some help. please re the feeding of 4000, and also 5000......

Part 1.
I attended Church today, and the Vicar is one whom I particularly like (we have a "rotation" system in place with six or seven vicars alternating between churches locally.

I have tried to recall the full numbers interpretation the vicar gave for the feeding of the 5000, and also the feeding of the five thousand, but alas have forgotten some of the details.

I have found some sources which, I think, encompass pretty well the interpretation by the vicar...........
From:- The Prophet Elisha - Elijah's Succesor - Elisha
Some time later, a man came from Baal-Shalisha in Mount Ephraim, bringing a present to the prophet, bread of the first fruit, 20 barley loaves, and some ears of corn. Said Elisha to his attendant, "Give it to all the people gathered here!"
"There are two thousand of your disciples here," the man exclaimed in amazement, "shall I set one loaf before hundreds of men?"
"Give it to them" said the holy man again, "For this is the word of G-d: they will eat, and leave thereof!"
And so it was; they all ate and had enough, and some of the bread was left over!
In The Holy Bible Kings&Chapter=4
4:42 And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
4:43 And his servitor said, What, should I set this before an hundred men? He said again, Give the people, that they may eat: for thus saith the LORD, They shall eat, and shall leave thereof.
4:44 So he set it before them, and they did eat, and left thereof, according to the word of the LORD.
King James Bible


Taking this in conjunction with John 6.1-21

1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. 5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? 10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. 12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. 13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

Part two....

From :-Feeding the multitude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The two stories of the feeding of the multitude have long been thought to have hidden meaning, particularly due to Mark's later cryptic reference to them. Some scholars suggest in early times the feeding of the 5000 with 5 loaves was interpreted as being a reference to the five books of the Torah feeding the Jews, with the 12 scraps being the 12 tribes of Israel, or more usually the 12 disciples who, after Judaism, were left over. In view of the context of Mark's account of the first miracle, it is also possible that there is an implicit comparison with King David. David, when he first ran from King Saul, fed his small group of followers, those who acknowledged him as the rightful king, with the priest's bread, asking the priest "Give me 5 loaves, or whatever you have" (I Samuel 21:3). In Mark 6, Jesus "saw a great crowd, and he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd" (Mark 6:34), and he seated them on the "green grass" (Mark 6:39) in the middle of the wilderness. Under this interpretation, Jesus would be feeding those who wanted to hear his teaching, as the new David, and yet still having enough left over for all Israel besides (12 baskets of fragments/ 12 tribes of Israel in the Old Testament/ 12 apostles as the leaders of the "New Israel" in the New Testament).
The feeding of the 4000 was historically regarded as far more cryptic, and though there was generally an agreement that the 4000 probably would represent the gentiles, since their feeding followed after the one that had strong Jewish themes, there were various different interpretations of the 7s in the narrative; for example, one interpretation had the 7 leftovers being the 7 early major Christian geographic divisions and the 7 loaves as the Jewish menorah, representing the Temple, and so the temple being superseded by the Christian Churches. What is certain, however, is that Jesus placed some significance on the number of baskets of leftovers from both miracles (the feeding of the 4000 and 5000): "'Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? When I break the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?' They said unto him, 'Twelve.' 'And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?' And they said, 'Seven.' 'And He said unto them, 'How is it that ye do not understand?'"(Mark 8:18-21) He never explicitly states the interpretation of the numbers, but it is clear from this passage that he attaches some importance to them. When taken along with the Israelite connections of the first miracle, the 4000 could be taken to signify people from all over the earth (the earth, in a Jewish conceptual cosmology, has 4 corners). The number 7 often bears the significance of wholeness, completeness in the Old Testament. A full week has 7 days; on the 7th day, God rests because his work is finished. Then there are 7 baskets left over, because Jesus can meet the needs not only those who have come to him here, but the whole, complete earth besides.
However, some of these interpretations were often arbitrary, and many would not be plausible at the time the Gospels were written; the Torah, for example, was at that time considered only 1 book, and was not divided into 5 until later. In consequence, there has been much speculation that the correct interpretation might be along lines similar to cryptic writings of Greek mysticism, such as Platonism. For example, there have been several attempts throughout history to regard the numbers as an instruction set for creating a mystic diagram, taking the gematria of the text into account.
The very few scholars who interpret the episode as neither allegory, nor miraculous, nor as having encoded meaning, occasionally see the second story as simply being a doubling of the first, with only a few numbers changed.
In Mark chapter 8, in the passage that describes Jesus warning his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod" (v.15), it is significant that in the course of the ensuing conversation, Jesus refers retrospectively to both the feeding of the 5000 (v.19) and the feeding of the 4000 (v.20). This creates a difficulty for those who interpret the two passages as if they described the same event twice.
Do you see these two events as being indeed different, and separate?

Do you agree with the interpretations concerning the use of numbers?

No, I don't agree.

I believe Jesus was speaking of two different times there was a miraculous feeding.

interesting, I like that idea that "the 4000 could be taken to signify people from all over the earth (the earth, in a Jewish conceptual cosmology, has 4 corners). "

I think the events were separate. The four thousand clearly happens at a later time.

It's obvious that they are two separate events, since Christ refers to the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000 as two events. Makes sense to me, at least. The numerology never really made sense to me, though. It just seems like another of Christ's miracles, much like turning water to wine, raising the dead, etc, that were meant to show forth his power and help others in need. When he asks them about the numbers, it's not about the numbers themselves; the symbolism is in the bread and the leaven.

Since there is a story of feeding a large crowd of 5,000 or so in all 4 gospels this is probably based on something that did actually happen. There are clues in the story that may indicate another understanding. The disciples said to Jesus "it''s getting close to sundown, dismiss the crowd so they may find food and shelter for themselves". Jesus said to them "you give them something to eat". Since there were women and children in the crowd and they were out in the wilderness, it's possible many people in the crowd had food and many shared with others and because everyone shared what they had there was more than enough for everyone. It seems to me that this is a much better image of what Jesus wanted to church to be about than if he did a magic trick and manifested the food supernaturally.

This is akin to saying that all people under the astrological sign of Taurus are bull headed. It is an attribution that may or may not make sense. I doubt very much that God was figuring out how he could get the numbers right so that people would believe in numerology.

As far as the numbers themselves, it appears obvious to me by the evenness of the numbers that a physical head count was not done. It is most likely an estimate similar to the way crowds are estimated at events in Washington, DC. Sometimes those numbers are embellished to enhance a political view but if the Apostles wished to make the crowd bigger it seems that 5,000 would be too small a number so I am hazarding a guess that they accurately estimated the crowd.

I can see where the numbers are significant. Maybe a few fish and loaves could be distributed among a few hundred people but it would take a miracle to feed thousands with that much.

The feeding of the 5000 took place among the Jews. The twelve baskets left over represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

The feeding of the 4000 took place among the gentles and the 7 baskets left over represent the 7 gentile nations in that area.

The two feedings were to show that the Gospel is for all mankind, Jews and Gentiles