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Christian: Some passages about Jesus being God

Linus

Well-Known Member
Here are some passages about the Christ's divinity I would like you all to consider. Please let me know what you think. :)

Matthew 1:22-23 (a reference to Isaiah 7:14)
Mark 2:5-7
John 8:58 (a reference to Exodus. 3:14)
John 10:33
John 20:28
2 Peter 1:1

Isaiah 9:6

And also, check these out.

Isaiah 40:3 compared to Matthew 3:3
Isaiah 42:8 compared to John 17:5
Isaiah 44:6 compared to Revelation 2:8
Psalm 102 compared to Hebrews 1:10-12
 

Finnyhaha

Member
I umm can't debate on this one, as I'm not Christian, but you may want to fix your second link. Isaiah 6 ends with verse 13.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Don't worry about not debating. I'm looking for mostly Christian arguments anyway. But thanks for the pointer. I fixed the passage.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Linus said:
Here are some passages about the Christ's divinity I would like you all to consider. Please let me know what you think. :)

Matthew 1:22-23 (a reference to Isaiah 7:14)
Mark 2:5-7
John 8:58 (a reference to Exodus. 3:14)
John 10:33
John 20:28
2 Peter 1:1

Isaiah 9:6

And also, check these out.

Isaiah 40:3 compared to Matthew 3:3
Isaiah 42:8 compared to John 17:5
Isaiah 44:6 compared to Revelation 2:8
Psalm 102 compared to Hebrews 1:10-12
Hi, Linus.

Maybe the reason you haven't seen more responses is that people tend to be lazy. We don't want to have to look up all the scripture references you've given. Perhaps if you'd included the actual text, you'd have seen a better response.

Anyway, I did look up some (although not all) of them. My own belief is that Jesus is divine -- fully. I believe that He is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. I just don't believe that He is the same person as the Father.

Kathryn
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Maybe the reason you haven't seen more responses is that people tend to be lazy. We don't want to have to look up all the scripture references you've given. Perhaps if you'd included the actual text, you'd have seen a better response.
Ok, here we go. Let's see if this gets a few more...

Mathew 1: 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
A reference to Isaiah 7:14

Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
A reference to Exodus 3:14

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

2 Peter 2:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Found an additional one:
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Comparing the following sets of verses:

Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling,
"Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

compared to

Matthew 3:1 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,


2"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 3For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,
"THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
''MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'"


Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.

compared to

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

compared to

Revelation 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

I won't post al of psalm 102 because that would make this post way too long, but I will post Hebrews 1: 10-12

10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

Maybe this will get them posting...
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I, of course, fully fall into the "I believe Jesus is divine" :). Still, I have to nitpick a couple. Don't compare Jn. 8.58 with Exodus. That's a bad idea. In Greek, Jesus declares prin avraam genesthai ego eimi. The "I am" is ego eimi. In this passage, the representation of God's name is ego eimi.

In Exodus, though, the Greek translation St. John would have used reads ego eimi o on. God's here is translated into Greek as o on, and that is what the apostle would have used had he referred to this passage. The formula works in English but not in Greek.

In Isaiah, though, ego eimi is frequently used to identify God, so there is grounds for understanding it that way in St. John, and Isaiah was a very important book to the early Christians. I don't have the references right off hand, because I'm not in my study, but if you change your references from Exodus to Isaiah, then you'll find your argument here a lot stronger. Personally, I take the verse as Jesus claiming to be God ;).
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
if you change your references from Exodus to Isaiah, then you'll find your argument here a lot stronger.
To which passage in Isaiah are you refering exactly?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Linus said:
To which passage in Isaiah are you refering exactly?

A good example I can get access to right off hand is Is. 41.4 (I didn't bring my references with me, so I checked a work I knew talked about it online. My apologies for that). It goes "Who did and made these things? He called it, the One who called it from the beginning. I am the first and the last. I AM."

As a note, this is my translation from the LXX. I avoided translating "did" literally so as to avoid being controversial, but the LXX has "energized" instead of "did."
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
A good example I can get access to right off hand is Is. 41.4 (I didn't bring my references with me, so I checked a work I knew talked about it online. My apologies for that). It goes "Who did and made these things? He called it, the One who called it from the beginning. I am the first and the last. I AM."

As a note, this is my translation from the LXX. I avoided translating "did" literally so as to avoid being controversial, but the LXX has "energized" instead of "did."
Good points, thanks for the info. I wish I knew more Greek so I could try and understand these things a little better. I have a dictionary, but it's not exactly the same. THanks again.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Linus said:
Good points, thanks for the info. I wish I knew more Greek so I could try and understand these things a little better. I have a dictionary, but it's not exactly the same. THanks again.

Welcome.

I woudln't rely on that dictionary. Sadly, a lexicon by itself normally doesn't cut the mustard (and I've a strong antipathy towards Strongs). However, if you want to learn Greek I reccomend that you use Athanaze! and learn Attic Greek. If you have someone close who already knows it, study under them and see if you can use something like Ancient Greek Alive! (why the titles have exclamation marks, I'll never know). From there, move to the LXX and get familiar with it before or while you read the NT. Whatever you do, though, don't start with the NT. It's too easy to carry baggage in and misread the language.

