Christless Christianity

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

slave2six said:
Absolutely. Read all of the Bible and ask yourself why killing animals has any impact on a "spiritual" condition (sin) - or was it more a form of manipulation ("If I screw my neighbor's wife I'm gonna have to sacrifice my best bull. (or whatever)" Pretty good reason to keep your zipper up.) If that's not weird enough for you, ask yourself why a human sacrifice is necessary at all for any purpose whatsoever. I can't get my head around that one at all. It's barbaric at best.

Yep.

Its all complete foolishness right? :shrug:

slave2six · Aug 20, 2009

Heneni said:
Its all complete foolishness right?

I know I know. "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom." Whatever. There is a defense for every irrational, morbid and odious claim for your religion and I know them all. I prefer to deal in the physical world since the spiritual world has yet to be proven or demonstrated as even existing.

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

slave2six said:
I literally feel nauseous when people say stuff like this. You really believe that a human sacrifice of one who is a "virgin" with regards to sin, much less one that was so brutal as the death of Christ is depicted, is not the most noxious, odious, disgusting thing that any deity could possibly want, require or ask for? It's sick sick sick.

Naturally it makes you feel sick. It would make me feel sick as well, if i didnt understand it. I understand my need for god. I understand that absolute reliance on him is important, but what i understand most of all, is that i DESIRE god. And what i understand second to that, is that i should not try and be god, but rather be free to enjoy him.

But all this stuff is foolishness to some people and i understand that.

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

slave2six said:
I literally feel nauseous when people say stuff like this. You really believe that a human sacrifice of one who is a "virgin" with regards to sin, much less one that was so brutal as the death of Christ is depicted, is not the most noxious, odious, disgusting thing that any deity could possibly want, require or ask for? It's sick sick sick.

Look, if it makes you feel that sick, then you really should not be talking about it too much. Or does it make you sick, but not enough to stay away from it?

slave2six · Aug 20, 2009

Heneni said:
Naturally it makes you feel sick. It would make me feel sick as well, if i didnt understand it. I understand my need for god. I understand that absolute reliance on him is important, but what i understand most of all, is that i DESIRE god. And what i understand second to that, is that i should not try and be god, but rather be free to enjoy him.

But all this stuff is foolishness to some people and i understand that.

It's like my teenage daughter being in love with Edward in the Twilight series. Here's a free tip - you can only enjoy a fictitious boyfriend or lover or master as long as you are able to ignore reality. For some people, that is a lifetime. Too bad, really.

slave2six · Aug 20, 2009

Heneni said:
Look, if it makes you feel that sick, then you really should not be talking about it too much. Or does it make you sick, but not enough to stay away from it?

The OP said nothing about it. It was you and ChristneES who brought it into the conversation. It's like you're farting at the table. Disgusting and unexpected.

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

slave2six said:
It's like my teenage daughter being in love with Edward in the Twilight series. Here's a free tip - you can only enjoy a fictitious boyfriend or lover or master as long as you are able to ignore reality. For some people, that is a lifetime. Too bad, really.

Well you see it is fiction to you because you dont have faith. I dont blame you here, i can just sympathise. Not that you need my sympathy of course but from my perspective i think it would have been advantageous for you to have access to god, because it really does bring with it a sense of peace that i would have liked you to experience. I mean if you had faith you would believe in god and I understand why you dont. I know that you would gladly make Jesus your lord and you would absolutely desire god more than anything this world can provide if you had faith. I know....you dont get it and i understand.

But the next thing is....what is your attitude towards those who do have faith? You think they are nuts, fair enough, but you must remember that the christians have a god that listens to what you say to them. He observes your disdain for them. Will he let you, you know, continue to hurt them by your callous remarks about their god and their faith?

If atheists are right nobody will know, but if christians are right, everybody will and i mean you are sure that you are 100% right, right?

Christless Christianity · Aug 20, 2009

It is very interesting reading these last few posts. Why do you think some are able to believe and most unable to believe? Do you think God enables a few sinners to believe in Christ for His own good pleasure?

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
It is very interesting reading these last few posts. Why do you think some are able to believe and most unable to believe? Do you think God enables a few sinners to believe in Christ for His own good pleasure?

Well it really comes down to faith in my opinion. And we can see that many dont have it so they cant believe. And of course immediately folk will cry out THAT IS NOT FAIR, and you know and people get all like this :fight: and then christians want to start appologising because they have faith and others dont and then you eventually have christians who think that god's plan is to cram as many folk into heaven as he can even if they dispise him.

