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Historical Jesus is poorly supported

arimoff

arimoff

Active Member
Oberon said:
Neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud were written down in the first half of the first century. The Mishnah (earlier than both the Jerusalem and babylonian talmud) was written down c. 200 CE. Parts of it, as well as parts of the Talmud, MAY go back earlier, but it is next to impossible to figure out which parts and from which period they date. In other words, although the mishnah and talmud probably give us info which predates Jesus, all of these have gone through editing, changes, and we cannot say whether any part dates from the first half of the first century.
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You cannot say, why would you even be able to, you never read it, its impossible for me to explain if you don't have idea what it is. the names and stories (about Jesus also) it quotes will give you a clear picture when it was written my friend.
 
K

Kurt31416

Active Member
Humanistheart said:
This would be a more valid example if jesus actually followed his own advice on this topic.
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He never said turn the other cheek. Not a trace of any pacifism it in any of the early stuff. That comes from Paul, who never met Jesus (unless he was involved in killing him, like he killed his followers.) As, admittedly the greatest enemy the original followers of Jesus ever had, it was rather self serving...
BrothersEnemiesAndTheGoldenRule.jpg
 
O

Oberon

Well-Known Member
arimoff said:
You cannot say, why would you even be able to, you never read it, its impossible for me to explain if you don't have idea what it is. the names and stories (about Jesus also) it quotes will give you a clear picture when it was written my friend.
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I have read both the mishnah and the talmud. There is no clear indication in any part of either which makes clear what the date of composition is.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Oberon said:
I have read both the mishnah and the talmud. There is no clear indication in any part of either which makes clear what the date of composition is.
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That's quite an accomplishment!
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Kurt31416 said:
Telling the disciples to sell the coats off their backs to buy swords, and them having swords on the Mt. of Olives, conflicting with loving your enemies and turning the other cheek?
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And where was this?
 
K

Kurt31416

Active Member
Riverwolf said:
And where was this?
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Luke has Jesus telling the disciples to sell their possessions and
buy swords, and the disciples asking if buying 2 swords was enough,
in anticipating of being grabbed (by Paul, no doubt.)

Luke:
"22:36Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him
take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his
cloak, and buy a sword. 22:37For I tell you that this which is
written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with the
lawless.' For that which concerns me has an end."

22:38They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords."

He said to them, "That is enough.""

Then, when the enforcers (Paul) come to get Jesus, all of Jesus'
followers have swords. And one of them cuts off the ear of one
enforcer.

"22:49When those who were around him saw what was about to happen,
they said to him, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 22:50A
certain one of them struck the servant of the high priest, and cut
off his right ear."

And John even has Peter himself cutting off the ear, with his sword.

He who has ears, let them hear.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Kurt31416 said:
Luke has Jesus telling the disciples to sell their possessions and
buy swords, and the disciples asking if buying 2 swords was enough,
in anticipating of being grabbed (by Paul, no doubt.)

Luke:
"22:36Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him
take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his
cloak, and buy a sword. 22:37For I tell you that this which is
written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with the
lawless.' For that which concerns me has an end."

22:38They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords."

He said to them, "That is enough.""

Then, when the enforcers (Paul) come to get Jesus, all of Jesus'
followers have swords. And one of them cuts off the ear of one
enforcer.

"22:49When those who were around him saw what was about to happen,
they said to him, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 22:50A
certain one of them struck the servant of the high priest, and cut
off his right ear."

And John even has Peter himself cutting off the ear, with his sword.

He who has ears, let them hear.
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Is this incident only in Luke's Gospel?
 
K

Kurt31416

Active Member
And dumping the tables in the Temple, absolutely guaranteed to require violence to deal with the very strong guards.

And the "I bring you fire, sword and war" sayings, and the "To kill a strong man you first drive the sword into the wall, and so on, here in the Gospel of Thomas version, with the Christian Gospel copies...

Jesus said: Blessed is the man who knows [in which] part (of the
night) the robbers are coming, that he may rise and gather his
[ . . . ] and gird up his loins before they come in. Thomas 103
GThom 21:3, Luke 12:39-40, Matt 24:37-44, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Pet 3:10,
Rev 3:3, Rev 16:15.

It's all about violent resistance to the powerful, i.e. Romans. They
had good reason to nail him to a cross.

