Tongues

Ormiston · May 25, 2005

Just one question: what were you saying in your new language?

Hope · May 25, 2005

dorsk188 said:
As a non-believer, I am completely unconvinced by glossolalia (speaking in tongues) in every instance I have ever encountered. I would love to hear the results of your particular experience given sceptical study. Unfortunately, I get the feeling from your posts that you will really only seek out a religious authority to "test" your ability. Please, I beg you. Go to a local university, ask the language department to help you. I am sure you will find someone who will try to get the bottom of it.

From my meager research online, I find that glossolalia is a universally human phenomena. Seemingly isolated groups of traditional peoples perform this activity, usually in religious ceremonies. Lapps do it, Japanese Shintoists do it, Inuits do it. They are surprisingly similar, but all studies seem to show that there is a repetitive pattern of phoenetic units, but nothing that could be really considered "language". If you know of scientific studies that indicate otherwise (or anything really, as I am profoundly interested by the topic).

Perhaps most damaging to the legitimacy of divine causes of Christian glossolalia, the first record of this occurring in Christian traditions (aside from possible NT references) is in the year 1900. It appears that the practice was unheard of for nearly two millennia, which seems unlikely if it is a gift from God. Since 1900, it has caught on among charismatics and pentecostals, eventually spreading throughout the Christian denominations (especially in the 70's).

I would suggest that you either grew up with this tradition (your father is apparently familiar with it) and may have picked it up by simple subconscious observation. Also, it seems that you truly wished for this ability and your expectations may have caused it to happen in the first place. I wouldn't say this, except that I am almost entirely sure that your faith is fairly unshakable, and I wouldn't want you to lose this enviable (psychosomatic) experience.

Essentially, I think what you have is a brain function (rarely used) that can cause a pleasureable experience. Sort of a spiritual masturbation (excuse the imagery). But I beseech you still, PROVE ME WRONG! I would love nothing more than for you to be speaking perfect Hebrew. A short recording would lead to possible conversion and further praise of your God. What better use of this ability?

Dorsk, thank you for comments---great points, and I totally respect everything you have said. I am actually very interested in finding out what I am saying. It is definitely a spiritual gift, but I personally would like more scientific verification of it. For I truly believe science and 'religion' do not cancel each other out. At the same time, though, I don't desire to misuse or exploit this gift. So I walk a fine line.

I was not brought up in an atmosphere where tongues were spoken. It wasn't until a couple years ago that I was even exposed to lots of Christians speaking in tongues---it shocked me at first. I also saw this gift being used in the wrong way, and even 'pushed' on people, so I am aware of the pitfalls, none of which I desire to succumb to. Very few people I am close to have this ability ( even my father, though he believes in it ). It is not practiced or endorsed at the church I attend. I was in fact very skeptical myself, up until the moment I realized I had the gift myself. So I don't think it's something that's been subconsciously programmed into my head. I also don't think it has anything to do with me simply 'wishing' for it either----like I said, I was actually very skeptical, and it totally took me by surprise when I realized what had happened to me.

Though there may not be records of speaking in tongues for a length of time, I don't believe this proves or disproves the legitimacy of this spiritual gift. I think whether or not anyone speaks in tongues is totally up to God, and where and when He chooses to pour out His Spirit in people is not for us to say. But there has been so much corruption in the church, and disbelief in the spiritual gifts, that I do not find it surprising that God would withold this ability from many, for a long period of time.

As far as it being a rarely used function of the brain, I actually agree with you. We really have no idea what our brains are truly capable of. But from a spiritual standpoint, it's not the brain controlling the spirit, but the other way around. I believe God 'awakened', so to speak, this ability in my brain, and He now controls it via His Spirit within me. That is my take on it!

I will see if there is any way I can get my 'language' analyzed by a linguistics expert. I am very curious!

Hope · May 25, 2005

Pilgrim of this Reality said:
Hope, why would you recieve the gift of tongues that no one else in the church or local area could understand? In all NT instances of it, the gift of tongues had a purpose-to be able to communicate with the local people Jesus' teachings. If everyone in the area speaks the same language why would the gift be granted?

Well, Pilgrim, if you are asking me why this gift was granted, then you are barking up the wrong tree, my friend! I simply asked, and I received. God's the only one who could really answer your question.

I'll repeat myself for the benefit of those who have just jumped onto the tail end of this thing. Why do I think I received this gift? Well, first of all, God often has purposes for things that we can't see at the time, that may not become evident until a later time. This could be the case here---I don't know. However, for the present time, I believe it is mainly for the strengthening of my own spiritual life. I pray and just 'talk' to God in this tongue, when I am alone. It's not something I can easily convey to others, but when I speak this tongue, I become more aware of His presence, and feel a much deeper connection to Him. Simply receiving this gift has further deepened my faith.

