Is God forgiving?

Michael Turner said:

Hi Blogger,

Sorry it has taken me a couple days to get back to the board. This is a fascinating thread, however, and I thank you for bringing it up.

That said, I'm having difficulty understanding where you are coming from. You seem to have a problem with the concept of God forgiving sinners yet still requiring a price to be paid for sin itself. However, when you contrast by describing Islam, you speak of Allah who only requires repentance. To this I would ask if he would forgive if you do not repent? Should the answer be "no" (and I'm assuming that it is), I would think that there is indeed a price to be paid. From there I must ask to what degree must you repent? A little? A lot? Perfectly? For a day? For 20 years? For a lifetime?

Basically, how great is the price that your religion demands? In your answer I hope to get a better idea of just how seriously Allah takes sin.

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Hi MIchael,

Good to see you back.

I do not have a problem accepting a belief that sins can be forgiven. My problem is how sin is forgiven in Christianity if Jesus paid for sins.

I think there is a a difference in the two.In Christianity they say that Jesus paid, in fact they say forgiving without paying is unjust and I have seen that in several literature.

However, in Islam sin can be erased by just asking for it so in Christianity there is suffering and pain to 'be forgiven'. In Islam u do not have to suffer to be forgiven.

In Islam not all sins are equal. I am told in Christianity all sins are equal which makes me wonder how God in Christianity views shoplifting candy in a store equivalent to killing!! Can someone confirm that in Christianity all sins are equal, I have been told this by Baptists. If that is the case why dont Christians advocate one law that simply lists crimes and have one sentence for shoplifters and murderers to follow God's way?

In Christianity all sins are equal only in the sense that they separate us from God and make us unworthy of him. Beyond this, every sin has it's own level of magnitude and consequence. This is evident throughout the Bible and Jesus himself spoke of it often (Matt 23:13, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47, John 19:11 are just a few examples).

Again though, I would like to know more about how Allah deals with sin. You say that sins are forgiven if you ask. Must you not repent as well? Are there not religious practices that must be followed in order to set you apart from sin? Or does Allah forgive simply by asking, without any pursuit of holiness?

Michael Turner said:

In Christianity all sins are equal only in the sense that they separate us from God and make us unworthy of him. Beyond this, every sin has it's own level of magnitude and consequence. This is evident throughout the Bible and Jesus himself spoke of it often (Matt 23:13, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47, John 19:11 are just a few examples).

Again though, I would like to know more about how Allah deals with sin. You say that sins are forgiven if you ask. Must you not repent as well? Are there not religious practices that must be followed in order to set you apart from sin? Or does Allah forgive simply by asking, without any pursuit of holiness?

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On unworhiness-so do different sins make us unworthy to different magnitudes or equal magnitude? If the magnitude is dependent upon the sin itself then how can sins be equal? When Adam errored, did he become 'unworthy'? A basic defination of 'worthy' will help.

By asking to be forgiven I mean to repent so yes one must repent to be firgiven and repentence comes with prcatices like having remorse, sincere intent not to repeat the sin etc so pursuit of obedience is mandatory.

Thank you for clarifying. I will try to address your question first.

Every sin has its own magnitude depending upon the sin itself and the context in which it was committed. There will come a day when each man will stand in judgment before God and by no means will all sins be treated equally. However, every sin--even the slightest--separates us from communion and eternal life with him, as he is perfect and holy. So in that sense, all sin makes us unclean in his presence.

Regarding Adam, the answer to your question is yes. When Adam sinned he became unworthy of companionship with God and eternal life. However, God was gracious enough to provide redemption for Adam in Christ. Adam believed in the promise of Christ and was saved through the faith and hope of his coming.

So in Islam you say that forgiveness is not just given out freely to anyone who asks. You mentioned that one must feel remorse, repent, have sincere intentions to keep from sin, and pursue obedience before forgiveness is actually granted. Essentially then, what you are explaining is the price that Allah demands for forgiveness. Well, my next question is to what extent must this price be paid for Allah to be satisfied? Perhaps the answer is that obedience must be perfect. Perhaps repentance is required only for sins that one is aware of. How much remorse is expected? Must tears be shed over a broken promise?

Again, with your answer I hope to have a better understanding about just how seriously a most holy Allah takes sin. I'd like to get a glimpse of the seriousness of evil through his eyes. Most of all, I might be able to see of how he plans to eradicate this problem of sin altogether.

Madhuri said:

there is only ignorance.

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is ignorance good or bad?






.

Michael Turner said:

Again, with your answer I hope to have a better understanding about just how seriously a most holy Allah takes sin. I'd like to get a glimpse of the seriousness of evil through his eyes. Most of all, I might be able to see of how he plans to eradicate this problem of sin altogether.

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What are you getting at?

Are you insinuating that if Allah does not require a blood sacrifice he therefore does not take sin seriously enough? Isn't that a bit biased?