I will des[troy this] house, and none shall be able to build it
[again]. Thomas 71 Matt 26:59-68, Matt 27:39-40, John 2:13-22, Mark
14:55-65, Mark 15:29-30, Mark 13:1-4, Acts 6:12-14.

Jesus said: It is not possible for anyone to go into the strong
man's house (and) take it by force, unless he binds his hands; then
will he plunder his house. Thomas 35 GThom 21:3, GThom 103, Luke
11:14-23, Matt 12:22-30, Mark 3:23-27.

Jesus said: The kingdom of the Father is like a man who wanted to
kill a powerful man. He drew the sword in his house and drove it
into the wall, that he might know his hand would be strong (enough).
Then he slew the powerful man. Thomas 98 Luke 14:31.
 
K

Kurt31416

Active Member
Riverwolf said:
Is this incident only in Luke's Gospel?
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The buying the swords is only in Luke's Gospel, but they have swords in all 4 Gospels, with an ear being chopped off in all of them. Plus, the short list of violent sayings I gave with the Christian parallels. That violent stuff is scattered everywhere except Paul.

And the pacifist stuff, the turn the other cheek and love your enemy, is only found in Paul, the Didache, and finally Matthew and Luke, It comes from Paul and Matthew and Luke got it out of the Didache.
 
Poisonshady313

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Amhairghine said:
As Massey, Graves, and other Biblical scholars have commented, it is so unusual that Jesus was not mentioned or apparently noted by Jewish scribes and leaders of the first half of the first century.
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You do raise an interesting point... it seems, for a great deal of the gospels, the very people Jesus was at odds with most frequently was.... the scribes.

The word "scribes" appears no less than 62 times in the "new testament"... yet it seems none of them wrote a word about Jesus.

Odd, no?
 
K

Kurt31416

Active Member
Nothing exists from Israel/Samaria/Galilee, much less Jesus, written down at the time of Jesus, unless it's the Gospel of Thomas.

The Talmud, like the Christian Gospels and Josephus, regardless of merit, were written down many decades later.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Kurt31416 said:
And dumping the tables in the Temple, absolutely guaranteed to require violence to deal with the very strong guards.
Click to expand...

It doesn't say he had to deal with guards, or got arrested. It's very unlikely that Jesus would have been strong enough to wrestle with a guard.

And the "I bring you fire, sword and war" sayings, and the "To kill a strong man you first drive the sword into the wall, and so on, here in the Gospel of Thomas version, with the Christian Gospel copies...

Jesus said: Blessed is the man who knows [in which] part (of the
night) the robbers are coming, that he may rise and gather his
[ . . . ] and gird up his loins before they come in. Thomas 103
GThom 21:3, Luke 12:39-40, Matt 24:37-44, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Pet 3:10,
Rev 3:3, Rev 16:15.

It's all about violent resistance to the powerful, i.e. Romans. They
had good reason to nail him to a cross.

I will des[troy this] house, and none shall be able to build it
[again]. Thomas 71 Matt 26:59-68, Matt 27:39-40, John 2:13-22, Mark
14:55-65, Mark 15:29-30, Mark 13:1-4, Acts 6:12-14.

Jesus said: It is not possible for anyone to go into the strong
man's house (and) take it by force, unless he binds his hands; then
will he plunder his house. Thomas 35 GThom 21:3, GThom 103, Luke
11:14-23, Matt 12:22-30, Mark 3:23-27.

Jesus said: The kingdom of the Father is like a man who wanted to
kill a powerful man. He drew the sword in his house and drove it
into the wall, that he might know his hand would be strong (enough).
Then he slew the powerful man. Thomas 98 Luke 14:31.
Click to expand...

Kurt31416 said:
The buying the swords is only in Luke's Gospel, but they have swords in all 4 Gospels, with an ear being chopped off in all of them. Plus, the short list of violent sayings I gave with the Christian parallels. That violent stuff is scattered everywhere except Paul.

And the pacifist stuff, the turn the other cheek and love your enemy, is only found in Paul, the Didache, and finally Matthew and Luke, It comes from Paul and Matthew and Luke got it out of the Didache.
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And how do you know this? What books have you read to come to this conclusion?

(And, for that matter, do you think Jesus did and said everything that was attributed to him?)
 
arimoff

arimoff

Active Member
Oberon said:
I have read both the mishnah and the talmud. There is no clear indication in any part of either which makes clear what the date of composition is.
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all 63 books of Talmud bavli? there is also several books of talmud yerushalmi.
 
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