AK4
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Do you understand the New Testament
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AK4
Well-Known Member
freespirit
Yes discipline from the Lord is painful but it is for our good, but the like of Esau he will not save.
So you believe God is loving, fair and full of justice right? Is it fair and justice if God wont save the likes of Esau and company because HE CREATED THEM TO BE VESSELS OF DISHONOR? Imagine if your were one of those vessels of dishonor and at the Judgment God says to you “you serve your purpose for what I needed to save others who now can go into eternal bliss. You on the other, BEING THE VESSEL OF DISHONOR I CREATED and did exactly what I created you for, will be burned and tortured for eternity (or if you are a JW or the likes, will be annihilated for ever never to taste life again).
I understand his plan from another prospective, in a way we speak the same, like the 4 Gospels they are different and yet they are speaking about the same person.
Im sorry, my friend we cant be speaking the same Gospel/Good News. My God will save everyone and everything, both heavenly and earthly like the scriptures say. He is responsible for giving man “an experience of evil” so we can be humbled when He becomes “all in all” and gives us His all throughout eternity. Now that’s a Gospel/good news even for those who have been created as vessels of dishonor in this age,ages past and the upcoming ages to look forward to.
Yes discipline from the Lord is painful but it is for our good, but the like of Esau he will not save.
So you believe God is loving, fair and full of justice right? Is it fair and justice if God wont save the likes of Esau and company because HE CREATED THEM TO BE VESSELS OF DISHONOR? Imagine if your were one of those vessels of dishonor and at the Judgment God says to you “you serve your purpose for what I needed to save others who now can go into eternal bliss. You on the other, BEING THE VESSEL OF DISHONOR I CREATED and did exactly what I created you for, will be burned and tortured for eternity (or if you are a JW or the likes, will be annihilated for ever never to taste life again).
I understand his plan from another prospective, in a way we speak the same, like the 4 Gospels they are different and yet they are speaking about the same person.
Im sorry, my friend we cant be speaking the same Gospel/Good News. My God will save everyone and everything, both heavenly and earthly like the scriptures say. He is responsible for giving man “an experience of evil” so we can be humbled when He becomes “all in all” and gives us His all throughout eternity. Now that’s a Gospel/good news even for those who have been created as vessels of dishonor in this age,ages past and the upcoming ages to look forward to.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO AK4
I can see your point neverdeless our free will is there for us to use if so we choose. We read in Hebrews 10: 26, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.) WILLFULLY is the key word here.
We read in Hebrews 4: 6, "since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formally had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience."
You must agree that to disobey one requires to have a free will.
But I do agree with you that slaves, or prisoners have no free will: like the slave of the flesh must obey the flesh, likewise the slave of righteousness must obey righteousness.
I believe that the five ministry of God make the believer slave to righteousness, those are also the first fruit that has come in before the harvester. I wrote this article some years ago, maybe it will trow some light on the matter.
We all know that the day of Pentecost is the beginning, of the gathering of the first fruits. But not many of us know that, those first fruits among other things have been chosen to share the suffering of Christ. Thus we must understand and recognise that among those who have believed, there are some who are chosen by God as first fruits, as James 1: 18 says; “In the exercise of his will he brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among his creatures.”
We must also understand, that this privilege of being chosen as first fruits from among believers does not come without cost, for we read in Philippians 1: 29: “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake.”These scripture is the confirmation that some of us are called to do more than believe, and it is confirmed also in acts 5: 41, for we read: “So they went on their way from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for his name.”
We can be certain that the first fruits appear no different from those that have believed, apparently only their ministry is different, for in 2nd Corinthians 4: 7 to 12, Paul explains the existing difference of the ministry for he says, “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves: we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus; that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live (for the Word) are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, (who minister the word)but life in you.”(who believe.)
2nd Corinthians 1: 5 to 6, is also specific that the ministry is united with the suffering of Christ, for it says, “For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ. But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings, which we also suffer.” We can see from Paul’s writings that the five ministries of God’s Grace appear to be reserved for the first fruits, because the ministry and ministers are both gifts to men and to humanity, for we read in Galatians 1: 15 to 16: “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.”
The phrases “He who had set me apart, and that I might preach him” makes it clear that he is the one that chooses, confirms and appoints; this line of thought is also reinforced by Ephesians 4: 7 to 12, for it say; “But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, when he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men. And he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers. For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.” Just consider that the apostles Peter, Paul, James, etc., they all identified themselves in the epistles as bondservants of God, or prisoners of Christ Jesus, in other words captives.
And 1st Corinthians 15: 20 to 23, is very explicit about the closeness of the first fruits to Christ, for it says, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead; and also the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ, the first fruits, after those who are Christ’s at his coming.” (Note the plural of “first fruits,” and that it is referring to converts maturing before the harvest.)
