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Could someone please explain the trinity?

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
I would just like to make a simple statement of my belief of the Godhead. I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I believe them to be three seperate beings who are one in purpose. We, in reference to Genesis, are literally created in the image of God. God and his son Jesus have bodies of flesh and bones as do we. However, their bodies are immortal and ours our immortal. After we are resurrected, we too will have immortal bodies like our father and our brother Jesus Christ. Before we came to earth and received mortal bodies, we were spirits. The Holy Spirit is a spirit who has not yet received a body with the divine calling of messanger for God the Father and Jesus Christ.

You know, there's a simple test to find out if something is true:

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering."
(James 1:5)

If you sincerely believe the Bible then listen to what Christ says:

"For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Follow the invitation. I know by experience that it really works.
 

bbcat

New Member
In all actuality, for you to understand the trinity, not only must you know the Holy bible, God's word, and believe it to be the authority of God given to man. The bible clearly explaines who God is. Three divine and wholly equal beings as one God.
 

bbcat

New Member
Of course everyone knows who God is, but when you get to the four gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John, you are introduced to Jesus the Son of God and his mission. Hebrews clearly defines who Jesus is and the fact that he is also God, and was with God when the world came into being. In acts, Jesus clearly introduces you to the Holy Spirit who is God's spirit and helper, not just a "wiff of smoke or energy", but given human attributes when referred to. Ex: He eats, He speaks, He counsels etc. The early Christians recognized that the Hebrew and greek languages used a singular form of the word God when referring to one, both or all three beings as one God. Thus recognizing that God is actually three forms of diety in one God...It is ALL IN THE BIBLE....Of course, you could think of the "egg example". an egg is made of three parts, the yolk, the egg white and the shell. An egg, made of three distinct parts is not referred to as three eggs, but one. And what about water? Water is still H2O, but it can become liquid, ice or steam, three separate and distinct forms of H2O, and it is still water....The term Holy Trinity came from the early Christians somewhere the 3rd and 5th centuries, who recognized a triune God. Three holy equal beings as One Holy God.
 

Churchgirl29

New Member
St. Patrick best explained the Trinity using the example of a shamrock, with each of the three leaves representing one aspect of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) but all being connected to a single stem, which is why the concept of one God in three parts is monotheistic (worshiping one God)
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Wow Thisshouldmakesense, you sure have done your homework! I agree with you completely. The apostitization you mention has biblical reference. Paul knew that there would be a falling away.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day* shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2Thessalonians 2:3)
*If you read this passage in context you will find that this is reffering to the second coming of Christ.
 

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
Sorry that I haven't responded as of late. Any of the fellow members here from Iowa can confirm that the week before last we got rained on pretty hard. Being as how I work for a masonry company and we are dependant on the weather when it comes to working, I needed to get my 40 hours in 3 and a half days which included last saturday. On top of that my boss wants to work 12 hour days being as how days have gotten longer. Anyways, on to the subject at hand.



Well, they shouldn't. I once played tennis against a friend and realised that i wasn't as good as i thought i was, so it was humbling for me to realise that.
Did this friend of yours proclaim that you had no clue how to play tennis and that you needed to humble youself and take lessons since you just think you know how to play by faith but in all reality don't? Becuause, in essence that is what you did.



That verse would make no sense, in the way you think of it. It’s like he said 'Truly i tell you, before Abraham was, God.' if I AM is a description or name for God, then that is house the sentence would be taken, which makes no sense. The New Living Translation renders it more appropriately as:
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!' which is the true meaning of the sentence. And makes sense.
Well, lets use your logic to see if it violates the Principle of Noncontradiction which will reveal how much sense it makes. First, notice the similarity in definitions for the term "I am" in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 which is easily found at http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=I%20am&begin=41



Exodus 3:14=

hyh a primitive root [compare 01933]
Transliterated Word TDNT/TWOT Entry
hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Part of Speech
haw-yaw Verb

Definition
to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
(Qal)
----- 1a
to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
to come about, come to pass
to come into being, become 1a
to arise, appear, come 1a
to become 1a
to become 1a
to become like 1a
to be instituted, be established
to be 1a
to exist, be in existence 1a
to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
to accompany, be with
(Niphal)
to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
to be done, be finished, be gone



John 8:58=

eijmiv the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
Transliterated Word TDNT/TWOT Entry
eimi 2:398,206
Phonetic Spelling Part of Speech
i-mee' Verb

Definition
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present



With the similarities of definitions in both verses, using your logic Exodus 3:14 should read "And God said unto Moses, I existed before THAT I existed before: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I existed before hath sent me unto you." Besides that, your choice of which translation "makes sense" begs the question of why it actually makes sense to you. Is it because it fits your doctrine? I'll get into translation definitions and differences later on in this post since I have noriced a trend in your post.