The whole point of this thread is to explore the concept of why God would require a sacrifice in order to forgive humans of their sin. Should not true repentence (which includes a feeling of remorse and a sincere desire and attempt to correct one's ways) be enough? Why must an innocent's blood be shed? What does that lamb have to do with something that I did wrong? Do you punish your dog when your child throws a temper tantrum? If you don't, does that mean you do not take your child's misbehavior seriously enough?

Blogger said:

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

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The payment of justice is lacking. Let's say that someone kills your husband/mother/child/wife - do you forgive them? What would make you forgive them?

Here is a true story to ilustrate how one person dieing can pay the price of another's sins.

There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.

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Why was Lincoln never criticized for that decision? A price had been paid -

the price: First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons

If this price had not been paid, President Lincoln would not be able to spare the 19yo's life. A whole flank for the army died - If your husabdn/son/father had died as a result of this 19yo, you would want justice. The little mother paid the price, and so everyone could forgive and forget for her sake. without the little mother and the price she paid, no one would be able to forgive/forget.

Justice has to be served.

you can re-write the above story, God instead of little mother... Jesus instead of husabdn/5 sons.... 19yo = us.

Did that make sense?
"Lincoln never criticized for that decision " do you understand why the price paid made everything just? and merciful?

Falvlun said:

What are you getting at?

Are you insinuating that if Allah does not require a blood sacrifice he therefore does not take sin seriously enough? Isn't that a bit biased?

The whole point of this thread is to explore the concept of why God would require a sacrifice in order to forgive humans of their sin. Should not true repentence (which includes a feeling of remorse and a sincere desire and attempt to correct one's ways) be enough? Why must an innocent's blood be shed? What does that lamb have to do with something that I did wrong? Do you punish your dog when your child throws a temper tantrum? If you don't, does that mean you do not take your child's misbehavior seriously enough?