In John 11: 23 to 26, Jesus gives a glimpse of the subtle difference of those that have fallen asleep believing in Christ, and those who are the first fruits, by saying, “Jesus said to her, your brother shall rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Jesus in the above scripture distinguishes two groups, the believer, and those who believe and live (or experience) Christ’s life. Because what we read in Galatians 2: 20, is very graphic of the life of Christ manifested in Paul’s life, for it says, “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself up for me.” So, from these scriptures we can be certain that those who believe, and live the life of Christ shall never die. (Do not misunderstand me: for their body goes to sleep until resurrection day, it is their spirit that lives on to God.)
Again in Revelation 14: 1 to 5, we find the first fruits very close to God, for we read in verse 4: “These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, (or sin) for they have kept themselves chaste (or have denied themselves during the regeneration.) These are the ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.” And we read in, Romans 8: 23: “And not only this, but also we ourselves, being the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body.” So the body of those that are the “first fruits of the spirit” like everyone else has to wait for the day of the resurrection.
We can confidently say then, that the aim of sanctification of the first fruits is total of spirit, soul, and body; and in that order they are redeemed. For our spirit is sanctified the instant we believe and confess the Lords deeds and divinity, our soul is sanctified gradually, from glory to glory. In other words at the speed we care to repent, (or cleanse our mind, in obedience to the Holy Spirit.) Also for our body to be sanctified, it is necessary that its appetites become submissive to our sanctified spirit and soul.
Our Lord has revealed a possible scale and degree of repentance, or holiness if you like by saying in Matthew 13: 23: “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil this is the Man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” It is worthy of note that our spirit, soul, and body form our whole person. It is also up to us to preserve the whole person for the Lord, for we read in 1st Thessalonians 5: 23, Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Glory to God
I can see your point neverdeless our free will is there for us to use if so we choose. We read in Hebrews 10: 26, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.) WILLFULLY is the key word here.
We read in Hebrews 4: 6, "since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formally had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience."
You must agree that to disobey one requires to have a free will.
But I do agree with you that slaves, or prisoners have no free will: like the slave of the flesh must obey the flesh, likewise the slave of righteousness must obey righteousness.
I believe that the five ministry of God make the believer slave to righteousness, those are also the first fruit that has come in before the harvester. I wrote this article some years ago, maybe it will trow some light on the matter.
THE FIRST FRUITS
We all know that the day of Pentecost is the beginning, of the gathering of the first fruits. But not many of us know that, those first fruits among other things have been chosen to share the suffering of Christ. Thus we must understand and recognise that among those who have believed, there are some who are chosen by God as first fruits, as James 1: 18 says; “In the exercise of his will he brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among his creatures.”
We must also understand, that this privilege of being chosen as first fruits from among believers does not come without cost, for we read in Philippians 1: 29: “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake.”These scripture is the confirmation that some of us are called to do more than believe, and it is confirmed also in acts 5: 41, for we read: “So they went on their way from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for his name.”
We can be certain that the first fruits appear no different from those that have believed, apparently only their ministry is different, for in 2nd Corinthians 4: 7 to 12, Paul explains the existing difference of the ministry for he says, “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves: we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus; that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live (for the Word) are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, (who minister the word)but life in you.”(who believe.)
2nd Corinthians 1: 5 to 6, is also specific that the ministry is united with the suffering of Christ, for it says, “For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ. But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings, which we also suffer.” We can see from Paul’s writings that the five ministries of God’s Grace appear to be reserved for the first fruits, because the ministry and ministers are both gifts to men and to humanity, for we read in Galatians 1: 15 to 16: “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.”
The phrases “He who had set me apart, and that I might preach him” makes it clear that he is the one that chooses, confirms and appoints; this line of thought is also reinforced by Ephesians 4: 7 to 12, for it say; “But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, when he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men. And he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers. For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.” Just consider that the apostles Peter, Paul, James, etc., they all identified themselves in the epistles as bondservants of God, or prisoners of Christ Jesus, in other words captives.
And 1st Corinthians 15: 20 to 23, is very explicit about the closeness of the first fruits to Christ, for it says, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead; and also the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ, the first fruits, after those who are Christ’s at his coming.” (Note the plural of “first fruits,” and that it is referring to converts maturing before the harvest.)
In John 11: 23 to 26, Jesus gives a glimpse of the subtle difference of those that have fallen asleep believing in Christ, and those who are the first fruits, by saying, “Jesus said to her, your brother shall rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Jesus in the above scripture distinguishes two groups, the believer, and those who believe and live (or experience) Christ’s life. Because what we read in Galatians 2: 20, is very graphic of the life of Christ manifested in Paul’s life, for it says, “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself up for me.” So, from these scriptures we can be certain that those who believe, and live the life of Christ shall never die. (Do not misunderstand me: for their body goes to sleep until resurrection day, it is their spirit that lives on to God.)
