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All-Powerful God Always Right

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
The only place I've found it referenced is here, in Revelations 20:14 (a text traditionally considered to be a revelation, not prediction):

I'm curious, first, why you think all Christian hold to revelations being something literally accurate?

How is that Earth and Sky literally flee from the prescence of a white throne?
What are the literal books that were opened by each?
Which sea is it that literally "gives up the dead" so that others might judge them?
Is death, as a concept, limited to the lake of fire according to this story? (Hades might actually like it, as a vacation resort: we never know.)
What does it mean to experience a "second death" in the lake of fire?
If you have an eraser, and are very clever, could you commit someone to the lake of fire?

Hell's mentioned quite a few times, here's an example:

Matthews 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I know that some Christians don't take the concept of hell literally. That's fine. I see no reason to take any of the bible literally.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.." Revelation 20:10

...that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb." Revelation 14:10

Let's be honest. The Bible is very clear that hell is not something you do to yourself by not following God's gentle, well-meaning, motherly advice, it's something God does to you if you make him angry.
When hatred, with its package, comes
you refuse delivery.


The literalized Bible isn't the only source of wisdom. (Nor myth.) (Nor Revelations.)
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
I'm curious, first, why you think all Christian hold to revelations being something literally accurate?

Nothing in the Bible is literally accurate. The question is why the people who assembled the book felt these passages describing hell were worthy of inclusion, and why the current custodians of Christian scripture feel they're worthy to remain.

FYI, the punishment for non-belief is a running theme throughout the Bible - not just Revelations. Never is there any suggestion that people don't listen to God's kindly advice and end up hurting themselves. It's the "wrath" of God, not the "disappointment" of God. The "punishment" for non-belief, not the "consequence". You are "thrown" into the lake of fire, you don't "jump".
 

Alceste

Vagabond
When hatred, with its package, comes
you refuse delivery.


The Bible isn't the only source of wisdom. (Nor Revelations.)

True enough. There's no reason even to assume that the hypothetical god that the OP is about is the god of the Christians. Although, I suppose it's inevitable we'd come to this, given the scenario - an omnipotent creator god saying "do as I say without question or I'll torture you forever" - not to mention that the implication is that he would be instructing us to do something that greatly offends our own conscience. Who else's god would that be but the god of Christians and Muslims? :)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
True enough. There's no reason even to assume that the hypothetical god that the OP is about is the god of the Christians. Although, I suppose it's inevitable we'd come to this, given the scenario - an omnipotent creator god saying "do as I say without question or I'll torture you forever" - not to mention that the implication is that he would be instructing us to do something that greatly offends our own conscience. Who else's god would that be but the god of Christians and Muslims?
Actually, I'd assume that "the hypothetical god that the OP is about" is about "'God'" until demonstrated to be about "the image of god", such as "the Christian God". The latter is more often the case, unless the author is speaking in metaphor.

But maybe that's just me.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Actually, I'd assume that "the hypothetical god that the OP is about" is about "'God'" until demonstrated to be about "the image of god", such as "the Christian God". The latter is more often the case, unless the author is speaking in metaphor.

But maybe that's just me.

What other creator gods are there that threaten punishment for non-obedience?
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
If the only way to reconcile omnipotence and morality is to assert omniscience and immunity to contradiction, then you are logically required to assert complete perfection, at which point all notion of quality or qualities that we understand become invalid. Perfection is completely indeterminate; you can "correctly" assert anything and nothing about it.

The only "truth" then becomes that there is knowledge in knowing only that we know (approximately) nothing.


A creator being which is not omnipotent and not omniscient is not required to "share" the belief systems of the constituent members of creation, but would still possess far superior perspective, perception, and have greater access to "evidence" for almost all things. Surely in this case it is wiser to defer to the moral judgment of such a being?

MTF
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Threatening punishment for disobedience is not a characteristic of creation.

From the OP:

What if each command was backed by a threat of eternal damnation/pain/suffering for non-compliance - would that change your response? What if each command was backed by a promise of eternal bliss/joy/ecstasy for compliance - would that change your response?

I kind of feel like we're talking past each other. I'm just treating this as a thought experiment, as I don't believe in any gods. I just assumed we were talking about the Abrahamic one, since I'm not aware of any others thought to have these attributes.

I can't debate the nature or even the probable nature, of an "actual" god - or "the" god - or whatever you're getting at - because I have no god concept of my own to advance or defend, and your own theoretical god (assuming you have one) is just one of the multitude of gods and goddesses I consider to be human fictions.
 

whereismynotecard

Treasure Hunter
God is not the one who causes pain and suffering - He just wanrs us of natural consequences for taking certain actions... like a mother telling a child "don't touch the hot stove". The mother does not cause the pain, the stove does.

Raping, murdering, and burning down hospitals don't cause pain to the criminal. The police who made the rules and send them to jail cause the pain. Not the action; the guy who makes the rules and enforces them.

There are lots of rules in the bible that tell you not to do certain things, and I don't think any of them would actually cause you to be sent to hell unless someone was using that as a punishment.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
God is not the one who causes pain and suffering - He just wanrs us of natural consequences for taking certain actions... like a mother telling a child "don't touch the hot stove". The mother does not cause the pain, the stove does.

Sure.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
God is not the one who causes pain and suffering - He just wanrs us of natural consequences for taking certain actions... like a mother telling a child "don't touch the hot stove". The mother does not cause the pain, the stove does.

How do you explain children born with AID's? All all powerful God is just being mean, they don't even stand a chance.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Why indeed? I don't know. Perhaps the omnipotent being chooses to limit "himself." Surely "free will" would constitute a "self placed" limitation for an omnipotent being?
For what purpose would an omnipotent Being purposefully limit himself by allowing the possibility for himself to be wrong?

