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God Debate

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
No, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were kicked out of the Garden, thus being denied the tree of life, and thus brought death upon themselves, also the moment they ate it they "died" spiritually bring sin into the world.

please, please, please, tell me the difference between this and the knowledge of good and evil.
Well, knowing what God tells you to do is not nessecarily knowing it is good, and knowing what God tells you not to do is not nessecarily knowing it is evil.

provide me with valid evidence, if not then your point is totally worthless.
You stipulated that omniscience demanded the loss of free will, I have given you a valid possibility which provides for omniscience and free will. We are debating the philisophical, no "hard" evidence exists.

Books are called:


  • Atheism: The Case Against God
  • The impossibility of God
  • The Dark Side of Christian History
Nice to know when your suspicions are correct.

and yes i do have that video. A documentary done by a Christian to find the true writers of the bible. And found out a lot more about it on his quest.
You said you have video "proving the Bible false". If you believe so, please elaborate in another thread.

I'm sure that Mr Emu will have a great answer
Thank you.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
pandamonk said:
Ok so how do you decide what stories to read literally and what stories not to and why?
I don't suspect that you would like me to break down the entire Bible, word for word... short of that, I'll give you the basics of my faith concerning Scripture:

"Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.
  1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture".
  2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church".
  3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.
is it the impossible ones you look for the true meaning and the more believable ones you take literally?
Well, I always look to interpret literally FIRST.... but the rules of reading Scripture should always be applied. Again, short of going verse by verse..... you'll just hopefully understand that a theological study of the Bible is more than just picking it up and reading it.
Why not take the whole book as one big metaphor?
Why not? Go ahead.... won't bother me a bit.... as for me, I don't.
Knowone knows the right way to take it(the way it was intended). So It really has to be one or the other.
Well, Roman Catholics believe that the Church knows the "right way to take it".... for me, to trust in the Bible and not the Church that defined what books were included in it would be kinda silly.

Hope this helps.
Scott
 

stemann

Time Bandit
I have given you a valid possibility which provides for omniscience and free will.
Actually you haven't. This is what I wrote earlier in this thread:

OK now omniscience. I understand what that person said about God not having free will because i thought that myself at one point. for instance, God always knows exactly the right thing to do, so He would always do the right thing, so He could not choose otherwise, as He is all-loving and would not do anything that is not completely the right thing, as this would make him not God. The weavers analogy assumes that there is more than one option open to God as the 'right thing', but if this was true, then both options would have to produce exactly the same result in terms of lovingness, and there is a good analogy which shows that if this were the case, it would be impossible to do anything. This paradox is called Buridan's donkey or something, and looks like this:

"A paradox of medieval logic concerning the behaviour of a donkey who is placed equidistantly from two piles of food of equal size and quality. Assuming that the behaviour of the donkey is entirely rational, it has no reason to prefer one pile to the other and therefore cannot reach a decision over while pile to eat first, and so remains in its original position and starves."

So God, having the choice of two identical moral actions, would not be able to choose between either of them. I'm sure this is a flawed argument as God is omniscient and could do whichever one he chose, but if there was any reason to choose one over the other then that would again mean that God would always choose that one, and so would never have chosen the other one, and we are back to the beginning. I think...... This is clear in my mind but i dont think i have explained it properly. Sorry.
And on the Bible truth/metaphor debate, basically, the Christian world has changed its views on the Bible constantly throughout the last 2000 years in order to keep themselves integrated with society. There is nothing in the Bible about genetic modification, but people still constantly try to vary their interpretations to fit it in.
What do you do when your holy book doesn't have an answer to something? Make it up.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
stemann said:
Actually you haven't. This is what I wrote earlier in this thread:


And on the Bible truth/metaphor debate, basically, the Christian world has changed its views on the Bible constantly throughout the last 2000 years in order to keep themselves integrated with society. There is nothing in the Bible about genetic modification, but people still constantly try to vary their interpretations to fit it in.
What do you do when your holy book doesn't have an answer to something? Make it up.
Hi Stemann, Namaste.

I won't deny that there aren't religions that have changed the interpretation of the Bible to suit their own ends - whilst some have just cut out bits they don't like (Henry VIII who separated himself from Catholicism because his wife couldn't bear him a son, and he wanted rid of her.), but I think that you are forgetting Catholicism and Judaism, both of which are faiths so steeped in tradition and unrelenting determinationnot to waiver from their stance.
As for your comment:-
"What do you do when your holy book doesn't have an answer to something? Make it up" - With respect, I think is what you are doing, in your own mind about what you choose to believe.:)
 

stemann

Time Bandit
With respect, I think is what you are doing, in your own mind about what you choose to believe.:)
How many times have i said it, you don't choose what you believe! All you can do is assess different arguments.

In order for me to get a full education, and not just be biased towards science, I joined a Christian Youth Fellowship for two years. I assessed critically claims from both the Bible and modern teachings. I went to church once a month and to 'discussion' once a week. Not once did i find anything remotely as convincing as scientific and philosophical arguments. I did not choose to follow science but my analysis led me to this.

But perhaps a theist would conclude exactly the same for God at a science institute. Oh well.

Because like i said before, some minds are more susceptible to belief in the supernatural, God, etc., and some need hard evidence for everything.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Buridan's donkey
A completley rational donkey would realize if he doesn't eat he will die and walk over to one of the food piles and eat it.