Again in Revelation 14: 1 to 5, we find the first fruits very close to God, for we read in verse 4: “These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, (or sin) for they have kept themselves chaste (or have denied themselves during the regeneration.) These are the ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.” And we read in, Romans 8: 23: “And not only this, but also we ourselves, being the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body.” So the body of those that are the “first fruits of the spirit” like everyone else has to wait for the day of the resurrection.
We can confidently say then, that the aim of sanctification of the first fruits is total of spirit, soul, and body; and in that order they are redeemed. For our spirit is sanctified the instant we believe and confess the Lords deeds and divinity, our soul is sanctified gradually, from glory to glory. In other words at the speed we care to repent, (or cleanse our mind, in obedience to the Holy Spirit.) Also for our body to be sanctified, it is necessary that its appetites become submissive to our sanctified spirit and soul.
Our Lord has revealed a possible scale and degree of repentance, or holiness if you like by saying in Matthew 13: 23: “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil this is the Man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” It is worthy of note that our spirit, soul, and body form our whole person. It is also up to us to preserve the whole person for the Lord, for we read in 1st Thessalonians 5: 23, Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Glory to God
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO AK4
AK4) 1 John 1:8-10, "8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
FS) We read in 1st. John 3: 4 to 6, "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. and you know that he appeared in order to take away sins; and in him there is no sin. no one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or knows him."
AK4) So in one breath John says one thing and in the other the opposite right? Is this a contradiction? No, but it takes understanding to know what this all means. Its all one and both are true. Im interested in seeing what you think on those two passages. 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 3:4-6
FS) Verse 8, I understand it means that if we say that Sin or (temptation) is not in us we lie. Verse 9, I understand to mean that if we are bumble and confess our short comings he will forgive us. Verse 10, I understand it to mean that if we claim to have never sinned we lie.
AK4 all depend were we are at spiritually, Like you can be in the child stage, so your sins will be forgiven you, pronto. or you could be in the young man stage, and you are winning the fights of faith, or you could be in the mature stage, you should know better, therefore you sin at your own peril.
1st. John 3: 4 to 6, to see him or know him, is to enter the slave or prisoner stage, in which you cannot sin. Paul, Peter, James etc. etc. they did claim to be prisoners of Christ Jesus.
As you can see our will is engaged in the gradual process until we became slaves or prisoners of Christ, then we can boldly say "it is not I that live but Christ lives in me"
AK4) 1 John 1:8-10, "8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
FS) We read in 1st. John 3: 4 to 6, "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. and you know that he appeared in order to take away sins; and in him there is no sin. no one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or knows him."
AK4) So in one breath John says one thing and in the other the opposite right? Is this a contradiction? No, but it takes understanding to know what this all means. Its all one and both are true. Im interested in seeing what you think on those two passages. 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 3:4-6
FS) Verse 8, I understand it means that if we say that Sin or (temptation) is not in us we lie. Verse 9, I understand to mean that if we are bumble and confess our short comings he will forgive us. Verse 10, I understand it to mean that if we claim to have never sinned we lie.
AK4 all depend were we are at spiritually, Like you can be in the child stage, so your sins will be forgiven you, pronto. or you could be in the young man stage, and you are winning the fights of faith, or you could be in the mature stage, you should know better, therefore you sin at your own peril.
1st. John 3: 4 to 6, to see him or know him, is to enter the slave or prisoner stage, in which you cannot sin. Paul, Peter, James etc. etc. they did claim to be prisoners of Christ Jesus.
As you can see our will is engaged in the gradual process until we became slaves or prisoners of Christ, then we can boldly say "it is not I that live but Christ lives in me"
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
To AK4
So ask yourself honestly, was his will free from boasting or not? Was he given a thorn to influence/inspire/force/persuade/make/keep him from exalting himself? Remember Paul said he wanted to boast, but the thorn (a cause to influence his will) kept him from doing it. Can you see how his will was not free? Could Paul still boast after God gave him this thorn with his free will? Was Pauls free will stronger than God so that he could have boasted? No, yet many will still argue that he still had a choice in the matter. That he could have had basically his free will verses Gods will and could have beaten God. Yet no one truly thinks deeply on what they say when it comes to this doctrine of free will.
I believe that the thorn in the flesh, were those that persecuted and insulted Paul.
