest such an idea. From the time of the death of our little Edward, I believe my husband's heart was directed towards religion & as time passed on - when Mr. Lincoln became elevated to Office - with the care of a great Nation, upon his shoulders - when devastating war was upon us then indeed to my knowledge - did his great heart go up daily, hourly, in prayer to God - for his sustaining power. When too - the overwhelming sorrow came upon us, our beautiful bright angelic boy, Willie was called away from us, to his Heavenly Home, with God's chastising hand upon us - he turned his heart to Christ —"[4]

In all fairness, shortfade, Lincoln's religion is completely unclear. No one knows. It is clear that he was not in any sense a conventional Christian. After all, this is the man who said,

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion."

There's no way on earth you could call him either conservative or a Bible-thumper.

Try again. I think you were reaching for fine American founders like Pat Buchanan, the nazi sympathizer, and Jerry Falwell, the lunatic.
 

shortfade2

Active Member
what about the rest of the ones that I named?

Also, isnt a deist essentially a person who is a christian, Islamic, Judist, etc. Just based off of logic not faith? If that is the case, then many scientists, and other devout Christians are deists.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Does that not make him a bible thumper, by definition?
Hardly, he just knows how to appeal to the masses. Think Obama appearing court side at popular basketball matches. Just because he was well versed in the Bible and able to use it to sway the American citizens doesn't mean he took it upon himself to believe in the bible.
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
what about the rest of the ones that I named?

Also, isnt a deist essentially a person who is a christian, Islamic, Judist, etc. Just based off of logic not faith? If that is the case, then many scientists, and other devout Christians are deists.

Not exactly...

de·ism
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.
Dictionary.com
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Also, isnt a deist essentially a person who is a christian, Islamic, Judist, etc. Just based off of logic not faith? If that is the case, then many scientists, and other devout Christians are deists.
Deism is basically the belief that God created the universe, and then walked away. The deist God is not loving and personal, he doesn't even care about the world - he created the universe to run itself without his help.

It's in direct conflict with Christianity, which teaches of a merciful, loving God who is actively involved in each individual's life.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Through experience, it seems clear to me that anyone who purposely uses the President's full name in their anti-Obama rhetoric is a racist bigot.
I've noticed that, too, but I was giving the benefit of the doubt in the absence of anything overtly racist.
 

Smoke

Done here.
BULL CRAP!! Lincoln was one of the more devout Christians of his day!

A quote from his wife.
"… As my husband was known to be the most loving and devoted husband & father we will allow these falsehoods a place where they deserve. We all — the whole world have been greatly shocked — at the fearful ideas — Herndon — has advanced regarding Mr. Lincoln's religious views. You, who knew him so well & held so many conversations with him, as far back as twenty years since, know what they were. A man, who never took the name of the Maker in vain, who always read his Bible diligently, who never failed to rely on God's promises & looked upon Him for protection, surely such a man as this, could not have been a disbeliever, or any other than what he was, a true Christian gentleman. No one, but such a man as Herndon could venture — to suggest such an idea. From the time of the death of our little Edward, I believe my husband's heart was directed towards religion & as time passed on - when Mr. Lincoln became elevated to Office - with the care of a great Nation, upon his shoulders - when devastating war was upon us then indeed to my knowledge - did his great heart go up daily, hourly, in prayer to God - for his sustaining power. When too - the overwhelming sorrow came upon us, our beautiful bright angelic boy, Willie was called away from us, to his Heavenly Home, with God's chastising hand upon us - he turned his heart to Christ —"
(1) Mary Todd Lincoln was crazy as a bedbug, and (2) she herself said on other occasions that her husband was not a Christian.

excuse me I ment lincoln.
I think Lincoln was the only non-Quaker President of the U.S. who was never baptized. He never belonged to any church, he was an admirer of Thomas Paine and Voltaire, and he told acquaintances privately that he was not a Christian. When he ran for Congress, he was accused of being an unbeliever and never denied it. He didn't believe in the Incarnation and didn't believe the Bible was divinely inspired. John T. Stuart, his former law partner, said:
"Lincoln went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I ever heard: he shocked me. I don't remember the exact line of his argument -- suppose it was against the inherent defects, so called, of the Bible, and on grounds of reason. Lincoln always denied that Jesus was the Christ of God, as understood and maintained by the Christian Church. The Rev. Dr. Smith, who wrote a letter, tried to convert Lincoln from Infidelity so late as 1858, and couldn't do it."
he frequently quoted the Bible.
So do I. I guess that makes me one of the most devout Christians on RF.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
what about the rest of the ones that I named?
None of the founding fathers were conservative. The conservatives were on the other side, supporting the British. The founding fathers were all, to a man, radicals.