All through the history of the OT, god has NEVER proven to be wrong, not even once for choosing and electing a people. And he justifies his choice in a way that we cannot say, but that is unfair.

For example, god chose jacob not esau in the womb. This the bible clearly says. Did esau know this? No he didnt, but later on god is vindicated for not loving esau when we see esau trading his most valuable and prized an honourable 'possession'' his birth right for a bowl of soup.

In another instance and i read this last night, was when god chose abraham. Abraham is the father of faith. Did god make the right choice? Well abraham never wavered in faith.

Then we see the destruction of sodom and gamorra. This is total destruction we are talking about here. Now just in case we think that god is not vindicated in doing that, abraham inquires from god that if there are as little as 10 righteous people in the city will he destroy it? And he said no. In the end there was four. One which turned into a pillar of salt.

Lets take the wrath of god for example....the wrath of god comes onto this planet and we think, those plagues are so cruel, can god not have mercy! But we see in the book of revelation that nobody wanted to repent during the wrath. Again god is vindicated.

There are for example many people now who are adamant that when the wrath comes they will be sorry and want to repent...but the bible shows that it wont happen and so god is always and in every circumstance right. He will completely vindicate his name showing that whatever the fate of any being on this earth or heaven is in the end, it will be completely justified and fair.

Heneni

Poisonshady313 · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
Please help me understand what Judaism teaches. I thought religious Jews are waiting for the Messiah (savior)? Isn't the complete Torah in the Bible?

The Jews certainly are waiting for the Messiah, and yes, the complete Torah is in the Bible (well, the written part anyway).

But the problem is, you have no idea what that means.

Whether it comes from your preacher, your parents, your reading of the "new testament"... you've got a warped view of what Judaism is, how it operates, and what Jews believe.

The reason Jews tend to get frustrated in conversations with Christians is, when you ask a question, and I answer it, you look at it through the lens of your highly mistaken view of Judaism... so the answers we give are either dismissed, or misinterpreted... which is a shame, because instead of listening people who have been carrying on a 3,300 year old way of life, you take your cues from the very people Jews insist have thoroughly distorted their faith.

If you want to understand anything about Judaism, you have to know what scripture is relevant and holy to Jews. You have to NOT reject their answer because of something Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, Jesus or Paul said.

I know you know what Christianity says about Christianity. I know you know what Christianity says about Judaism.

But don't pretend that you actually know about Judaism better than people who live it.

Christless Christianity · Aug 20, 2009

Heneni said:
Well it really comes down to faith in my opinion. And we can see that many dont have it so they cant believe. And of course immediately folk will cry out THAT IS NOT FAIR, and you know and people get all like this :fight: and then christians want to start appologising because they have faith and others dont and then you eventually have christians who think that god's plan is to cram as many folk into heaven as he can even if they dispise him.

All through the history of the OT, god has NEVER proven to be wrong, not even once for choosing and electing a people. And he justifies his choice in a way that we cannot say, but that is unfair.

For example, god chose jacob not esau in the womb. This the bible clearly says. Did esau know this? No he didnt, but later on god is vindicated for not loving esau when we see esau trading his most valuable and prized an honourable 'possession'' his birth right for a bowl of soup.

In another instance and i read this last night, was when god chose abraham. Abraham is the father of faith. Did god make the right choice? Well abraham never wavered in faith.

Then we see the destruction of sodom and gamorra. This is total destruction we are talking about here. Now just in case we think that god is not vindicated in doing that, abraham inquires from god that if there are as little as 10 righteous people in the city will he destroy it? And he said no. In the end there was four. One which turned into a pillar of salt.

Lets take the wrath of god for example....the wrath of god comes onto this planet and we think, those plagues are so cruel, can god not have mercy! But we see in the book of revelation that nobody wanted to repent during the wrath. Again god is vindicated.

There are for example many people now who are adamant that when the wrath comes they will be sorry and want to repent...but the bible shows that it wont happen and so god is always and in every circumstance right. He will completely vindicate his name showing that whatever the fate of any being on this earth or heaven is in the end, it will be completely justified and fair.

Heneni

See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Hebrews 12:6

Jacob was a liar and deceiver, just as sinful as Esau, both deserving of the wrath of God. But we know Esau was godless. But Jacob the deceiver was chosen before the foundation of the world to be a vessel of Gods mercy... in-spite of his personal sinfulness. All of the saints in Scripture were quite sinful and fallen. The only difference between the believer and unbeliever is their eternal final predestination, determined before the creation of the world. Do you seem to agree?