Because in that situation Paul has nothing to boast about: one can boast when the world accepts you, but if the world does not accept your idea you have no recognition to boast about. however your inner boasting and knowledge does not change. In other words the Lord protected Paul from the sin of arrogance (like, I am holier then you)
So ask yourself honestly, was his will free from boasting or not? Was he given a thorn to influence/inspire/force/persuade/make/keep him from exalting himself? Remember Paul said he wanted to boast, but the thorn (a cause to influence his will) kept him from doing it. Can you see how his will was not free? Could Paul still boast after God gave him this thorn with his free will? Was Pauls free will stronger than God so that he could have boasted? No, yet many will still argue that he still had a choice in the matter. That he could have had basically his free will verses Gods will and could have beaten God. Yet no one truly thinks deeply on what they say when it comes to this doctrine of free will.
I believe that the thorn in the flesh, were those that persecuted and insulted Paul.
Because in that situation Paul has nothing to boast about: one can boast when the world accepts you, but if the world does not accept your idea you have no recognition to boast about. however your inner boasting and knowledge does not change. In other words the Lord protected Paul from the sin of arrogance (like, I am holier then you)
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AK4
Well-Known Member
I can agree with this. Our sins are already forgiven, yet there is the stages of repentance and then cleansing one must go through. But I guess what I am trying to see if you get the why one cannot sin. In otherwords (here is the clue) if one is doing the will of God, can he sin? And if one is doing the Gods Will and is His slave how does this make one have a free will? Here is the definition of the greek word used in by John in verse 8 to consider:
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO AK4
I can agree with this. Our sins are already forgiven, yet there is the stages of repentance and then cleansing one must go through. But I guess what I am trying to see if you get the “why” one cannot sin. In otherwords (here is the clue) if one is doing the will of God, can he sin? And if one is doing the Gods Will and is His “slave” how does this make one have a free will? Here is the definition of the greek word used in by John in verse 8 to consider:
Quote:
Sin (Noun and Verb) [Noun]
(b) a governing principle or power, e.g., Rom_6:6; "(the body) of sin,"
Yes "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, that our body (or substance ) of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin." AK4 a dead person cannot respond to temptation, in other words if our body or substance is dead to temptation we cannot longer sin, even if temptation is not dead.
(c) a generic term (distinct from specific terms such as hamartema yet sometimes inclusive of concrete wrong doing, e.g., John_8:21,34,46; John_9:41; John_15:22,24; John_19:11); in Rom_8:3,
(d) a sinful deed, an act of "sin," e.g., Matt_12:31; Acts_7:60; James_1:15 (1st part); James_2:9; James_4:17; James_5:15,20; 1_John_5:16 (1st part).
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
I can agree with this. Our sins are already forgiven, yet there is the stages of repentance and then cleansing one must go through. But I guess what I am trying to see if you get the “why” one cannot sin. In otherwords (here is the clue) if one is doing the will of God, can he sin? And if one is doing the Gods Will and is His “slave” how does this make one have a free will? Here is the definition of the greek word used in by John in verse 8 to consider:
Quote:
Sin (Noun and Verb) [Noun]
Religious people who follow a doctrine of righteousness are "missing the mark" some time they are sooooo close but unfortunately they fail. They stumbled over the stumbling stone of faith.
Our inborn nature through Adam is to sin and die, but Christ reversed what Adam did, so now through Christ the world has been justified to life. Therefore all will come to life again, and all will be judged for the deeds we have done in the flesh: remember AK4 that all men knows good and evil, therefore they can be judged for what they choose to do. Even if our flesh drives us to sin our soul should recognize it as sin, by doing that the believer is no longer guilty, but if the believer abandons himself to the pleasures of sin he is guilty of these sins. Romans 7: 15,16,17.
(b) a governing principle or power, e.g., Rom_6:6; "(the body) of sin,"
Yes "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, that our body (or substance ) of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin." AK4 a dead person cannot respond to temptation, in other words if our body or substance is dead to temptation we cannot longer sin, even if temptation is not dead.
(c) a generic term (distinct from specific terms such as hamartema yet sometimes inclusive of concrete wrong doing, e.g., John_8:21,34,46; John_9:41; John_15:22,24; John_19:11); in Rom_8:3,
(d) a sinful deed, an act of "sin," e.g., Matt_12:31; Acts_7:60; James_1:15 (1st part); James_2:9; James_4:17; James_5:15,20; 1_John_5:16 (1st part).
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
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AK4
Well-Known Member
There is a way to really know what Pauls splinter in the flesh was and why he was given it. You have to go to the original greek to know why and what it was. The things you mentioned above did happen to Paul but its not the why he had this splinter or what it was. His splinter had to be a messenger from satan and the reason he was given this splinter/messenger was because of his transcendent revelations. This is how God kept him humble.
