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Can God create a God more powerful than itself?

MatCauthorn

MatCauthorn

Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I get your point. I have heard the same argument in the classroom made by theologians. It does make sense, but God is the Creator and is not subject to anything but Himself, not even logic. He can reveal Himself as logical and appeal to rationale, but in His revelation, He defies logic, if we are to accept the God of Christianity as our subject.
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I have a further question on this subject, which occurred to me the other night upon waking from sleep (and further formulated today, since what I scrawled in my bedside notebook didn't make that much sense upon waking ;)):

If God can do absolutely anything, including things which are normally considered to be impossible, can God do something which is against God's own nature? Like, for example, could God cause someone to choose to commit a sin for which s/he will never repent, and therefore cause him/her to be eternally damned? Surely it would not be in God's power to do something which would eliminate the free will of one of His creations to the point where God is deciding on His own to condemn the person to Hell.

-- Mat
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy defines omnipotence as maximal power. Acquinas understood this to entail the ability to do anything logically possible, thereby escaping from the rock paradox or the demand that God create a square circle. Acquinas was a bright guy ...
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
MatCauthorn said:
I have a further question on this subject, which occurred to me the other night upon waking from sleep (and further formulated today, since what I scrawled in my bedside notebook didn't make that much sense upon waking ;)):

If God can do absolutely anything, including things which are normally considered to be impossible, can God do something which is against God's own nature? Like, for example, could God cause someone to choose to commit a sin for which s/he will never repent, and therefore cause him/her to be eternally damned? Surely it would not be in God's power to do something which would eliminate the free will of one of His creations to the point where God is deciding on His own to condemn the person to Hell.

-- Mat
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If we are talking about the God of Christianity, God has revealed Himself with certian unchangable characteristics. God is able to do that which is against his character, but he has told us that he is unwilling.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Deut. 32.8 said:
I know I'm likely to regret this, but I missed this verse.
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Happy to provide some verses.

We have testimony from both the Tanach and the NT to the unchangableness of God:

Nu 23:19 - Show Context God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind. Has he promised, and will he not do it? Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

1Sa 15:29 - Show Context Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind."

Psalms 46:1-5 1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present F86 help in trouble. 2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change, though the mountains shake in the heart of the sea; 3 though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with its tumult. (Selah) 4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy habitation of the Most High. 5 God is in the midst of the city; F87 it shall not be moved; God will help it when the morning dawns.

Ps 110:4 - Show Context The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (This is applied to Jesus in the epistle to the Hebrews)

Mal 3:6 - Show Context For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, have not perished.

New Testament:
Jas 1:17 - Show Context Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
There are some exceptions to the unchangableness of God: the faithful are encouraged to ask God to change his mind and beg for his mercy, and the Lord promises to change his mind concerning punishment or judgement upon repentance.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
angellous_evangellous said:
There are some exceptions to the unchangableness of God: ...
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Yep - he doesn't change unless he does, but who are we to question the Lord ...
Genesis 6
6 And it repented HaShem that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
7 And HaShem said: 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them.'

Exodus 32
14 And HaShem repented of the evil which He said He would do unto His people.

Jonah 3
10 And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, which He said He would do unto them; and He did it not.​
... and when He does, sometimes it's good and sometimes its biocide. It's the "Suffer little children to come to me - then swim like hell" syndrome. And you're insisting that this is consistent with God's character? What character might that be?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
angellous_evangellous said:
...: the faithful are encouraged to ask God to change his mind and beg for his mercy, and the Lord promises to change his mind concerning punishment or judgement upon repentance.
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This self-serving poppycock is below you.

Where are the faithful encouraged (not where did they beg)? And what body of faithful are responsible for the biocide? And, again, what kind of changeless character is it that would 'encourage' others to beg for mercy?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Deut. 32.8 said:
This self-serving poppycock is below you.

Where are the faithful encouraged (not where did they beg)? And what body of faithful are responsible for the biocide? And, again, what kind of changeless character is it that would 'encourage' others to beg for mercy?
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I was not attempting to be self-serving, just sharing how I read Scripture. In the Tanach and NT God's character is revealed as unchangable, but our actions do cause God to chage his mind in executing judgement and punishment.

Jer 18 is an example: God dtermines what is "evil", this will not change, but God will change his mind if the people repent.

Jer 18:8 - Show Context but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.
In the story of Jonah, God changes his mind when the people repent:
9 Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish." 10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.

Some people think that Jesus teaches that prayer can change the mind of God:
Luke 18:1-8 1 Then Jesus F161 told them a parable about their need to pray always and not to lose heart. 2 He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor had respect for people. 3 In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and saying, "Grant me justice against my opponent.' 4 For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, "Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.' " F162 6 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? 8 I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Deut. 32.8 said:
Yep - he doesn't change unless he does, but who are we to question the Lord ...
Genesis 6

6 And it repented HaShem that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
7 And HaShem said: 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them.'

Exodus 32
14 And HaShem repented of the evil which He said He would do unto His people.

Jonah 3
10 And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, which He said He would do unto them; and He did it not.
​
... and when He does, sometimes it's good and sometimes its biocide. It's the "Suffer little children to come to me - then swim like hell" syndrome. And you're insisting that this is consistent with God's character? What character might that be?
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We are talking about an intrinsic change in character, not specific changes of mind. We can see that God changes his mind, but this does not require a change in character. The changes of mind reveal characteristics regarding the person.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
angellous_evangellous said:
God determines what is "evil", this will not change, but God will change his mind if the people repent.
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So, you've determined when God will and will not change his mind. OK. As for the rest, are you sure that you're comfortable with your claim: "God determines what is "evil", this will not change"? I've got more that a few copies of Leviticus and Deuteronomy around, and the discussion could get lurid.

[Edit: Actually, we're (I'm) getting off topic here. If you think it worth while, we should probably move this to another thread.]
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Deut. 32.8 said:
So, you've determined when God will and will not change his mind. OK. As for the rest, are you sure that you're comfortable with your claim: "God determines what is "evil", this will not change"? I've got more that a few copies of Leviticus and Deuteronomy around, and the discussion could get lurid.
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Yes, I am confortable with my claim that God determines what is good and evil, good being defined as provision and evil as neglect. There are 613 laws in the Tanach, a little more than half are negative commands and the rest are positive. We are not going to be able to reason out why God wanted all of those mundane things, and thankfully (from a Christian POV), all provision is made in Jesus Christ. The law exists to show that we can never attain God's provision by following it alone: it demonstrates that all have sinned. In Christ, we are all cleansed and rest in the provision of God.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Deut. 32.8 said:
So, you've determined when God will and will not change his mind. OK. As for the rest, are you sure that you're comfortable with your claim: "God determines what is "evil", this will not change"? I've got more that a few copies of Leviticus and Deuteronomy around, and the discussion could get lurid.

[Edit: Actually, we're (I'm) getting off topic here. If you think it worth while, we should probably move this to another thread.]
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If it intersts you, that will be fine with me. A thousand apologies for my continuence.:eek:
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Deut. 32.8 said:
This self-serving poppycock is below you.

Where are the faithful encouraged (not where did they beg)? And what body of faithful are responsible for the biocide? And, again, what kind of changeless character is it that would 'encourage' others to beg for mercy?
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angellous_evangellous has encaspulated what is held by some as Open Theology. I've been trying to get somebody to talk about it since my early days here. I would appreciate (and suggest) a new thread
 
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