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Against current healthcare reform efforts?

waacman

Restoration of everything
I see people making money because they are working for it. I feel the system we have now is working. I hope is doesn't change, because if it does, I'm pretty sure I'm screwed.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
I see people making money because they are working for it. I feel the system we have now is working. I hope is doesn't change, because if it does, I'm pretty sure I'm screwed.

Yeah our system sure is super...if you have good health insurance. Then there's guys like me who don't have insurance, and would be either turned down or given huge premiums due to potentially-expensive preexisting conditions.

Yup, sure is great if you can get insurance. I guess those without should just be satisfied as is.

Just a reminder that people who oppose health care reform because of the tax increases literally believe that their money is worth more than human lives.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What's to interpret?
The health care industry stands to loose billions if healthcare is reformed. We've known for weeks now about the army of lobbyists they've deployed, the 1.4 million per day they're spending, the massive propaganda.
Nothing new or remarkable here.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Yeah our system sure is super...if you have good health insurance. Then there's guys like me who don't have insurance, and would be either turned down or given huge premiums due to potentially-expensive preexisting conditions.

Yup, sure is great if you can get insurance. I guess those without should just be satisfied as is.

Just a reminder that people who oppose health care reform because of the tax increases literally believe that their money is worth more than human lives.

I think the biggest amount of opposition comes from those who don't trust the government to make the right decisions with our money. After all, they haven't been doing a very good job so far, why should we expect them to improve now? I love America, but I loathe paying taxes. Not because I'm greedy, but because it appears that our government doesn't know how to responsibly manage its funds.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
I think the biggest amount of opposition comes from those who don't trust the government to make the right decisions with our money. After all, they haven't been doing a very good job so far, why should we expect them to improve now? I love America, but I loathe paying taxes. Not because I'm greedy, but because it appears that our government doesn't know how to responsibly manage its funds.

Do you oppose public roads, police departments, fire departments, courts or post offices? After all, if the government is so inefficient, wouldn't it be better to just replace all these with private services? I'm sure you could probably find some affordable private police or fire services, and I'm sure people will find a way to scrap together enough money to keep the roads drivable.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Do you oppose public roads, police departments, fire departments, courts or post offices? After all, if the government is so inefficient, wouldn't it be better to just replace all these with private services? I'm sure you could probably find some affordable private police or fire services, and I'm sure people will find a way to scrap together enough money to keep the roads drivable.

In some cases, it might actually be better to replace those things with private services. Besides, my point is not that the government doesn't do anything good, my point is that when the government is trusted to do something, it's usually really irresponsible and reckless. Especially when it has to do with money. Hence our trillions of dollars of debt here in America.

Suppose I prefer private health-care to the public healthcare. Why should I be forced to pay for public health care if I'm not using it? I use roads, I use police, I use courts and I use post offices. I don't use public health care, so why should I pay for it?

At the very least, a citizen should only be required to pay for those services that he uses. Outside of that, everything else should have a flat-rate tax.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
In some cases, it might actually be better to replace those things with private services. Besides, my point is not that the government doesn't do anything good, my point is that when the government is trusted to do something, it's usually really irresponsible and reckless. Especially when it has to do with money. Hence our trillions of dollars of debt here in America.

Suppose I prefer private health-care to the public healthcare. Why should I be forced to pay for public health care if I'm not using it? I use roads, I use police, I use courts and I use post offices. I don't use public health care, so why should I pay for it?

At the very least, a citizen should only be required to pay for those services that he uses. Outside of that, everything else should have a flat-rate tax.
OK, but if you've opted out of health care, because you don't use it, what happens when you get in a car accident, or contract H1N1, or get beat up by some intolerant skinheads? You haven't paid for health care, because you don't use it, so I guess you get to go buy some stuff at the drug store to take care of your broken bones, or your raging infection (potentially infecting others as well).
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think the biggest amount of opposition comes from those who don't trust the government to make the right decisions with our money. After all, they haven't been doing a very good job so far, why should we expect them to improve now? I love America, but I loathe paying taxes. Not because I'm greedy, but because it appears that our government doesn't know how to responsibly manage its funds.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here about public opinion, Knight, but I suspect you've been sucked into it, yourself, to some degree.

First, the Right Wing politicians defund government programs, then they go on to staff them with incompetents, then, when it's clear the various departments are unable to do fulfil their functions adequately, the Right use their media monopoly to convince the general public that government is, by Nature, incompetent.
Unfortunately, no alternative explanation is presented, and the public has little historical perspective to begin with, so past competent performance is forgotten and the excellent performance of foreign governments never even comes up.

The fact is, given adequate funds and staffed by those with some expertise in the field, government can almost always outperform private, for-profit agencies, at a fraction of the cost.
This has been our experience in the past, and it is clearly the case if one takes the time to examine the experience of other countries.
 

waacman

Restoration of everything
Do you oppose public roads, police departments, fire departments, courts or post offices? After all, if the government is so inefficient, wouldn't it be better to just replace all these with private services? I'm sure you could probably find some affordable private police or fire services, and I'm sure people will find a way to scrap together enough money to keep the roads drivable.

name one area in which both the private sector and the government are allowed, and usually the private sector wins hands down. Both for quality and price.
 

waacman

Restoration of everything
The fact is, given adequate funds and staffed by those with some expertise in the field, government can almost always outperform private, for-profit agencies, at a fraction of the cost.
This has been our experience in the past, and it is clearly the case if one takes the time to examine the experience of other countries.