AK4
Well-Known Member
This kinda hits hard at the freewill thing. The scriptures say we have been justified just as you have said. How were we justified? Through Christ sacrifice right? Yup. Now remember, Christ was slain physically in the flesh 2000 years ago, but according to His Plan He was slain from the foundation of world. So in other words we were justified EVEN BEFORE WE WERE CREATED. So that brings us back to what are we justified from. Sin or in other words missing the mark. How so? Well (really its real beautiful if you can see it, but its hard to express it in short details) we are justified by faith (and all that it entails).
Faith that realizes what God, through His Son is doing (His plan) and that since we have no free will to do anything other than what He had predetermined/predestined---then how can one “miss the mark”? You have to understand God controls everything through circumstances every minute detail and yes we have choices but God will put the circumstances in front of you where you will choose what He has predetermined so His Plan will come to fruition. That’s how and why He can prophecy.
So anyway, Why by faith? Well when one truly has the faith they understand why we were “subjected to vanity” and given “an experience of evil” and how one cannot sin because their will is no where free to do anything other than what God planned, whether if they keep the faith or fall away, they know its all of God. This is where grace, hope, praying without ceasing, and …
Php 2:21 …….continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, (why) 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
So you don’t know what God has predetermined for you. So we are justified by faith because we know there isn’t a freedom of the will to thwart/change what God has predetermined for us. To feel as if you can choose something contrary to what God has predetermined makes one think/act like he is a god---one believes he possesses powers that only God has.
Faith is not just believing in God and His Son. Faith is also entails believing what the Word plainly says of God and His Son. For example when God is using Paul to speak for Him, God is basically saying in Php 2:13 “for it is Iwho works in you to will and do of my good pleasure”---this verse alone everyone should see that they don’t have a free will or free choice or free moral agency, yet god provides plenty more verses to back this up. Or like in Isa 45:7 “….I (God) create evil”---yet nobody wants to believe that God does indeed use evil, and they wont believe that God created him this way. They would rather believe the fairy tale that A lucifer with his fabled free will rebelled against God and changed into satan when we are told that he was a “liar from the beginning” and there was “never any truth in him” or even the plethora of verses where He says He will save ALL MEN yet people distort this plain and wonderful truth by saying its only some or as many as. Not of that stuff is true faith.
Anyway we are justified and ultimately can become sinless through faith because God made us this way, planned everything to go the way it is going so end the end we will learn righteousness and that He will have mercy on all. Its grieves Him that this plan had to be done this way (cant remember where that verse is), but He knows that in order for mankind to get the “fruits of God” this experience was necessary.
If you can see this you can see why we are justified and was justified from the beginning and that takes faith, lots of it and this is only given by God and not from some ones free will or free choice.
Yes this is correct. Notice what I have next to my picture “buried with Christ”. Many religious people believe that the physical ritual of baptism is the baptism that counts. Its only a symbol.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
To AK4
Okey say that I accept that we have no free will, where to from here? how do I know what God wants me to do, for I am inspired to do good and to do bad.
So, now what? You have taken away from me the motivation to do anything, and the satisfaction that my choice can make a difference. without my free will I have became inert, no personality, no individuality, I have became a virtual robot, I have been stripped of God's son-ship and freedom. Why should God reward me for what I did not do.
please explain to me how do I function now.
I have heard of many gullible faithfuls been manipulated by unscrupulous pastors, they are so much under the pastor and his associates influence that they have no will of their own left, a very dangerous situation indeed.
please remember the muss suicide of gullible Americans in Columbia I think? in the 1960's. dangerous religious sets strep's the believer of his individuality, like JW, or the LDS, or the exclusive brethren; in America there is a good breading ground for such groups.
Okey say that I accept that we have no free will, where to from here? how do I know what God wants me to do, for I am inspired to do good and to do bad.
So, now what? You have taken away from me the motivation to do anything, and the satisfaction that my choice can make a difference. without my free will I have became inert, no personality, no individuality, I have became a virtual robot, I have been stripped of God's son-ship and freedom. Why should God reward me for what I did not do.
please explain to me how do I function now.
I have heard of many gullible faithfuls been manipulated by unscrupulous pastors, they are so much under the pastor and his associates influence that they have no will of their own left, a very dangerous situation indeed.
please remember the muss suicide of gullible Americans in Columbia I think? in the 1960's. dangerous religious sets strep's the believer of his individuality, like JW, or the LDS, or the exclusive brethren; in America there is a good breading ground for such groups.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
yes I think I know what the splinter is: it could be a piece of wood festering in your body, or it could be a pain in the neck, or it could be a relentless annoying person, or it could be an evil spirit telling Paul that he was just a man, or could be a spirit that had the power to influence evil people to maltreat Paul when he spoke the pure truth. For how such a man can know these things.
Jesus was crucified for saying the truth, Stephen was stoned for telling the truth, the world does not want to know the truth.
By the way, if Paul did not have a free will then the splinter was not necessary.