Yes, but it could be said that he simply was repeating what he said in Mark 13:32. because he didn't say that he knew the time now either.
Here, let me once again use your logic to respond to that statement;

Yes, that could be explained that way, but it isn't.
'They are not the same person. If they were, it would not be by definition a trinity, but rather a unity manifested in three different ways. On top of that, if they were the same person, then why would they manifest themselves as three distinct "persons" in Matt.3: 16-17?'
My point exactly. And yet that is what the trinity teaches. Look at the Athanasian Creed:
ok, lets look.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

Noticed what I underlined from this tenet of the creed. The emphasis of this statement is clearly that the Father is one person, the son is another person, and the Holy spirit is still yet another person. The use of the word "another" in this statement nullifies the notion that this statement maybe trying affirm that the three are the same person. So as far as being the same person goes, it looks like the creed affirms both of our beliefs. Now what they are one in, besides person, is Godhead, glory, majesty (points # 6 & 7),
being uncreated (points 8 & 12), incomprehensibility(points 9 & 12), which is interesting given what you are trying to do, eternality (points 10 & 11), being almighty(points 13 & 14), and being God (points 15 & 16).


But there is one thing I want you to know: A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God. So, bearing this in mind, how can the Athanasian Creed say that? How can Jesus be responsible to himself in that context of that scripture?
As much as I don't like repeating myself, for your sake, I'll go ahead and endure a little displeasure. Once again, "Jesus is subordinate relationally (1 Cor.11;3;15:28)". Since the Bible and the Athenasian creed confirm that they are indeed three individual persons this concept shouldn't be all that hard to grasp. But being as how you have conveniently forgotten this point in an attempt at trying to point out a supposed contradiction, I guess I can understand why it happened. But before I am finished with this point, I am curious as to what your understanding of Galatians 3:27-28 is with your emphasis on women being "subordinate to their husbands" and how the two are reconciled?



What I mean is, is one superior in anyway to the other? The creed says that they are each almighty. I wanted to know if that is what he believed?
Are you attempting to make the words "superior" and "almighty" synonyms? Just because Jesus is relationally subordinate to the Father does not automatically qualify that the Father is superior or "more almighy"(which is a definitional contradiction) than Jesus. I can give plenty of examples in real life, like the work place, where one person may be subordinate to another which has nothing to do with that person being less superior in any other aspect besides position.



Exactly, one in will. Not person. And have you ever had someone say to you, or someone you know, 'wow, he's the image of his dad!' or 'Isn't she the image of her mother?' being the image of someone doesn't make one the same person. You might display similar qualities, traits or even looks. However, being like some one, isn't being them.
You seem to have this consistency of confusing the idea of being one in essence with being one in person which neither your, I, the Bible, or the Athenasian creed agree with, so where you are getting this notion from is buyond me. I do however like your explaination of the term "in the image of". You confirm that both Jesus and The Father are one in will and acknowledge that the Bible is stating that The Father and Jesus can have "similiar qualities" and "traits". The next question, using your logical conclusions of what Jesus is, then becomes why would the Bible make the point of emphasizing Jesus being the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15) since the Bible already acknowledges that humans were made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26)?



Colossians 1:16 (English Standard Version)
For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 1:16 That is, by means of; or in

Or (New Living Translation)
Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
Ah yes, Once again, picking a version of the Bible that fits your doctrine. Before I address that issue, I am curious as to what you think is meant by "For by[a] him all things were created (Footnotes: a. Colossians 1:16 That is, by means of; or in)"? Are you trying to imply that maybe the Father held Jesus like a hammer or some other tool and chisled out creation, or since in Genesis, it states that God spoke creation into existence, that maybe Jesus was a majic microphone that God spoke into and out came creation?


Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
 

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
Let’s see shall we?
John 17 (New Living Translation)

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, (No mention of the Holy Spirit…) the one you sent to earth. 4I brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you told me to do. 5And now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

6"I have told these men about you. They were in the world, but then you gave them to me. Actually, they were always yours, and you gave them to me; and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you, 8 for I have passed on to them the words you gave me; and they accepted them and know that I came from you, and they believe you sent me.

How you can get anything other that what it says out of these verses, I don’t know…
Well, here's what it says. Notice what I underlined (the word "shared"). Now show me a spot in the Bible where God has absolutely no problem with sharing His glory with another created being. How many stories in the Bible would you like me to show where people did not give God gory and had to pay dearly for it (Dan. 4, Acts 12:20-23).

I didn’t say that he was just a ‘mere man’, like the rest of us. He was a perfect man, But still open to the needs of men, i.e. hunger, tiredness etc. But obviously he was not like us, cos of everything he did, who he was etc, etc…
Boy, does that leave the door open for a whole slew of questions. You acknowledge that Jesus existed before Abraham and at least to around A.D. 30-33 (depending on when one dates His crucifixion) which covers a few thousand years at the least and can be claimed by no other human being or naturallly be explained (see you take on John 10:30 above). Even with that acknowledgement, even calling Jesus "a perfect man" doesn't seem to do Him justice. Since, according to your logic, Jesus was "a perfect" rather than "The perfect", are you leaving the door open for more "perfect" men/humans to exist? I am truly curious of where in the Bible it explains how this "perfect man" came into existence and why God didn't just make everyone "perfect". There's many more I could ask according to that statement, but I'll try and hold back for now.

I didn’t leave it out conveniently.
O.K. lets looks at your statement again:
Then there was the voice from heaven at his baptism, Matthew 3:17: ‘And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.’How was that possible if Jesus was God?How come whenever there were visions of the heavenly throne, by other prophets, only God and Jesus or the Lamb were seen? Never any mention of a third being?
Once again, you ask a question about Matt. 3:17 and The Father's affirmation about Jesus and then go directly into a question about why "other prophets" have visions of "the heavenly throne" and there is "never any mention of a third being". Your predisposition of visions of only two beings caused you to conveniently not even consider the role of the Holy Spirit in Matt. 3:16. BTW, I usually don't get onto eschatology since there is so much debate over it, but I am curious as to what your interpretation of Johns vision of what some versions of the Bible call the "sevenfold Spirit in Rev.1:4? Now before you answer that question, remember that the seven lampstands mentioned in 1:12 are the representation of the seven churches in Asia that were written to in chapters 2-4 (Rev. 2:5).

Neither do I!! There is a hierarchy. It goes like this:
1. GOD (YHWH)
2. Jesus
3. Man
4. Woman
Then why ask the question:
How come the scriptures say that God is the head of the Christ as Christ is the head of the man and man head of the woman, if they are all co-equal?
It would seem that if you don't believe that they are "all co-equal" and you don't know of any christian doctrines that do, it would seem like a waste of space and finger energy to ask a question like that.

So is he saying that the God of his disciples is different from his God? I thought they worshipped the same one…
Show me a verse where Jesus actually worshipped, under it's true definition, God .


Sincerely,
SolideoGloria
 

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
John 17:5 (Worldwide English (New Testament)
So now, Father, let my name be great with you. Make my name as great as it was when I was with you before the world was made.

John 17:5 (Amplified Bible)
5And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

John 17:5 (New Life Version)
5Now, Father, honor Me with the honor I had with You before the world was made.

John 17:5 (Contemporary English Version)
5Now, Father, give me back the glory that I had with you before the world was created.


It looks more like he is requesting to be restored back to his former glory. That his father would look at him how he used to look at him. Not that he wanted equal glory once back in heaven. Just to have his previous glory restored.
That depends on how you define "with you" or "along with yourself". This seems like a good enough spot to deal with your interesting choice of versions of the Bible. Since your favorite version of the Bible seems to be the New Living Translation, evident by how many times it has been used in the post of yours that I have quoted, that is what I will start with.

At the beginning of the NLT Bible and most Bibles there is a section titled "Introduction to..." where there is usually an explaination of methods/philosophies of translation and which method the certain Bible decided to use. In the NLT, it goes on to state that there are two "general theroies or methods of Bible translation". It then explains the difference between "formal equivalence" an attempt to "render each word of the original language into the receptor language and seeks to preserve the original word order and sentence structure as much as possible". The next explaination the NLT gives is of what it calls "dynamic" and/or "functional equivalence" where the goal is "to produce in the receptor language the closest natural equivalent of the message expressed by the original language text-both in meaning and in style."