I believe it was Paul who urged the early Christians to not use this gift in a public setting unless someone could interpret it, because otherwise it did not 'edify' the brethren. I wholeheartedly agree with this. In a public setting it serves no useful purpose if it isn't someone else's language, or it can't be translated. But, as far as I know, nothing is said about using it simply in one's own privacy to commune with God. I will look up verses and see what I can find.

Perhaps God will allow me to use it in a public setting in the future---I have no idea. All I know is that I didn't receive this gift just for the heck of it. God knows what He's doing, I'm pretty sure!

Mr Spinkles · May 25, 2005

dorsk188 said:
I would love to hear the results of your particular experience given sceptical study. Unfortunately, I get the feeling from your posts that you will really only seek out a religious authority to "test" your ability. Please, I beg you. Go to a local university, ask the language department to help you. I am sure you will find someone who will try to get the bottom of it.

I also think it would be best to approach the language department of a university, rather than a religious authority. However, I would also caution that there could be emotional consequences if (and, in my opinion, when) skeptical study shows that this is a psychological--not spiritual--phenomenon.

I myself have seen a hypnotized girl speak an "alien" language which really did sound like another language....so this phenomenon is not confined to the spiritual (or the Christian religion, as dorsk188 pointed out).

Here's a skeptical view of the phenomenon, from http://www.skepdic.com/glossol.html

"According to Dr. William T. Samarin, professor of anthropology and linguistics at the University of Toronto,

glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly .... Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language (Nickell, 108).

When spoken by schizophrenics, glossolalia are recognized as gibberish. In charismatic Christian communities glossolalia is sacred and referred to as "speaking in tongues" or having "the gift of tongues." In Acts of the Apostles, tongues of fire are described as alighting on the Apostles, filling them with the Holy Spirit. Allegedly, this allowed the Apostles to speak in their own language but be understood by foreigners from several nations. Glossolalics, on the other hand, speak in a foreign language and are understood by nobody."

I encourage everyone interested to follow the link and read the rest of the article.

Hope · May 25, 2005

Thanks, Spinkles, for your input. I do hope, though, that you are not implying that I might be schizophrenic!

Kidding, of course. I just might do what you and dorsk have suggested. Honestly, I am not afraid of having someone check this thing out. As a language enthusiast, I am especially intrigued by this new ability.

Hope · May 26, 2005

Something popped into my head about something you said, Spinkles....about this ability being merely psychological, rather than spiritual, and getting only a skeptical viewpoint. Could it be, perhaps, that getting only a skeptical viewpoint is actually no better than getting only a spiritual viewpoint? So often, skeptics automatically dismiss everything that is unusual as being merely 'psychological.' But such a viewpoint is just as limited as someone who says everything out of the ordinary has got to be of spiritual origins.

I personally believe the two work together---psychological and spiritual. God gave us brains, why not use them? It's when we overemphasize one without the balance of the other, that we look at things a little bit 'lopsided'. I say this with all due respect to all you skeptics. I believe this gift of tongues is indeed a psychological phenomenon, in one sense. However, it's not merely a psychological thing. It's origins, I believe, come from the spiritual realm, which uses our psychological abilities. Why must we, when saying something is spiritual, automatically exclude our brains and bodies as having anything to do with it? And why must we, when saying something is psychological or material, automatically exclude the existence of the spiritual? Cannot all coexist?

The one thing I do believe, though, is that the spiritual realm is what controls the physical---not the other way around. But, even so, it does coexist with the physical, and can indeed work via physical means.

But I know this is getting off my original topic.....all this just sprang into my head.

dorsk188 · May 26, 2005

Hope said:
Dorsk, thank you for comments

Your welcome.

Hope said:
---great points, and I totally respect everything you have said.

And Thank You.

Hope said:
For I truly believe science and 'religion' do not cancel each other out.

Agreed, for the most part.

Hope said:
I also don't think it has anything to do with me simply 'wishing' for it either----like I said, I was actually very skeptical, and it totally took me by surprise when I realized what had happened to me.

This runs contrary to your early statement:

Hope said:
silently I asked God to give me the gift of tongues.

This is what leads me to believe that you are fulfilling your own desire. If you asked for this ability and it did not materialize, it would have profound impact on your faith. I would conjecture that you subconsciously developed the ability in the car to save yourself from dealing with an unanswered prayer. This is just my opinion.

Mr_Spinkles said:
However, I would also caution that there could be emotional consequences if (and, in my opinion, when) skeptical study shows that this is a psychological--not spiritual--phenomenon.