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In my above story - the 19yo repents, but he is unable to give justice to all those who lost loved ones due to his negligence. You can repent all you want, change yourself all you want, but if you cannot repay those whom you have hurt, you cannot bring people back to life, you cannot take back the hurt you have caused them - when it is impossible for you to satisfy justice, that is where Jesus comes in. People might not forgive you for your sake, but they will forgive you for the sake of Jesus. Jesus gives everyone a reason to forgive one another.

~~~~~
Another thing - Jesus experienced all of our pains and sorrows, he can help us because he was experienced everything that we have. It's not just about forgiveness, it is about having a member of the Godhead who is able to be there with you through everything.

idea said:

In my above story - the 19yo repents, but he is unable to give justice to all those who lost loved ones due to his negligence. You can repent all you want, change yourself all you want, but if you cannot repay those whom you have hurt, you cannot bring people back to life, you cannot take back the hurt you have caused them - when it is impossible for you to satisfy justice, that is where Jesus comes in. People might not forgive you for your sake, but they will forgive you for the sake of Jesus. Jesus gives everyone a reason to forgive one another.

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I don't know, idea. What you are talking about sounds more like revenge than justice. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are able to forgive people for their own sake, no Jesus involved. I do not always need "justice", as you describe it; forgiveness, for me, is something that is much more personal and emotion based.

Your concept of justice also does not seem very just to me. I would understand if God, demanding justice, made us pay for our own sins. That would be just. Making an innocent being, whether animal or Jesus, pay for someone else's sins is not just. It is the same concept as a whipping boy that I brought up earlier: Is justice served when one boy gets whipped for the crimes of another?

Justice involves more than simply a price being payed. The person who incurred the debt needs to be the one paying.

Michael Turner said:

Thank you for clarifying. Again, with your answer I hope to have a better understanding about just how seriously a most holy Allah takes sin. I'd like to get a glimpse of the seriousness of evil through his eyes. Most of all, I might be able to see of how he plans to eradicate this problem of sin altogether.

Click to expand...

The Quran has explicit and graphic words on hell fire. Foe example is clearly states that the skin will be burned and replenished over and over again. Science has recently proved that pain receptors are actually in the skin so when the skin is completely destroyed the receptors are also destroyed but that is not the point, I just got carried away by science in the Quran

So I believe it is serious business and that is why people have been warned to the extent of getting glimpses of hell fire where people will be neother dead nor alive.

Some people shall stand before Him with many good deeds but because they have taken others rights they will have to pay them with their good deeds until they become bankrupt. So this partly explains how He takes sin seriously and of course not all sins are similar in his sight.

The problem of sin will not end in the world, it will end after Judgement. This life is just a test, some will pass, some will fail.

Let us all pray to be among the successful.

idea said:

The payment of justice is lacking. Let's say that someone kills your husband/mother/child/wife - do you forgive them? What would make you forgive them?

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Under Islamic Law a killer can be forgiven by the family of the deceased and if they do so the State cannot force to punish the killer because they have more right on the deceased than the State.

If anyone wrongs me in any form, if I decide to forgive without punishing I do not expect to be considered to be unjust. If the one who is wronged decides to forgive he cannot be accused of not being unjust. Similarly God can forgive without punishing the wrong doer if repentence is sought on His terms.

If he has to punish to forgive than He cannot be called a forgiver because u cannot punish those who wrong u and claim to have forgiven them, can u?

Falvlun said:

IJustice involves more than simply a price being payed. The person who incurred the debt needs to be the one paying.

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The concept of Jesus having paid for sins of humanity to me is like spanking an obedient child for the mischief of others. That just does not seem like justice.

Jesus said he came not to change the Law of Moses but to fulfill, under the law of Moses salvation was through faith in God and deeds and this is not consistent with salvation in Christianity today because Moses never claimed to have paid price for anybody's sin as a path to salvation.

Blogger said:

The concept of Jesus having paid for sins of humanity to me is like spanking an obedient child for the mischief of others. That just does not seem like justice.

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I agree completely.

Blogger said:

Jesus said he came not to change the Law of Moses but to fulfill, under the law of Moses salvation was through faith in God and deeds and this is not consistent with salvation in Christianity today because Moses never claimed to have paid price for anybody's sin as a path to salvation.

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I think the connection is something like this: the Law of Moses required you to sacrifice over and over again to purify yourself, but Jesus came as the ultimate and final sacrifice. So, basically Jesus is like super-Lamb.

Falvlun said:

I think the connection is something like this: the Law of Moses required you to sacrifice over and over again to purify yourself, but Jesus came as the ultimate and final sacrifice. So, basically Jesus is like super-Lamb.

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So He sacrificied Himself so that He Himself could forgive since He is also God?

Is it like a child misbehaves and u forgive him by giving him a chance to whip u?

I understand that as humans we need reference anchors but we should really abstain from these child/parent analogies. There are not many ways that GOD's relationship with humans resemble our own earthly relationships.

I think our need for forgiveness comes from our personal conflict with our animal side; we still feel that we are beasts despite our beliefs that we are "civilized."

I would tend towards a Jungian approach towards how Jesus' death reconciled that. Jesus represents the child-hero who, in order to grow beyond his youth (our perceived beastly side), he must sacrifice himself to be reborn as something worthy of the divine.

In my view, Carl Jung made an extremely compelling case for this in his Man and His Symbols (which unfortunately is packed away with the rest of my books ), and how the hero myth of most cultures follows this trend.

Blogger said:

The Quran has explicit and graphic words on hell fire. Foe example is clearly states that the skin will be burned and replenished over and over again. Science has recently proved that pain receptors are actually in the skin so when the skin is completely destroyed the receptors are also destroyed but that is not the point, I just got carried away by science in the Quran

So I believe it is serious business and that is why people have been warned to the extent of getting glimpses of hell fire where people will be neother dead nor alive.

Some people shall stand before Him with many good deeds but because they have taken others rights they will have to pay them with their good deeds until they become bankrupt. So this partly explains how He takes sin seriously and of course not all sins are similar in his sight.

The problem of sin will not end in the world, it will end after Judgement. This life is just a test, some will pass, some will fail.

Let us all pray to be among the successful.

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Good morning Blogger,

That indeed sounds like a very steep punishment for sin. Though the details you shared are somewhat more descriptive, it seems quite similar to the judgment and eternal torment that is found in the Bible.

However, I'm afraid that my question has remained unanswered. What I was trying to ascertain had more to do with the price that Allah demands for forgiveness as a measure of the seriousness he holds for sin. So perhaps I will be a little more specific:

Does Allah require perfect repentance for sin?

Does Allah hold the exact same standard for everyone (regarding repentance)?

Falvlun said:

What are you getting at?

Are you insinuating that if Allah does not require a blood sacrifice he therefore does not take sin seriously enough? Isn't that a bit biased?

The whole point of this thread is to explore the concept of why God would require a sacrifice in order to forgive humans of their sin. Should not true repentence (which includes a feeling of remorse and a sincere desire and attempt to correct one's ways) be enough? Why must an innocent's blood be shed? What does that lamb have to do with something that I did wrong? Do you punish your dog when your child throws a temper tantrum? If you don't, does that mean you do not take your child's misbehavior seriously enough?

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Hello Falvlun,

I think I have been very plain about "what I am getting at." I would like to know the price that Allah requires for repentance.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. From your perspective, repenting with feelings of remorse and sincerity should be enough to satisfy God. It seems Blogger has a similar understanding. Here is what I want to know next: What is Allah's standard that must be met for acceptable remorse and sincerity in repentance? Is it relative to the sinner or is there a divine expectation for all? More specifically, is perfection required?

These are honest questions. I hope that they are taken with charity as I am not an expert on the Islamic faith.

.lava said:

is ignorance good or bad?






.

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Hi lava!

Jesus said before he died ''forgive them father for they know not what they have done''

Ignorance is bad. We need forgiveness for being ignorant.

HEHHE.....god's ways are strange indeed.

Blogger said:

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

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This is really simple. To satisfy God's justice a price has to be paid. Justice is, after all, a satisfaction of the law. Yet, those who accept Christ do not pay the price themselves. Therein is the forgiveness.