The only way to fulfill that wish, though, is to spend a few years ;).
 

Ori

Angel slayer
You forget "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good."
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Linus said:
Here are some passages about the Christ's divinity I would like you all to consider. Please let me know what you think. :)

Matthew 1:22-23 (a reference to Isaiah 7:14)
Mark 2:5-7
John 8:58 (a reference to Exodus. 3:14)
John 10:33
John 20:28
2 Peter 1:1

Isaiah 9:6

And also, check these out.

Isaiah 40:3 compared to Matthew 3:3
Isaiah 42:8 compared to John 17:5
Isaiah 44:6 compared to Revelation 2:8
Psalm 102 compared to Hebrews 1:10-12
So if Jesus is god who according to your scriptures was he praying to on the cross. Am I to understand from the statements mentioned above he was talking to himself
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mujahid Mohammed said:
So if Jesus is god who according to your scriptures was he praying to on the cross. Am I to understand from the statements mentioned above he was talking to himself
No, that would be Modalism. Christ was God the Son Incarnate, but He was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. On the cross He was praying to the Father. Each Divine Hypostasis (translated, poorly, into English as Person) is one in essence, but they are not the same individual and nor are they seperate gods.

James
 

may

Well-Known Member
Linus said:
Here are some passages about the Christ's divinity I would like you all to consider. Please let me know what you think. :)

Matthew 1:22-23 (a reference to Isaiah 7:14)
Mark 2:5-7
John 8:58 (a reference to Exodus. 3:14)
John 10:33
John 20:28
2 Peter 1:1

Isaiah 9:6

And also, check these out.

Isaiah 40:3 compared to Matthew 3:3
Isaiah 42:8 compared to John 17:5
Isaiah 44:6 compared to Revelation 2:8
Psalm 102 compared to Hebrews 1:10-12
regarding matthew 1;22 this does not mean that God was jesus it means that God was using Jesus to accomplish his purpose look at Isaiah 8; 10
Plan out a scheme, and it will be broken up! Speak any word, and it will not stand, for God is with us......God was not with them on the earth but he was with them .

 

Melody

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
Each Divine Hypostasis (translated, poorly, into English as Person) is one in essence, but they are not the same individual and nor are they seperate gods.

James
And if that isn't enough to get your head spinning. :eek: I think this is what causes so much confusion among other faiths. Christians believe this and it's still hard to really grasp for us.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Melody said:
And if that isn't enough to get your head spinning. :eek: I think this is what causes so much confusion among other faiths. Christians believe this and it's still hard to really grasp for us.
Of course it's hard to grasp. The nature of God is beyond human understanding, which is why we have to rely on revelation. I once read a post on another forum (probably the Orthodox one I mentioned in a PM to you) that pointed out that all the early heresies combatted by the Church seemed to be the result of people taking logic too far rather than listening to revelation when they failed to grasp some difficult aspect of theology. I think that, with the exception of Gnosticism (which predates, and merely seems to have appropriated aspects of, Christianity) this is probably true, if a little simplistic. that's why I like the Orthodox saying that a theologian is someone who prays - philosophy and human rationalizations are all too often the lip of a slippery slope to heresy.

James
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
No, that would be Modalism. Christ was God the Son Incarnate, but He was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. On the cross He was praying to the Father. Each Divine Hypostasis (translated, poorly, into English as Person) is one in essence, but they are not the same individual and nor are they seperate gods.

James
Salam,
So do you aggree with the trinity, It is to my understanding and correct me if I am wrong but the trinity is a believe that Jesus(pbuh)is the father in heaven, the son, and the holy spirit and these three are one ie. (God+Jesus+Holy spirit=1) Because if they are all equal then according to the statement made in the scriptures none of these enities that are equal can be totaly independent of each other. Please understand the confusion I have on this issue Jesus is God but not when he is on the cross because he is the son at that time. He is talking to himself is the only interpretation I can see in this from a logical perspective. Now I can see how this may not be what the authors of the book mean but it what they are saying. And if you take other statements the individual or individuals have stated in the book it becomes even more confusing. God says he is one, Jesus says the father is greater than I ie. God > Jesus now I know it says the father and I are 1 (Jesus+God=1) but when you add that in it becomes even more confusing. The scriptures say God is not the author of confusion but of peace so I ask is God Almighty the author of this? I have another question who are the authors of the scriptures old and new. How many times has it been changed in the last 100 years not even since its birth. Correct me if my understanding is incorrect but if you change even one letter it is changed. Why does all of christiandom have different beliefs but read from the same book. Correct me if I am wrong but a translation is changing the dialect or language used but the context of the phrase and words used does not change and if in fact you have different words with different context if is no longer a translation but an alteration I have never been sure but that was always my understanding. There are many other questions I have that have never been answered concerning certain things being said in that book depending on which version. Please forgive me I am not trying to sound condesending or arrogant but as a former christian these were some concerns about the subject I went to my fellow christian bretheren with very serious questions and they never either gave me an answer or could make sense of it themselves. I believe something as important as a person salvation should be looked at a the biggest investment you will ever had. ANALOGY If you had to put all the money, livelihood, and all things in this world that mean the most to you on the investment deal of a lifetime. Everything is riding on this decision wouldn't you make sure that you had all the information possible ie. you would ask as many questions as you could about every line in that contract to make sure everything is valid and true before you sign. And If you found any discepencies at all in the deal, false representations, discrepencies, contradictions at all in the contract a wise person would leave that deal alone. And you cannot alter the contract ie. the scriptures or any other sacred book from the original. It is amazing people would never invest there money or lives in a deal based on blind faith but many people are sure willing to give up there soul. Not your money but your soul. I have many other deep questions which would take up another forum. I appologize to anyone if I had said anythign to offend them I am very passionate and most of the time I say to much. May Allah forgive me for any of the mistakes in what I have said and please realize if there are any mistakes they are from shaiton and myself.