The NLT then goes on to explain that it decided to use the "dynamic equivalence" method when it rendered it's version of the Bible. The New International Version by Zondervan Publishing makes the same claim while the New American Standard Version claims to use the "formal equivalence" method. Now, where most versions make an interesting note is when it comes to the rendering of idioms:
*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Idiom \Id"i*om\ ([i^]d"[i^]*[u^]m), n. [F. idiome, L. idioma,
fr. Gr. 'idi`wma, fr. 'idioy^n to make a person's own, to
make proper or peculiar; fr. 'i`dios one's own, proper,
peculiar; prob. akin to the reflexive pronoun o"y^, o'i^,
'e`, and to "eo`s, 'o`s, one's own, L. suus, and to E. so.]
1. The syntactical or structural form peculiar to any
language; the genius or cast of a language.
[1913 Webster]

Idiom may be employed loosely and figuratively as a
synonym of language or dialect, but in its proper
sense it signifies the totality of the general rules
of construction which characterize the syntax of a
particular language and distinguish it from other
tongues. --G. P. Marsh.
[1913 Webster]

By idiom is meant the use of words which is peculiar
to a particular language. --J. H.
Newman.
[1913 Webster]

He followed their language [the Latin], but did not
comply with the idiom of ours. --Dryden.
[1913 Webster]

2. An expression conforming or appropriate to the peculiar
structural form of a language.
[1913 Webster]

Some that with care true eloquence shall teach,
And to just idioms fix our doubtful speech. --Prior.
[1913 Webster]

3. A combination of words having a meaning peculiar to itself
and not predictable as a combination of the meanings of
the individual words, but sanctioned by usage; as, an
idiomatic expression; less commonly, a single word used in
a peculiar sense.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

It is not by means of rules that such idioms as the
following are made current: "I can make nothing of
it." "He treats his subject home." --Dryden. "It is
that within us that makes for righteousness." --M.
Arnold. --Gostwick
(Eng. Gram.)
[1913 Webster]

Sometimes we identify the words with the object --
though by courtesy of idiom rather than in strict
propriety of language. --Coleridge.
[1913 Webster]

4. The phrase forms peculiar to a particular author; as,
written in his own idiom.
[1913 Webster]

Every good writer has much idiom. --Landor.
[1913 Webster]

5. Dialect; a variant form of a language.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Dialect.

Usage: {Idiom}, {Dialect}. The idioms of a language belong to
its very structure; its dialects are varieties of
expression ingrafted upon it in different localities
or by different professions. Each county of England
has some peculiarities of dialect, and so have most of
the professions, while the great idioms of the
language are everywhere the same. See {Language}.
Idiomatic

This is also where there is pretty big debates between versions. Take for instance, the NLV's version of John 8:58 as you quoted above. While the NIV claims to have used the same mehtod of translation as the NLT, it still renders this idiom that had multiple definitions to it as "... before Abraham was born, I am!" Now what is also interesting is that in the NIV's introduction while there is an explaination of it's method of translation, there is also a validation of who actually did the translation and the specific details they went through to render this version, unlike the NLT. Now, some have called the NLT and most of the other tranlsations you have used in your post paraphrases which when studied shows to be more definitionally true of the NLT and the other translations you quoted.

The most interesting thing to take note of, though, is that for a few years now, there has been a debate going on over some people's belief that the King James Version of the Bible is the only reliable version of the Bible for the English language. Once again, a major issue of debate in this debate has been the various english versions treatment of the divinity of Jesus Christ. It has been found that most of the paraphrase versions of the Bible like the NLT, CEV, etc. treat the divinity of Jesus as almost non existent. For more information on this check out http://aomin.org/index.php?catid=6 . So is it a suprise that the versions of the Bible you tend to quote and claim "renders it more appropriately" are these versions? Hardly