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Hebrews 12:6

Jacob was a liar and deceiver, just as sinful as Esau, both deserving of the wrath of God. But we know Esau was godless. But Jacob the deceiver was chosen before the foundation of the world to be a vessel of Gods mercy... in-spite of his personal sinfulness. All of the saints in Scripture were quite sinful and fallen. The only difference between the believer and unbeliever is their eternal final predestination, determined before the creation of the world. Do you seem to agree?

I seem to agree completely:angel2:

Christless Christianity · Aug 20, 2009

Heneni said:
I seem to agree completely:angel2:

I think once a Christian understands predestination and election, we are enabled to love the unbeliever, and treat them with over-abundant grace. If Faith is a gift from God, we as believers are not better than the unbeliever in regards to moral superiority. We are only objects of the grace of God in an eternal way. There really is nothing to boast about, except that we know Him by a sovereign gracious act of God. This is why I get so angry with contemporary Christians when they manifest self righteousness in forms of moral political agendas.

angellous_evangellous · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
I think once a Christian understands predestination and election, we are enabled to love the unbeliever, and treat them with over-abundant grace. If Faith is a gift from God, we as believers are not better than the unbeliever in regards to moral superiority. We are only objects of the grace of God in an eternal way. There really is nothing to boast about, except that we know Him by a sovereign gracious act of God. This is why I get so angry with contemporary Christians when they manifest self righteousness in forms of moral political agendas.

So we can love others because they are nothing more than objects of the wrath of God, "you" the object of God's grace.

You're not kidding - there is no room for pride in moral superiority, everyone is subject to God's grace or wrath.

One would think that one could make up a God a little more sane. :shrug:

angellous_evangellous · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
I think once a Christian understands predestination and election, we are enabled to love the unbeliever, and treat them with over-abundant grace. If Faith is a gift from God, we as believers are not better than the unbeliever in regards to moral superiority. We are only objects of the grace of God in an eternal way. There really is nothing to boast about, except that we know Him by a sovereign gracious act of God. This is why I get so angry with contemporary Christians when they manifest self righteousness in forms of moral political agendas.

Friend, you have a sign on your head that reads "my religion is useless."

Heneni · Aug 20, 2009

Christless Christianity said:
I think once a Christian understands predestination and election, we are enabled to love the unbeliever, and treat them with over-abundant grace. If Faith is a gift from God, we as believers are not better than the unbeliever in regards to moral superiority. We are only objects of the grace of God in an eternal way. There really is nothing to boast about, except that we know Him by a sovereign gracious act of God. This is why I get so angry with contemporary Christians when they manifest self righteousness in forms of moral political agendas.

yes as paul said clearly in his letters, if any man wants to boast he can only boast in one thing, that the knows christ. And to know christ would never ever have been possible had god not drawn us to him and elected us to bestow his special favour on us, in order to show forth the glory of his grace. It really is all for his glory. All of god's various aspects is part of his glory. And god wants to have us know the glory of his grace, the glory of his power, the glory of his wrath, the glory of his mercy, the glory of his forgiveness and so forth. And he has various instruments and ways and means how he demonstrates his glory. We have nothing to boast about. He has chosen us to show forth the glory of his grace. And i'm happy he did (maybe he knew that i would be

)

Christless Christianity · Aug 21, 2009

angellous_evangellous said:
Friend, you have a sign on your head that reads "my religion is useless."

Grace and peace to you my friend.

Riverwolf · Aug 21, 2009

M O N S T E R said:
Which is obviously a crock.

Depends on who is doing it "correctly."

slave2six · Aug 21, 2009

Heneni said:
Well it really comes down to faith in my opinion.

Can you describe the difference between faith and imagination for me please? To me, they are one and the same. With faith you have to just accept something as being real without any evidence. Same with imagination. Why is one considered to be more valid or noble than the other?

blackout · Aug 21, 2009

Well "faith" can be a kind of a "decision" to give a thing "probable" status,
usually for some personal reason of trust.

ie... I have "faith" in my daughter to make good/well thought out personal decisions,
(because I see that this is her nature)
so I don't worry about her going out into new situations without me.

Thus I "act" on my "faith" in her.

I dunno. This is what faith means to me anyway.

Faith in the "existence" of something we do not personally experience?
I do not understand.

I think instead, people experience things... then attempt to name and explain them.
Sometimes the line between imagination and reality is very very thin...

Christless Christianity

Miss Independent

Substitious

Miss Independent

Miss Independent

Substitious

Substitious

Miss Independent

Member

Miss Independent

Well-Known Member

Member

Miss Independent

Member

angellous_evangellous

Guest

angellous_evangellous

Guest

Miss Independent

Member

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi

Substitious

Violet.