Also, isnt a deist essentially a person who is a christian, Islamic, Judist, etc. Just based off of logic not faith? If that is the case, then many scientists, and other devout Christians are deists.
No, a Deist is not Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Deism holds that a Divine Creator created the universe, and that this can be determined by observation and logic. Deists do not recognize a God that you can pray to and who intervenes in the world, rather a Supreme Designer who is responsible for the whole design at the get-go, who is behind the whole picture.
 

shortfade2

Active Member
I am going to do what I hate to do and say proof? because I am pretty sure that George washington prayed during Valley Forge, before they crossed the delaware
 

Smoke

Done here.
I am going to do what I hate to do and say proof? because I am pretty sure that George washington prayed during Valley Forge, before they crossed the delaware
That's a pious fiction, like the cherry tree story. But let's suppose for a moment that Washington's Prayer at Valley Forge is not a pious fiction. Do you think that only Christians pray?

Washington doesn't seem to have been particularly interested in religion, or to have expressed his beliefs much, but he did believe in God. He was a freemason, and as far as I know the freemasons, at least in America, are expected to believe in God. Washington was not especially devout, though, and may have had good reasons for keeping his beliefs to himself. Martha, on the other hand, was a devout Christian, and was distressed and embarrassed by George's refusal to kneel in prayer, and by his habit of avoiding Communion by leaving church early.

That Washington believed in God is apparent. So did Jefferson. So did Adams. Jefferson and Adams, unlike Washington, were very interested in religion. None of them was an orthodox Christian, though, and certainly none of them shared the beliefs of modern-day Evangelical Christians. Evangelical Christianity as we know it didn't even exist in their time.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I didn't see anything racist in the OP, but I do find it curious that it's always the most backward, ignorant states that are so filled with hubris and a desire to secede, and equally curious that anybody would want to stop them.

I'd love it if South Carolina were flooded with fundies wanting to establish a theocracy. Real estate values would go up, and we could sell our house at a profit and move somewhere more civilized.


You don't think that South Carolina is a backward, ignorant state flooded with fundies already?????
 

Smoke

Done here.
You don't think that South Carolina is a backward, ignorant state flooded with fundies already?????
Of course it is. The constitutional ban on same-sex marriage passed with 78% of the vote. In 1998, when we voted on whether to remove the constitutional ban on interracial marriage (which had been unenforceable since 1967 anyway), the amendment passed with only 62% of the vote.

Basically, the entire American South is a backward and ignorant region, and that's changing only slowly. The only thing that makes it slightly more tolerable than the Midwest is that Southerners are friendlier and more polite. They always smile and say "Excuse me" before they kick you in the head.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
when Americans argue with each other about fundimental issues, it is no wonder foreigners are glad they live elsewhere.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
The only thing that makes it slightly more tolerable than the Midwest is that Southerners are friendlier and more polite.
Hey, I live in the midwest! The people here are often stupid, ignorant, and unwilling to accept facts, but they're NOT any less friendly than the people on the coasts! At least our banks don't require fingerprint identification (or at least, they haven't asked me yet)...
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Reagan was definitely a Christian, and Teddy Roosevelt... Personally I love America, but if it keeps going left, and such...

Oh by the way, What did colonists say was the main reason that they were ****** off? Taxing without representation. now it is taxing with false representation

Let's take a look at the religious views of those you mentioned:

Washington: Communicant in the Anglican Church (and later Episcopalian). Rarely mentioned religion in his public life, and went out of his way not to be pigeonholed on his views regarding God. Christian? Most probably. Bible-thumper? Not by any reasonable definition of the term.

Jefferson: "The United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear". "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes". Created the Jefferson Bible, a form of the KJV in which all of the miracles and the resurrection were removed from the text in order to paint what he considered a realistic depiction of Jesus of Nazareth.

John Adams: "The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" "Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires."

Ronald Reagan: I'll give you Reagan. Happily.

Teddy Roosevelt: Dutch Reformed, but it's difficult to track down any firm information regarding his religious beliefs.

Lincoln, who you mentioned in a subsequent post, has already been covered more than adequately by others on this thread.
 
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