Are we still talking about healthcare here or something else? In what other countries does this exist being done well? So far the only one I deem better healthcare would be Switzerland.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
America, practically the only industrialised western nation, perhaps the most economically rich country, the one with the most million and billionaires....

and the one country that does not have universal healthcare.

What more needs to be said?
I mean seriously?
What more?
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
OK, but if you've opted out of health care, because you don't use it, what happens when you get in a car accident, or contract H1N1, or get beat up by some intolerant skinheads? You haven't paid for health care, because you don't use it, so I guess you get to go buy some stuff at the drug store to take care of your broken bones, or your raging infection (potentially infecting others as well).

As I said, suppose I want to buy private health care. If I have health care from a private health care company then I'm covered in any of those scenarios you listed. If I'm paying for private health care, I should not be forced to pay for public health care that I do not use.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here about public opinion, Knight, but I suspect you've been sucked into it, yourself, to some degree.

First, the Right Wing politicians defund government programs, then they go on to staff them with incompetents, then, when it's clear the various departments are unable to do fulfil their functions adequately, the Right use their media monopoly to convince the general public that government is, by Nature, incompetent.
Unfortunately, no alternative explanation is presented, and the public has little historical perspective to begin with, so past competent performance is forgotten and the excellent performance of foreign governments never even comes up.

The fact is, given adequate funds and staffed by those with some expertise in the field, government can almost always outperform private, for-profit agencies, at a fraction of the cost.
This has been our experience in the past, and it is clearly the case if one takes the time to examine the experience of other countries.

I agree that the government could do it. But, in order for me to place my trust in the government, it would have to have a serious reform of its policies and methods.

Also, while I don't work for the federal government, I am involved with government on a State/county/city level and I can tell you that incompetence is not just right wing propaganda. Of course, I don't think it has so much to with government as it does the fact that many Americans are incompetent thinkers.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
In some cases, it might actually be better to replace those things with private services. Besides, my point is not that the government doesn't do anything good, my point is that when the government is trusted to do something, it's usually really irresponsible and reckless. Especially when it has to do with money. Hence our trillions of dollars of debt here in America.

Suppose I prefer private health-care to the public healthcare. Why should I be forced to pay for public health care if I'm not using it? I use roads, I use police, I use courts and I use post offices. I don't use public health care, so why should I pay for it?

At the very least, a citizen should only be required to pay for those services that he uses. Outside of that, everything else should have a flat-rate tax.

Ah ok, so the old "**** you, got mine". That's cool too. You just go ahead and rock on with your private healthcare. We uninsured know when we're not wanted.
 

waacman

Restoration of everything
Ah ok, so the old "**** you, got mine". That's cool too. You just go ahead and rock on with your private healthcare. We uninsured know when we're not wanted.

Its gonna sound kinda silly when your sittin all fat and happy with your government healthcare too singing the same tune while people will be paying double duty on their healthcare... and all because you wanted to ram it through so quickly
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
If Congress does pass a national plan, I'd like to see members of Congress not exempt themselves the way they do with Social Security, the national drug plan, and other programs.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
Its gonna sound kinda silly when your sittin all fat and happy with your government healthcare too singing the same tune while people will be paying double duty on their healthcare... and all because you wanted to ram it through so quickly
So should I (and many like me) just accept that I am unable to afford health care and pray that I don't get too sick, because saving my life might cost somebody money? Not to mention that the money would be coming from somebody who could easily afford the slight tax increase.

I guess money is just more valuable than human life.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
So should I (and many like me) just accept that I am unable to afford health care and pray that I don't get too sick, because saving my life might cost somebody money? Not to mention that the money would be coming from somebody who could easily afford the slight tax increase.

I guess money is just more valuable than human life.
Almost right, Zephyr. money is more valuable than OTHER PEOPLE's lives.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I said, suppose I want to buy private health care. If I have health care from a private health care company then I'm covered in any of those scenarios you listed. If I'm paying for private health care, I should not be forced to pay for public health care that I do not use.[quote}
Pssst -- you already do. The US government spends twice what any other countries spend on their entire healthcare systems - in taxes alone!

I agree that the government could do it. But, in order for me to place my trust in the government, it would have to have a serious reform of its policies and methods.
Agreed. the various agencies are often underfunded in serious disrepair, but I don't think it would be any great trick to give them adequate funding and replace political appointees with competent managers.
( Remember how well FEMA handled hurricanes before the republicans cut its funds and headed it with a horse-show organizer)?

Also, while I don't work for the federal government, I am involved with government on a State/county/city level and I can tell you that incompetence is not just right wing propaganda. Of course, I don't think it has so much to with government as it does the fact that many Americans are incompetent thinkers.
I can't entirely disagree, having worked in an OSHA office at one time, (though I doubt a private, for profit agency would have done any better); and when does a week go by that some police outrage doesn't make it into the papers?
Nothing's perfect. The best we can do is remove any profit motive and institute careful monitoring and oversight.
 
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