I have even heard that someone suggested that the thorn in the flesh was Paul's sexual perversion.
We read in 2nd. Corinthians 12:
7 And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, to keep me from exalting myself!
8 Concerning this I entreated the lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And he has said to me. My grace is sufficient for you, for power is MANIFESTED in MEEKNESS. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my MEEKNESS, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with HUMILIATION: With insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am HUMBLE, then I am strong.
AK4 I believe that Verse 10 is describing the effects and works of the thorn in the flesh.
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I like Aquinas explanation for the reason for human’s free will in the Summa:
I answer that, Man has free will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.
And this one: Those words of the Apostle are not to be taken as though man does not wish or does not run of his free will, but because the free will is not sufficient thereto unless it be moved and helped by God.
There is the argument that accepting that humans have free will means that we believe that that God is not Almighty, but this is not the case, what this means is that we can disobey. The consequences of this punishment/correction.
I answer that, Man has free will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.
And this one: Those words of the Apostle are not to be taken as though man does not wish or does not run of his free will, but because the free will is not sufficient thereto unless it be moved and helped by God.
There is the argument that accepting that humans have free will means that we believe that that God is not Almighty, but this is not the case, what this means is that we can disobey. The consequences of this punishment/correction.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
The good news is that now we can obtain eternal life through Jesus Christ. John 1:12, "but as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."
Jesus was not coerced to do his will, Jesus was delighted to do his will
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Ive been thinking on these words I will rather boast about my MEEKNESS, that the power of Christ may dwell in me In my opinion this is related to what the Lord discoursed on the mount.
The Lord said to Paul My grace is sufficient for you, for power is MANIFESTED in MEEKNESS the power that the Lord promised is the Holy Spirit indwelling in the believer and meekness is commanded for obtaining it as the apostle teaches elsewhere.
I think that the apostle was preaching what Augustine called the Law of Faith which is the work of Grace on the willing believer.
Psa 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
The Lord said to Paul My grace is sufficient for you, for power is MANIFESTED in MEEKNESS the power that the Lord promised is the Holy Spirit indwelling in the believer and meekness is commanded for obtaining it as the apostle teaches elsewhere.
I think that the apostle was preaching what Augustine called the Law of Faith which is the work of Grace on the willing believer.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO EMILIANO
Do you agree that verse 10 is Paul's thorn in the flesh?
We read in 2nd. Corinthians 12:
7 And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, to keep me from exalting myself!
8 Concerning this I entreated the lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And he has said to me. My grace is sufficient for you, for power is MANIFESTED in MEEKNESS. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my MEEKNESS, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with HUMILIATION: With insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am HUMBLE, then I am strong.
AK4 I believe that Verse 10 is describing the effects and works of the thorn in the flesh.
I have not read Augustine writing's but I know that Jesus and Paul was teaching those things before Augustine.
Do you agree that verse 10 is Paul's thorn in the flesh?
We read in 2nd. Corinthians 12:
7 And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, to keep me from exalting myself!
8 Concerning this I entreated the lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And he has said to me. My grace is sufficient for you, for power is MANIFESTED in MEEKNESS. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my MEEKNESS, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with HUMILIATION: With insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am HUMBLE, then I am strong.
AK4 I believe that Verse 10 is describing the effects and works of the thorn in the flesh.
I have not read Augustine writing's but I know that Jesus and Paul was teaching those things before Augustine.
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AK4
Well-Known Member
Im sorry for leaving you hanging the last couple of days. I be away from my computer for the weekends. I know how you feel, I felt the exactly the same way and also was concerned to with cults and if i was being brainwashed into this "thinking". I felt helpless, powerless and questioned the whole robot/puppet thing etc etc. Well i am at work right now so i will answer your questions in a little. I just wanted to respond so you wouldnt think i left you hanging.
To free spirit,
Yes I do, when you look at the treatment that the apostle make of the issue of the flesh influencing our mind to use our bodies to satisfy our pleasure even if it means disobeying our creator and giver of all that is good in us, the answer cannot be but yes the apostle is preaching on the issue of an undisciplined flesh and he even sees it as an enemy of the soul.
Humiliations, insults, distresses, persecutions, and difficulties, are physical (of the flesh) disturbances and is interesting to think that the Lord Himself submitted himself to them for us.
Yes Paul and others did this long before Augustine but there no cleared thinker than Augustine to guide a study of the word. I also like Aquinass works but I have problem because his are higher in philosophy.
Yes I do, when you look at the treatment that the apostle make of the issue of the flesh influencing our mind to use our bodies to satisfy our pleasure even if it means disobeying our creator and giver of all that is good in us, the answer cannot be but yes the apostle is preaching on the issue of an undisciplined flesh and he even sees it as an enemy of the soul.
