Miracles

Does God still perform miracles? And not just any plain miracle or something that can just be explained by circumstance, but actual beyond belief miracles such as miraculous healings and the waking of those who were dead. Also, what if you asked God to move you back in time? If he actually did no one would know that time moved because no one would have anything to compare the "new" time with to the "old" time. Everything would just sort of shift and then continue on as normal. I guess you can see that I'm looking for my one big miracle. Someone please argue.

Hey, welcome to the boards and stuff.

DrCash7 said:

Does God still perform miracles? And not just any plain miracle or something that can just be explained by circumstance, but actual beyond belief miracles such as miraculous healings and the waking of those who were dead.

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It seems that nowadays God seems more interested in burning images of the Virgin Mary into grilled cheese sandwiches than raising the dead. As an atheist, I think that what were once regarded as miracle resulted from a inaccurate understanding of the world. Now that we understand the world better, what were once miracles are now phenomena.

DrCash7 said:

Someone please argue.

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Only because you said please. But I prefer to call it "discussing".

Yes, God still performs miracles. I think it's only those Christians who are Protestant (and not even all of those) who think He doesn't. We Orthodox, for instance, have the Miracle of the Holy Fire every Pascha, incorrupt bodies of saints (one of which at least I can vouch for having seen it with my own eyes), miraculous healings, visions, myrrh-streaming icons etc. Whether or not you choose to believe in them is up to you, but I don't doubt that they are real. I actually feel sorry for the Protestants who are skeptical of such things (and I once was one) as I feel their God seems somehow distant and uninterested. And, no I'm not a believer in such things as Mary appearing on an underpass or a sandwich. That kind of RC-style gullibility is not wholly absent from the Orthodox Church, but it does seem to be far less common.

James

But what about God controlling time? Not changing the subject (the original subject is a slight two-parter) but what about God's control over time? If you agree that miracles still happen, would you rule out miracles involving time? What if a person asked for a miracle involving time and the possibility to revisit that time? I doubt it would be any problem for a being that is all-powerful. But I do love to hear your opintions.

DrCash7 said:

But what about God controlling time? Not changing the subject (the original subject is a slight two-parter) but what about God's control over time? If you agree that miracles still happen, would you rule out miracles involving time? What if a person asked for a miracle involving time and the possibility to revisit that time? I doubt it would be any problem for a being that is all-powerful. But I do love to hear your opintions.

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Are you asking could God control time or would God change time if you asked Him? If the former, I'd say yes, the latter I would aswer with maybe but I doubt it. In general we Orthodox do not ask for miracles or visions or anything like that. It's seen as setting yourself up for spiritual deception (usually known as plani (Greek) or prelest (Russian)), because Satan also can perform miracles. In fact, even if we do experience something miraculous we are told to test if it is of God. Thinking about it, maybe this is why Orthodox tend to react much more cautiously to such things as the Mary image in the underpass. Even if we were convinced that it was supernatural in nature (and in this case I doubt that strongly) then we would still have to test its origin before accepting it, particularly where it is not associated with any particularly holy person or place. I think that if you're hoping God will grant you a miracle you'd be better off asking for something else.

James

as I feel their God seems somehow distant and uninterested

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are you saying there are two gods?

As an atheist, I think that what were once regarded as miracle resulted from a inaccurate understanding of the world. Now that we understand the world better, what were once miracles are now phenomena.

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That about sums it up for me.

are you saying there are two gods?

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No. What I was saying, in shorthand form, is that the Protestant (at least those that disregard miracles) concept of God is of one who is distant and disinterested. I thought that was fairly obvious, but apparently not. This conception of God is not that of the early Church, the Fathers or of the modern Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Oriental Orthodox churches and seems more Deist than Christian. I don't doubt that their prayer and worship is intended for the same God as is ours, merely that their idea of who that God is corresponds to the experience of Christians in 'Apostolic' churches (and yes, our concepts vary a little also, but nothing like to the same degree).

As for your skepticism about miracles - fine, that's your prerogative. However, I must ask, how would you account for the incorrupt relics of saints? To take just one example, St John the New of Suceava. He was martyred in Cetatea Alba (now Bilhorod) on the banks of the Dniester river in the 14th century. He was buried, dug back up again, put in the local church and later moved to Suceava (in Romania) where his relics still lie today, visibly exposed. His body has not decayed (and I've seen this with my own eyes), he was not embalmed (he was buried by the Tartars who martyred him and his burial place wasn't initially known to the Christians, and in any case Orthodox Christians must not be embalmed, ever), he was martyred in July (which is extremely hot and humid - I know from experience), moved in July years later in an open air procession (ditto heat and humidity), and his relics are brought out at least once a year in a procession on his feast day (again, in July!) and often more frequently than that. I don't know about you, but I suspect if I were to die in the Ukraine in July, be buried, exhumed and laid in the church, I'd be green and stinking by week's end, certainly long before they had a chance to move me to Romania and I would certainly not be incorrupt 600 years later - but then I'm not a Great Martyr and saint. If you can come up with a plausible natural process by which St. John's body could remain incorrupt, I'm all ears. Until then it will remain a miracle for me.

James

P.S.
I have a first class B.Sc. (HONS) from a well-regarded British university, so please don't try to paint me as an ignorant peasant. I'm not saying you would, but it's happened to me before when talking about such things and I just thought I'd try and head it off.