Jazakalahu khairon

Mujahid Mohammed Abdul Malik-ul-Mulk
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
It is to my understanding and correct me if I am wrong but the trinity is a believe that Jesus(pbuh)is the father in heaven, the son, and the holy spirit and these three are one ie. (God+Jesus+Holy spirit=1) Because if they are all equal then according to the statement made in the scriptures none of these enities that are equal can be totaly independent of each other. Please understand the confusion I have on this issue Jesus is God but not when he is on the cross because he is the son at that time. He is talking to himself is the only interpretation I can see in this from a logical perspective.
No, that's not what the Trinity doctrine means. Have you ever heard of the story of St. Patrick and the shamrock? He used that plant to demonstrate the Trinity because it has a leaf that is made up of three leaflets. That is closer to what we believe by the Trinity.

Christ was God the Son Incarnate as man. He was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. The One God is made up of all three (which we call Hypostases) who are all equally God but are not identical. God the Father is Unbegotten, God the Son is Eternally Begotten and the Holy Spirit Eternally proceeds from the Father. All three are God but they are not separate gods, merely separate Hypostases of the One.

Your problem is in trying to understand this using human logic. We simply do not believe that it is possible to grasp the concept in that way as God's nature is a Mystery beyond human comprehension.

I will try to explain further if you need me to, but this is without doubt the most difficult aspect of Christian theology - as I would expect as we are attempting to peer into the Mystery of the Divine.

James
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
No, that's not what the Trinity doctrine means. Have you ever heard of the story of St. Patrick and the shamrock? He used that plant to demonstrate the Trinity because it has a leaf that is made up of three leaflets. That is closer to what we believe by the Trinity.

Christ was God the Son Incarnate as man. He was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. The One God is made up of all three (which we call Hypostases) who are all equally God but are not identical. God the Father is Unbegotten, God the Son is Eternally Begotten and the Holy Spirit Eternally proceeds from the Father. All three are God but they are not separate gods, merely separate Hypostases of the One.

Your problem is in trying to understand this using human logic. We simply do not believe that it is possible to grasp the concept in that way as God's nature is a Mystery beyond human comprehension.

I will try to explain further if you need me to, but this is without doubt the most difficult aspect of Christian theology - as I would expect as we are attempting to peer into the Mystery of the Divine.

James
Salam,
The problem I have is not on understanding the trinity. The problem is Christians cannot even agree on what the trinity is. My mother and father in law both have different views on what the trinity is. I have three people trying to explain the same thing but yet somehow from the individual knowledge each has acquired from the same reference material you get three very different views on how it should be understood. What does God the one who is greater than Jesus according to his testimony say about the trinity wouldn't his proclamation on what he is be more valid. God says in Isiah that he is one so I am to take from that statement that he is one. Paul says The father ,the son and the holy ghost all of these are one. Jesus says the father is greater than I. You have 3 very different statements here. Not all can be right somebody is lying and who am I as a muslim or christian commanded to listen to. Are you a follower of Paul or of Jesus Because Jesus say in the new Testament Your father is one. Give me a verse that does not contradict any other verse speaking of the absolute unity of god where Jesus or God says or speaks of in the first person the trinity. Who wrote the New Testament and who commisioned him to do it. Did Jesus appoint this man to interpret his gospels or his disciples and if the disciples where at a difference of opinion with Paul did God as you say make a mistake in choosing them as disciples are we to say god did not know they were gonna make these errors in interpreting. these and many more questions I have. I find it impossible for somone to use mans law to bring order out of chaos. God created this entire universe on a systematic law of reason and logic. He created mathmatics which is based on a complete system of logic. You can not make sense out of nonsense. Not to degrade anyone's belief I just want people to ask and many questions as they can. All true knowledge is based on logic and anything accepted as a fact is not only supported with evidence but all evidence presented must be defined mathmatically. If any of the evidence given does not support the statement one must question the validity of the evidence given
Something to ponder over

Salam

Mujahid

Mujahid
 
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