Humiliations, insults, distresses, persecutions, and difficulties, are physical (of the flesh) disturbances and is interesting to think that the Lord Himself submitted himself to them for us.
Well he answered that to you already and it is that the concept of sin been our fault and not God is unacceptable to many people and this is due to several reasons, the main one been that God is obliged to save all as He created evil, so is Gods fault that we choose our free will to do what is bad/harmful.
.
Yes Paul and others did this long before Augustine but there no cleared thinker than Augustine to guide a study of the word. I also like Aquinass works but I have problem because his are higher in philosophy.
AK4
Well-Known Member
Freespirit
Okey say that I accept that we have no free will, where to from here?
Pray. Continue to search for more hidden treasure and pearl of great price. Continue to strive for the fruits of God. Dont just have the head knowledge of knowing what they are, but actually let them change/repent you. Let the fruits begin to humble you as the more you start know and understand and grow the more it will humble you and you begin to realize how much more you dont know, even though you know a lot more the what the world knows. Hope that makes sense.
how do I know what God wants me to do, for I am inspired to do good and to do bad.
Freespirit you already know the answer to this one. I can tell by most of your posts you already are ahead of most that call themselves Christians. Only thing is you still have some of the doctrines still ingrained. You have noticed some if not most of the obvious things/trickiness that satan has brought into the church, but now you need to find just how deep he really has infiltrated the church or as Rev 2:24 says the depths of satan in the church. As you uncover the depths of satan you start learning the depths of God or as Paul says yea the deep things of God. The doctrine of free will is at the heart of almost all the false doctrines. Almost every one of them can be linked to free will.
So, now what? You have taken away from me the motivation to do anything, and the satisfaction that my choice can make a difference. without my free will I have became inert, no personality, no individuality, I have became a virtual robot, I have been stripped of God's son-ship and freedom.
Let me get to the heart of it. Lets just say I am right on the free will thing. Now tell me, now that you know does it really change anything except now you will recognize God working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure? Except now you have to give God all the credit for the choices you end up making? Before you thought we had free will and you thought you did as you pleased, now if I am right, you still will make the choices and it will still feel like you did it all on your own, like nothing is influencing you. Will you still feel like a robot?
Think on this if we were like robots then we would not malfunction/sin because we would do exactly what our programming was, with no variation. A calculator is programmed to do exactly what it does and it cant deviate from that. We are a whole lot more complex than robots. Now again suppose I am still right. You say you have no motivationwhy because you have to recognize God in everything you do? Do you not get satisfaction and give God the credit already when something really good happens to you? What about the bad? What about even the smallest things like Him keeping you from coveting something you shouldnt? How about just waking you up in the morning? Etc etc. The thing is you do make the choices, millions of them. nobody else does it for you. When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
It is true, to humble oneself and let the real Ruler sit in His rightful place, in His temple, on His throne makes you feel all the emotions you stated above. Its probably the hardest truth to swallow because even us as parents teach our kids from birth free will. But It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth and when you start to accept and see it in the Word---see the doctrine of free will directly puts one at odds with the Sovereignty of God---you start seeing it in the world too. You start to see How its impossible for any human or anything to have a will that can freely will something out of nothing.
Heres the good news though, remember being set free and the real Ruler sit in His rightful place, in His temple, on His throne? Well what does Jesus say to those who overcome
Re 3:21 - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
this has to be is talking about after the resurrection because no one fully overcomes or know if they have been saved until they come up in the first resurrection yet we do get a taste of it before hand
Why should God reward me for what I did not do
Because you are the one who actually did it. We are accountable for our thoughts and actions, but He holds Himself responsible---after all He created us they way we are
please explain to me how do I function now.
Function like normal, but this time you have been given a new set of glasses and a brand new hearing aid to see and hear Gods Word. You have been given better tools and instruments to search out that hidden treasure. You have been given more info on how to find that pearl. Meditate on this and pray. It takes time---it took me what seemed like for ever to unlearn the trinity. Free will came easier but I still believe its the hardest for most to let go. Dont take my word for it. Read the bible (its loaded with examples of showing how Gods invisible hand is doing everything and how we think we have free will yet He shows us differently), but read the bible, several different versions and compare them and several concordances (you can download e-sword, its free and they provide all this and then some) and look at the meaning of the Hebrew and greek words and really the big thing is to pay close attention to ALL the words. This is how satan really infiltrated Gods wonderful message by subtlety changing the meaning of a few words like aion/aionis/olam really doing damage to the gospel, also adding and deleting words too. Realise that Jesus words are spirit and that He only speaks to the mulitudes in parables---thats not just back then when He showed up on the earth but also when He spoke in the OT through the prophets and in the NT through His apostles and even today while we read the words. That is why it is true, yet many will not believe, that the whole Word of God is one giant parable with parables inside of the parable. Yet Jesus said if you know one parable you can know them all and believe the churches out there dont even know the meaning of one. The multitudes are not meant to know the meaning of the parables yet in this age. Theres a lot more to it but really only through His spirit can understanding come.