If God created morality, which follows from omnipotence, it would make sense that he would create it in such a way that it molded to his own nature, so that there wouldn't ever be a reason for him to not follow his own rules, since they already fit how he knows himself to act.

If you had no hands would you invent the game of baseball? Likewise, if you are prone to murdering, and you are inventing morality, why would you make murdering wrong?

Anyone can judge anything else. The standard of judgment is what matters. Authority to judge? The desirability of the outcome is the authority.
Huh? Sure, anyone can judge anyone else, but they must have the authority to make such a judgement meaningful. Wouldn't the omnipotent ruler of the universe-- the Creator of Morality-- be the best possible form of authority on the subject of morality?

I have never, ever heard it argued that "the desirability of the outcome" is the best form of authority for a judgement. If so, then our entire legal system would grind to a halt. I really can't think of one example in which this would be the case.

Sure an omnipotent being could simply change the state of the universe such that the majority finds something desirable, but that presupposes no free will and consequently the universe achieves a sort of meaningless "puppet show" quality.
I don't believe free-will was ever assumed in the OP. All we are debating is if an omnipotent being is necessarily morally right. Free-will is not a necessary condition.

If a being transcends reality, then it is beyond all that is real.
Hold it right there: where is it suggested that this being transcends reality? I argue that the supernatural does not exist. Even if God, in all his fairy god-mother glory, does in fact exist, he would be as natural as a blue jay, since he is a part of reality.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm already familiar with the story. Why do you think I should study it?

Prometheus did what he believed was right, rather than what he knew would please Zeus. I suspect the ancient Greek notion the gods are not always right is very alien to most thinking today.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Prometheus did what he believed was right, rather than what he knew would please Zeus.

Right, and he gets his liver eaten every day by a giant bird.

Apart from this, Zeus, although he was the head of the Olympian gods, was not the creator of the universe, nor close to omnipotent, so there is no basis for saying that Zeus' will must be right.

In my hypothetical scenario, god is the creator and designer of everything, including us - so my argument is that there is a logical basis for believing that this god's will is correct, even if it doesn't jive with your particular limited view.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In my hypothetical scenario, god is the creator and designer of everything, including us - so my argument is that there is a logical basis for believing that this god's will is correct, even if it doesn't jive with your particular limited view.

There is no logical basis for believing your hypothetical god's will is correct unless you insert into your premises the notion that he or she is correct. That's because it is entirely conceivable that the "designer of everything" was a poor designer in at least some respects.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
There is no logical basis for believing your hypothetical god's will is correct unless you insert into your premises the notion that he or she is correct. That's because it is entirely conceivable that the "designer of everything" was a poor designer in at least some respects.

Seems logical to me that the designer of the universe would know its purpose better then someone inside it who had an infinitesimally limited perspective. I wouldn't really have any reasonable basis for judging how good or poor the design was. Guess we'll have to disagree on this one.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
I may depart from many fellow atheists in this regard, but if god made itself known to me in a way where I was completely convinced of its existence (god being an entity which created the universe, including us, and was all-powerful), and god commanded me to do something, I would do it.

This would be god's universe, and its rules would supercede any limited ideas I had formed myself. Regardless of whether I thought it was right or wrong, moral or immoral, if god told me to do it, it would be the correct thing to do. I would have no reasonable basis to resist the will of the creator and ruler of the universe, whether I understood the reasons or not.

Do any other atheists/non-theists agree with this viewpoint? If not, what would your basis be for resisting the wishes of god? Why do you think your morals would trump god's? What if each command was backed by a threat of eternal damnation/pain/suffering for non-compliance - would that change your response? What if each command was backed by a promise of eternal bliss/joy/ecstasy for compliance - would that change your response?

atotalstranger,
Please let me point out a couple of things.
If you had a Theophany, God appearing to you, why would you believe it is the True God, and not a wicked spirit, which we are warned about? Eph 6:11-13.
Are you aware that, of all our senses, the sense of sight is the easiest to fool???
You say that if God told you personally to do something that you would do it. I say you would not, because if you would you would do what the Bible, which is God's personal letter to every man, says. So in truth, you do have God telling you what to do!!!
Consider a principle that addresses this matter, at Luke 16:25-31. These verses tell us that we have God's word, and if we do not believe what it says we would not even believe if a person comes back from the dead to tells us something.
God's word tells us everything that God requires of us, to qualify us to be preserved through the end of this system of things. If we do not listen to God's own word, what would we believe.
Many people do not believe that the Holy Scriptures are inspired of God and therefore the same as God Himself speaking to each one of us, 2Pet 1:20,21, 2Tim 3:16,17.
Almost a third of the Holy Scriptuures are prophecies. No one but the almighty God, who is perfect in knowledge could write something beforehand and make it come true 100% of the time, as God has.
Many things the Bible recorded was not known by men at the dates they were written. Job tells us the earth had a round shape, Job 26:10, and that it was hung on nothing, Job 26:7. These scriptures were written well over 3,000 years ago. Isa says the same, Isa 40:22.
When Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, no person knew the exact order of the creation, but Moses wrote Genesis in 1513BCE, and science agrees perfectly with the order that Moses wrote.
Have you ever read the book of Daniel. The last three books of Daniel list the order of all the world powers that had any dealings with the Israelites, this right down to today in Dan chapter 12. Even Daniel did not know what he was writing, but God, who inspired Daniel, knew, Dan 8:27, 12:8-10.
Through the study of Bible schlors and Biblical archeology, the Holy Scriptures have been proven to be accurrate, in spite of so many critics, who want to discredit it.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that God has not spoken to you through His Holy Scriptures. Are you obeying Him, as you said you would???
 
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