Very true, only pursue this if you are willing to hear things that you don't want to hear. If you believe your faith unshakable, or are open to being wrong, no worries.

Hope said:
Could it be, perhaps, that getting only a skeptical viewpoint is actually no better than getting only a spiritual viewpoint? So often, skeptics automatically dismiss everything that is unusual as being merely 'psychological.' But such a viewpoint is just as limited as someone who says everything out of the ordinary has got to be of spiritual origins.

Potentially valid point, but in this case, no worries. As long as it is studied, the belief of the expert is unimportant. Either you are speaking a human language or you are not. If you are speaking a human language, what are you saying? Regardless of the faith of the expert, the results will speak for themselves. This is how science should be done. Only when it comes to interpretation does this become an issue.

A skeptic may say: "Somewhere she picked up enough Hebrew to speak it."
A Charismatic christian may say: "She has a gift from God."
A Buddhist may say: "She was Hebrew in a past life."

There are many interpretations at that stage, but that's a bridge to cross when you come to it.

Mr Spinkles · May 26, 2005

Hope said:
Something popped into my head about something you said, Spinkles....about this ability being merely psychological, rather than spiritual, and getting only a skeptical viewpoint. Could it be, perhaps, that getting only a skeptical viewpoint is actually no better than getting only a spiritual viewpoint?

I don't think so. A skeptical analysis performed by language experts that confirms someone is speaking fluent Hebrew is far more credible than an analysis done by ardent believers.

Hope said:
So often, skeptics automatically dismiss everything that is unusual as being merely 'psychological.'

Those darn skeptics...they take the fun out of everything!

In all seriousness, though, I find the psychological explanations for occult/paranormal phenomena far more fascinating than the supposed spiritual ones. Psychological phenomena like confirmation bias, self-deception, and communal reinforcement are endlessly fascinating, and have a great deal of explanatory power with things like glossolalia. I would recomment in particular that you do some reading on cognitive dissonance, in case the language professors you see conclude that what you are speaking is gibberish.

Hope said:
But such a viewpoint is just as limited as someone who says everything out of the ordinary has got to be of spiritual origins.

Your point is noted, but in all honesty a debate about the "origins" of the phenomenon will get us nowhere. What's more important is, are you really speaking a language? Such a question can be answered relatively easily with the aid of a language professor.

Melody · May 26, 2005

I have to agree with Katspur. Everything I've learned about "speaking in tongues" from the church says that it is not something you do at will. It also does not have to be any recognizable language. It is a direct intervention of God to speak to someone in your immediate hearing. Someone within your hearing should be able to understand the message because it is meant for them. For this reason, it would seem impossible to do any type of study on it.

Too many pentecostal churches have the belief that if you've been truly saved, then you'll be able to speak in tongues. I've attended a few of these churches in the past and my impression is that most, if not all, of those speaking were suffering from mass hysteria or deliberately faking it lest they be accused of not having been saved.

Speaking in tongues is only one of the gifts we might be given and not everyone is given the same gift. Also, when we use these gifts, *we* are not the ones performing...rather it is God working through us.

I've only known one woman who, I am convinced, truly spoke in tongues. She was an exceptionally spiritual woman and when she spoke in tongues, I literally felt the presence of God. And there was always someone in the congregation able to translate what she said.

Melody · May 26, 2005

Mr_Spinkles said:
.
Your point is noted, but in all honesty a debate about the "origins" of the phenomenon will get us nowhere. What's more important is, are you really speaking a language? Such a question can be answered relatively easily with the aid of a language professor.

If she's speaking a recognizable language. It is my understanding that when a person speaks in tongues, it is not. *But* someone within hearing should still be able to translate it. Interesting that in most churches, they don't bother with the translation. INstead the whole service is a chaos of people speaking over top of each other.

Valjean · May 26, 2005

Melody said:
If she's speaking a recognizable language. It is my understanding that when a person speaks in tongues, it is not. *But* someone within hearing should still be able to translate it. Interesting that in most churches, they don't bother with the translation. INstead the whole service is a chaos of people speaking over top of each other.

See post #37. This phenomonon has been studied by linguists.

They are not speaking a language. It is babble. It cannot be translated, there is nothing to translate.

michel · May 26, 2005

I tried all forms of searches on the internet on this subject - viewed from a scientific source, but could find none. Perhaps some of you would have expected that.What I did find though was the following, which you can take as you wish:-
http://www.ial.goldthread.com/namastearticle.html which talks of xenoglossy, which is speaking in a modern language apparently unknown previously to the speaker.