He is all-loving and would not do anything that is not completely the right thing, as this would make him not God
No, it would make God, not all-loving, it would not make Him not God.
 

pandamonk

Active Member
Mister Emu said:
No, it would make God, not all-loving, it would not make Him not God.
No you're missing the point "God" as a definition IS all moral, which means, if the celestial being you believe in is not all moral then that being is not a god.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
No you're missing the point "God" as a definition IS all moral, which means, if the celestial being you believe in is not all moral then that being is not a god.
Not by my definition
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Just a thought...why is it important whether God exists or not? Excluding religion, excluding the Bible, excluding morals, why does it matter to anyone if there is an entity that no one can understand or relate to? If life is purely a natural thing, does anyone really believe that morals and religion would cease to exist? Right and wrong only has meaning in a world involving humans. If we were extinct, where would God fit into that existance? No other living creature on this planet worships. I am curious about this because I give the credit for my existance to the trillions of humans who have managed to survive for the last million years. Shouldn't we honor them before we honor an imagined being that no one has ever seen?
 

chuck010342

Active Member
pandamonk said:
yeh why? lol

ABBA is an Aramaic word. It means Daddy but a much more respectful sense. This is what Jesus called his father. Jesus never called God omnipotent or omniscient. Think of a little kid lost in the supermarket in Modern day Israel he calles for his ABBA and when he finds him he runs to him and takes comfort in his arms. That is the best image of God I can think of.


pandamonk said:
lol nice one yeah, you can believe what you want. thing is some people force what they believe onto others and i want that to stop, so i show them where, i think, they've gone wrong.

AMEN
pandamonk said:
yeah i hate when people just say something without giving a reason or proof. They just say anything and expect you to believe it for no reason.

AMEN
pandamonk said:
I know it is an old argument but i thought it was a rather good one.

its okay, good thing I can refute it.

pandamonk said:
lol i've never seen that on the simpsons.i'll have to look out for it. it's rather funny.

It is on the episode where Home takes Pot for his eyes

pandamonk said:
it is impossible to do for us yes but not for a, supposedly, omnipotent (meaning infinite power/can do anything) being ie a god
but as Tawn pointed out the argument does fall flat on its face and he gives the reason.

I tried to do that too but I guess Tawn is a better talker then me.


pandamonk said:
ok i was saying that many Christians have the argument "the universe is too complicated to not have a creator. So due to the complicatedness, it has a creator." and I'm saying "due to the complicatedness of the creator, it also needs a creator and the creator of that creator would also need a creator etc etc."so I'm saying isn't it more likely that the universe was created some other way "The Big Bang" for example?

Okay I get it. What we have here is intelligence making its way on information. this is how I refute the argument.

Were did the information to form the universe come from?
from other information

Where did that information come from
from other information

Where did that information come frome
from other information

the only thing that makes sense is infinite information (aka GOD)
 

chuck010342

Active Member
Ormiston said:
Just a thought...why is it important whether God exists or not? Excluding religion, excluding the Bible, excluding morals, why does it matter to anyone if there is an entity that no one can understand or relate to? If life is purely a natural thing, does anyone really believe that morals and religion would cease to exist? Right and wrong only has meaning in a world involving humans. If we were extinct, where would God fit into that existance? No other living creature on this planet worships. I am curious about this because I give the credit for my existance to the trillions of humans who have managed to survive for the last million years. Shouldn't we honor them before we honor an imagined being that no one has ever seen?

Two reasons for the need for God

Heaven/hell

the moral law
 

chuck010342

Active Member
Linus said:
This is the same old "can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it" debate. I've seen it too many times to count. The (my) answer is this: We do not know the answer.

didn't you just violate the scriptures? see 1Peter 3:15
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Ormiston said:
Just a thought...why is it important whether God exists or not?
Wouldn't you be curious to understand how this universe came into existence, and where you came from?

Ormiston said:
... why does it matter to anyone if there is an entity that no one can understand or relate to?
Who said no one can relate to God?

Ormiston said:
... No other living creature on this planet worships.
All what is in this universe worships God, including birds and trees.

The only exception is those who claim that God does not exist.

Ormiston said:
... Shouldn't we honor them before we honor an imagined being that no one has ever seen?
How can you "see" God who is Eternal?

There is to Him no equivalent.

All the best.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
Does 1 Peter 3:15 mean that we have to have ALL the answers?

We can only affirm that wich has been revealed to us (religiously speaking, of course). And as far as I know, there is no scripture that really addresses the issue of God's power in as it relates to the question stated in the beginning of the thread. If you can show me a scripture that could at least help to explain a better answer than "we do not know" I would love to see it.
 

Tawn

Active Member
chuck010342 said:
Okay I get it. What we have here is intelligence making its way on information. this is how I refute the argument.

Were did the information to form the universe come from?
from other information

Where did that information come from
from other information

Where did that information come frome
from other information

the only thing that makes sense is infinite information (aka GOD)
The alternative position is to accept that complexity can develop from simplicity.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
Linus said:
Does 1 Peter 3:15 mean that we have to have ALL the answers?

We can only affirm that wich has been revealed to us (religiously speaking, of course). And as far as I know, there is no scripture that really addresses the issue of God's power in as it relates to the question stated in the beginning of the thread. If you can show me a scripture that could at least help to explain a better answer than "we do not know" I would love to see it.

1 Peter 3:15 does tell us to be prepared to answer anybody who asks us. We need to find the answers and to be ready to answer people. It doesn't give us all the answers thats what God is for.
 
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