Sincerely,
SolideoGloria
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Fill and aquarium with water and put it above eye level. Look up through the glass and what do you see? A mirror. You can't see beyond it. Now have someone stand on the other side of the aquarium and put their arms in it on each side. Notice 'two distinct beings' breaking into your field of view? Yet outside of the aquarium, they are one and the same.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
Fill and aquarium with water and put it above eye level. Look up through the glass and what do you see? A mirror. You can't see beyond it. Now have someone stand on the other side of the aquarium and put their arms in it on each side. Notice 'two distinct beings' breaking into your field of view? Yet outside of the aquarium, they are one and the same.
Sounds fishy to me.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ThisShouldMakeSense said:
why thank you! if only some other people would too...:canadian:
The doctrine of the Trinity will never make sense to you because it is a man-made doctrine. God wants us to know Him. He wants us to understand Him. Those individuals who established the doctrine of the Trinity created a God who cannot be understood, no matter how many analogies are used to explain Him. It doesn't matter whether you're talking eggs, water or clover leaves. According to people who believe this doctrine, we're not supposed to be able to understand God. When you look at the Trinity doctrine in terms of it clarifying the nature of a God we were never meant to be able to understand in the first place, you'll have to admit it succeeded in a very big way!

God is our Father in Heaven! We are His children! How many truly loving fathers do you know who don't want their children to understand and know them? I can assure you that Jesus's followers in 34 A.D. understood God far, far better than His followers in 325 A.D. did!

Davy Crocket knows what he's talking about. I believe I said much the same thing when you first started this thread. I just stopped posting because, after awhile, you've said everything you can possibly say. If people are absolutely convinced that what they believe is right, logic will get you nowhere in trying to reason with them.

At any rate, you are not alone in recognizing that there is something wrong with the doctrine of the Trinity. (I know of at least 12 million people worldwide who share your perspective. ;) )

Kathryn
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
AV1611 said:
Fill and aquarium with water and put it above eye level. Look up through the glass and what do you see? A mirror. You can't see beyond it. Now have someone stand on the other side of the aquarium and put their arms in it on each side. Notice 'two distinct beings' breaking into your field of view? Yet outside of the aquarium, they are one and the same.
That's right. But only one of them is real.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Katzpur said:
The doctrine of the Trinity will never make sense to you because it is a man-made doctrine. God wants us to know Him. He wants us to understand Him. Those individuals who established the doctrine of the Trinity created a God who cannot be understood, no matter how many analogies are used to explain Him. It doesn't matter whether you're talking eggs, water, clover leaves or hands in a goldfish bowl. According to people who believe this doctrine, we're not supposed to be able to understand God. When you look at the Trinity doctrine in terms of it clarifying the nature of a God we were never meant to be able to understand in the first place, you'll have to admit it succeeded in a very big way!

God is our Father in Heaven! We are His children! How many truly loving fathers do you know who don't want their children to understand and know them? I can assure you that Jesus's followers in 34 A.D. understood God far, far better than His followers in 325 A.D. did!

Davy Crocket knows what he's talking about. I believe I said much the same thing when you first started this thread. I just stopped posting because, after awhile, you've said everything you can possibly say. If people are absolutely convinced that what they believe is right, logic will get you nowhere in trying to reason with them.

At any rate, you are not alone in recognizing that there is something wrong with the doctrine of the Trinity. (I know of at least 12 million people worldwide who share your perspective. ;) )

Kathryn
Now she tells me! *wipes sweat off brow* - after all this time, just when I thought I was getting somewhere...........:p

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm,is where I still find the best expalanation for me. And I understand it now..*oops there's a pig just flown past the window, outside*:biglaugh:
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Katzpur said:
That's right. But only one of them is real.
And which one would that be, Katzpur? The right or left arm? Or the person standing behind the aquarium with no arms? I'm not sure what you meant.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
AV1611 said:
And which one would that be, Katzpur? The right or left arm? Or the person standing behind the aquarium with no arms? I'm not sure what you meant.
Obviously, I didn't understand your analogy. I apologize.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Katzpur said:
Obviously, I didn't understand your analogy. I apologize.
Ain't no thang. You didn't owe me an apology.

BTW, I love that avatar.

Wife and I are cat lovers. We have 4 ourselves (which are 3 too many)!
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SPLogan said:
"There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one God, the same substance, equal in power and glory" - Westminister Shorter Catechism

3 in 1
I think there are many threads so far talking about sonship and stuff so far but my question is how is it possible that they are equal in power and glory and in john 5:30 we can see this: "I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me."

I know that you used to it and you think this is the truth and i understand that but only for seconds will you think of this verse? what does it mean ??
 
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