Pilgrim of this Reality · May 26, 2005

Its interesting how people believe various gifts are directly granted by God. If it was true, all teachers, preachers, etc would have them. Even I would in that case, since i have helped many people study. In the NT, only the apostles and a group of Gentiles directly recieved such gifts that way. After that, only the apostles had the power to pass the gifts on. (see the Book of Acts) When the apostles died, the gifts died with them as well since no one else in the NT recollections could pass them on. The Church was established as well as all of its teachings. There wasnt a need for them anymore. Its interesting how all church devisions can be traced back to the original Church.

anders · May 26, 2005

When I was a Christian, I regarded that thing the same way as now, being an athist: It needs treatment in a lunatic asylum.

Prima · May 26, 2005

It seems to me a very pointless gift, and I don't feel that any divine presence would use something like that for no particular reason, assuming that it really is speaking in tongues.

Ormiston · May 26, 2005

Hope said:
Something popped into my head about something you said, Spinkles....about this ability being merely psychological, rather than spiritual, and getting only a skeptical viewpoint. Could it be, perhaps, that getting only a skeptical viewpoint is actually no better than getting only a spiritual viewpoint? So often, skeptics automatically dismiss everything that is unusual as being merely 'psychological.' But such a viewpoint is just as limited as someone who says everything out of the ordinary has got to be of spiritual origins.

I personally believe the two work together---psychological and spiritual. God gave us brains, why not use them? It's when we overemphasize one without the balance of the other, that we look at things a little bit 'lopsided'. I say this with all due respect to all you skeptics. I believe this gift of tongues is indeed a psychological phenomenon, in one sense. However, it's not merely a psychological thing. It's origins, I believe, come from the spiritual realm, which uses our psychological abilities. Why must we, when saying something is spiritual, automatically exclude our brains and bodies as having anything to do with it? And why must we, when saying something is psychological or material, automatically exclude the existence of the spiritual? Cannot all coexist?

The one thing I do believe, though, is that the spiritual realm is what controls the physical---not the other way around. But, even so, it does coexist with the physical, and can indeed work via physical means.

But I know this is getting off my original topic.....all this just sprang into my head.

Maybe it's a message from the Spiritual Realm?

Hope · May 26, 2005

dorsk188 said:
This is what leads me to believe that you are fulfilling your own desire. If you asked for this ability and it did not materialize, it would have profound impact on your faith. I would conjecture that you subconsciously developed the ability in the car to save yourself from dealing with an unanswered prayer. This is just my opinion.

Very true, only pursue this if you are willing to hear things that you don't want to hear. If you believe your faith unshakable, or are open to being wrong, no worries.

I understand why you would think I 'wished' this ability into existence. However, there is actually a great deal of difference between asking for something, and simply wishing for it. Did I wish for this gift? To an extent, yes. But definitely not enough to delude myself. I simply felt God wanted me to ask for this ability, even though I was highly skeptical I would receive it. And, if this makes the situation a bit clearer, I have kind of wanted this gift in the past, but never received it. I simply thought God had His reasons for not giving me the gift. Plus, it sort of spooked me. Believe me, if God had chosen not to answer my prayer for this gift this time around, it would not at all have had any kind of impact on my faith. God has left many prayers in my life unanswered. I would have a very shallow faith if I let a prayer like this one, if left unanswered, shake it. So, no, all things taken into consideration, I highly doubt my 'wishing' for the gift had anything to do with it.

And the whole speaking in my car would never have happened if I wasn't urged by another Christian to do so. She told me she felt in her spirit that God had given me the ability.

dorsk188 · May 26, 2005

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any instances where these events were translated by two people (with the "gift of translation") into two different messages? I would love to see a real study of this, either to confirm that it is worth studying, or debunk it completely.

Moreover, if it is meaningful gibberish, as was put forward earlier, that leads me to think that it is a shared delusion between the speaker and the translator. From what I've heard, the speaker may not even know what s/he is saying. Only the translator knows the meaning, leading to what is essentially unverifiable muck.

I guess God really does want people to believe in him on faith alone, because he is really good at covering up his tracks.:banghead3

dorsk188 · May 26, 2005

Hope said:
To an extent, yes.

The mind is capable of many things. At one point in time, I was convinced that I had experienced an alternate reality. Did I? Maybe, but what's more important is that odds are, I didn't. The mind can convince itself that it is being burned by a coin or is wearing a crown of thorns. When I say you have awakened a part of your mind, I don't really mean that is necessarily a good thing. Certain parts of the mind are ill-used for a reason.

Hope said:
And the whole speaking in my car would never have happened if I wasn't urged by another Christian to do so. She told me she felt in her spirit that God had given me the ability.

Have you ever had anyone encourage you to this extent the other times you asked to speak in tongues?

Hope · May 26, 2005

I have never actually been so bold to ask God outright for this gift. And, no, no one has ever encouraged me before either, at least as specifically as this woman did.

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