Okey say that I accept that we have no free will, where to from here?
Pray. Continue to search for more hidden treasure and pearl of great price. Continue to strive for the fruits of God. Dont just have the head knowledge of knowing what they are, but actually let them change/repent you. Let the fruits begin to humble you as the more you start know and understand and grow the more it will humble you and you begin to realize how much more you dont know, even though you know a lot more the what the world knows. Hope that makes sense.
how do I know what God wants me to do, for I am inspired to do good and to do bad.
Freespirit you already know the answer to this one. I can tell by most of your posts you already are ahead of most that call themselves Christians. Only thing is you still have some of the doctrines still ingrained. You have noticed some if not most of the obvious things/trickiness that satan has brought into the church, but now you need to find just how deep he really has infiltrated the church or as Rev 2:24 says the depths of satan in the church. As you uncover the depths of satan you start learning the depths of God or as Paul says yea the deep things of God. The doctrine of free will is at the heart of almost all the false doctrines. Almost every one of them can be linked to free will.
So, now what? You have taken away from me the motivation to do anything, and the satisfaction that my choice can make a difference. without my free will I have became inert, no personality, no individuality, I have became a virtual robot, I have been stripped of God's son-ship and freedom.
Let me get to the heart of it. Lets just say I am right on the free will thing. Now tell me, now that you know does it really change anything except now you will recognize God working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure? Except now you have to give God all the credit for the choices you end up making? Before you thought we had free will and you thought you did as you pleased, now if I am right, you still will make the choices and it will still feel like you did it all on your own, like nothing is influencing you. Will you still feel like a robot?
Think on this if we were like robots then we would not malfunction/sin because we would do exactly what our programming was, with no variation. A calculator is programmed to do exactly what it does and it cant deviate from that. We are a whole lot more complex than robots. Now again suppose I am still right. You say you have no motivationwhy because you have to recognize God in everything you do? Do you not get satisfaction and give God the credit already when something really good happens to you? What about the bad? What about even the smallest things like Him keeping you from coveting something you shouldnt? How about just waking you up in the morning? Etc etc. The thing is you do make the choices, millions of them. nobody else does it for you. When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
It is true, to humble oneself and let the real Ruler sit in His rightful place, in His temple, on His throne makes you feel all the emotions you stated above. Its probably the hardest truth to swallow because even us as parents teach our kids from birth free will. But It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth and when you start to accept and see it in the Word---see the doctrine of free will directly puts one at odds with the Sovereignty of God---you start seeing it in the world too. You start to see How its impossible for any human or anything to have a will that can freely will something out of nothing.
Heres the good news though, remember being set free and the real Ruler sit in His rightful place, in His temple, on His throne? Well what does Jesus say to those who overcome
Re 3:21 - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
this has to be is talking about after the resurrection because no one fully overcomes or know if they have been saved until they come up in the first resurrection yet we do get a taste of it before hand
Why should God reward me for what I did not do
Because you are the one who actually did it. We are accountable for our thoughts and actions, but He holds Himself responsible---after all He created us they way we are
please explain to me how do I function now.
Function like normal, but this time you have been given a new set of glasses and a brand new hearing aid to see and hear Gods Word. You have been given better tools and instruments to search out that hidden treasure. You have been given more info on how to find that pearl. Meditate on this and pray. It takes time---it took me what seemed like for ever to unlearn the trinity. Free will came easier but I still believe its the hardest for most to let go. Dont take my word for it. Read the bible (its loaded with examples of showing how Gods invisible hand is doing everything and how we think we have free will yet He shows us differently), but read the bible, several different versions and compare them and several concordances (you can download e-sword, its free and they provide all this and then some) and look at the meaning of the Hebrew and greek words and really the big thing is to pay close attention to ALL the words. This is how satan really infiltrated Gods wonderful message by subtlety changing the meaning of a few words like aion/aionis/olam really doing damage to the gospel, also adding and deleting words too. Realise that Jesus words are spirit and that He only speaks to the mulitudes in parables---thats not just back then when He showed up on the earth but also when He spoke in the OT through the prophets and in the NT through His apostles and even today while we read the words. That is why it is true, yet many will not believe, that the whole Word of God is one giant parable with parables inside of the parable. Yet Jesus said if you know one parable you can know them all and believe the churches out there dont even know the meaning of one. The multitudes are not meant to know the meaning of the parables yet in this age. Theres a lot more to it but really only through His spirit can understanding come.