DrCash7 said:

But what about God controlling time? Not changing the subject (the original subject is a slight two-parter) but what about God's control over time? If you agree that miracles still happen, would you rule out miracles involving time? What if a person asked for a miracle involving time and the possibility to revisit that time? I doubt it would be any problem for a being that is all-powerful. But I do love to hear your opintions.

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This reminds me of the movie "Somewhere in Time" with Christopher Reeves. I'd like to say that God does not 'control' time. Time is a man-made measurement of the earth's orbit around the sun. Also, God does not 'control' anything. He gave us free will. It would not be free will if he interfered. We were given the freedom to create our reality. And there are some who claim to have 'gone back' in time. There are also some who claim to have seen the future. But they, of course, are considered 'wacko'. There are scientists who ponder the thought of time travel, and of teleportation. Who knows, maybe you could be the one to make the break through.

If you can come up with a plausible natural process by which St. John's body could remain incorrupt, I'm all ears. Until then it will remain a miracle for me.

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I personally can't, but I would be confident that a scientific study would produce a scientific answer. Do you think the church would allow that, or is attempting to ascertain the truth blasphemous?

stemann said:

I personally can't, but I would be confident that a scientific study would produce a scientific answer. Do you think the church would allow that, or is attempting to ascertain the truth blasphemous?

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I don't know. I, personally, wouldn't find it blasphemous as it would have the potential to lead others to the faith, but my personal opinions don't really count here. In any case, though, I think someone would have to come up with a testable hypothesis first before there'd be any chance of them obtaining permission - a general investigation with the aim to debunk at all costs simply would be ignored, and rightfully so.

James

a general investigation with the aim to debunk at all costs simply would be ignored, and rightfully so.

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I agree. Otherwise the scientists would be as bad as the false creationists who start from 'God exists' and work backwards from there; accepting only the evidence that backs them up. This is bad science, and any scientist testing a miracle with the outright aim of disproving it should question his/her motives.

... for your skepticism about miracles - fine, that's your prerogative. However, I must ask, how would you account for the incorrupt relics of saints? To take just one example, St John the New of Suceava. He was martyred in Cetatea Alba (now Bilhorod) on the banks of the Dniester river in the 14th century. He was buried, dug back up again, put in the local church and later moved to Suceava (in Romania) where his relics still lie today, visibly exposed. His body has not decayed (and I've seen this with my own eyes), he was not embalmed (he was buried by the Tartars who martyred him and his burial place wasn't initially known to the Christians, and in any case Orthodox Christians must not be embalmed, ever), he was martyred in July (which is extremely hot and humid - I know from experience), moved in July years later in an open air procession (ditto heat and humidity), and his relics are brought out at least once a year in a procession on his feast day (again, in July!) and often more frequently than that. I don't know about you, but I suspect if I were to die in the Ukraine in July, be buried, exhumed and laid in the church, I'd be green and stinking by week's end, certainly long before they had a chance to move me to Romania and I would certainly not be incorrupt 600 years later - but then I'm not a Great Martyr and saint. If you can come up with a plausible natural process by which St. John's body could remain incorrupt, I'm all ears. Until then it will remain a miracle for me.

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There was a buddist monk that is "uncorruptable." His diet was what mummified him-arsenic in the water etc. Its likely the same happened to John.

I dont believe in miracles because they dont have a purpose and are too undetermined. The miracles in the NT was used to prove Jesus' teachings and were clearly understood as miraculous. There was no doubt by anyone. Even though i dont believe in miracles as in direct intervention by God, i do believe He can intervene indirectly. One way would be providing a doctor the ability to learn about a disease to save someone. Another way to intervene is just to say no.

Overall, why would God use such ways of validating faith when there are others that leave little doubt? This is especially a consideration considering how observable and transparent the NT's accounts of miracles are. It begs an interesting question however, exactly how much power does Satan have in this world? I am not saying a dearly held miracle is an instrument of Satan, but he can use scripture and good intentions to lead people astray. So therefore the possiblity of a miracle actually being something he is using to lead people astray needs to be considered.

In a discussion among predominantly 'Western' individuals, it is inevitable that the supernatural and miracles will be dismissed. This is a predominantly Western mindset. The fact of the matter is that miracles still happen, all over the world. Here, though, you simply don't hear much about them, and when you do, they are immediately dismissed as hoaxes. I know people who have witnessed actual miracles, and who know other people who have witnessed or experienced miracles. I think the main reason why those of us here in more secular, westernized nations don't see more miracles is because of our unbelief. We shouldn't blame God---it's our own fault.

Never thought of it that way...

There was a buddist monk that is "uncorruptable." His diet was what mummified him-arsenic in the water etc. Its likely the same happened to John.

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Given that St. John was a merchant and son of a merchant who travelled all around the Black Sea and Eastern Mediterranean during his life, the dietary explanation seems extremely unlikely to me. If there were enough arsenic (or some other agent) in all the food and water supplies in the region for this to happen, I'd expect incorruptible remains to crop up all over the place, but they don't. And just how much arsenic would it take to preserve a body? I'm even skeptical about your buddhist monk being preserved by dietary arsenic - it seems more likely he'd have been poisoned well prior. Do you have any sources? Certainly, I'm aware of the fact that the Russian Tsar Ivan the Terrible had several times the lethal dose of arsenic in his body (probably due to a belief that it could cure syphillis, which he suffered from) and his body has decomposed. You'll note that the difference in climate between Russia and the Ukraine (where St. John died) is reasonably small also. Oh, and for the record, St. John's martyrdom was not due to poisoning, so he couldn't have ended up with high arseni levels that way either - he was dragged through the city streets behind a horse and then beheaded.

James