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A Mathmatical Solution for God's Existence?

Pah

Uber all member
Scientific American

SKEPTIC
July 2004 issue


God's Number Is Up
Among a heap of books claiming that science proves God's existence emerges one that computes a probability of 67 percent
By Michael Shermer

In his 1916 poem "A Coat" William Butler Yeats rhymed:

"I made my song a coat/Covered with embroideries/Out of old mythologies/From heel to throat."

Read "religion" for "song," and "science" for "coat," and we have a close approximation of the deepest flaw in the science and religion movement, as revealed in Yeats's denouement: "But the fools caught it,/Wore it in the world's eyes/As though they'd wrought it./Song, let them take it/For there's more enterprise/In walking naked."

Naked faith is what religious enterprise was always about, until science became the preeminent system of natural verisimilitude, tempting the faithful to employ its wares in the practice of preternatural belief. Although most efforts in this genre offer little more than scientistic cant and religious blather, a few require a response from the magisterium of science, if for no other reason than to protect that of religion; if faith is tethered to science, what happens when the science changes? One of the most innovative works in this genre is The Probability of God (Crown Forum, 2003), by Stephen D. Unwin, a risk management consultant in Ohio, whose early physics work on quantum gravity showed him that the universe is probabilistic and whose later research in risk analysis led him to this ultimate computation.

If faith is tethered to science, what happens when the science changes?

Unwin rejects most scientific attempts to prove the divine--such as the anthropic principle and intelligent design--concluding that this "is not the sort of evidence that points in either direction, for or against." Instead he employs Bayesian probabilities, a statistical method devised by 18th-century Presbyterian minister and mathematician Reverend Thomas Bayes. Unwin begins with a 50 percent probability that God exists (because 50–50 represents "maximum ignorance"), then applies a modified Bayesian theorem:

[pah- see image below for equation]

The probability of God's existence after the evidence is considered is a function of the probability before times D ("Divine Indicator Scale"): 10 indicates the evidence is 10 times as likely to be produced if God exists, 2 is two times as likely if God exists, 1 is neutral, 0.5 is moderately more likely if God does not exist, and 0.1 is much more likely if God does not exist. Unwin offers the following figures for six lines of evidence: recognition of goodness (D = 10), existence of moral evil (D = 0.5), existence of natural evil (D = 0.1), intranatural miracles (prayers) (D = 2), extranatural miracles (resurrection) (D = 1), and religious experiences (D = 2).

Plugging these figures into the above formula (in sequence, where the Pafter figure for the first computation is used for the Pbefore figure in the second computation, and so on for all six Ds), Unwin concludes: "The probability that God exists is 67%." Remarkably, he then confesses: "This number has a subjective element since it reflects my assessment of the evidence. It isn't as if we have calculated the value of pi for the first time."

Indeed, based on my own theory of the evolutionary origins of morality and the sociocultural foundation of religious beliefs and faith, I would begin (as Unwin does) with a 50 percent probability of God's existence and plug in these figures: recognition of goodness (D = 0.5), existence of moral evil (D = 0.1), existence of natural evil (D = 0.1), intranatural miracles (D = 1), extranatural miracles (D = 0.5), and religious experiences (D = 0.1). I estimate the probability that God exists is 0.02, or 2 percent.

Regardless, the subjective component in the formula relegates its use to an entertaining exercise in thinking--on par with mathematical puzzles--but little more. In my opinion, the question of God's existence is a scientifically insoluble one. Thus, all such scientistic theologies are compelling only to those who already believe. Religious faith depends on a host of social, psychological and emotional factors that have little or nothing to do with probabilities, evidence and logic. This is faith's inescapable weakness. It is also, undeniably, its greatest power.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
I use the reverse method figuring it. Rather than trying to figure all the variables required to get the math right for a percentage to be for GOD, I figur the impossibility of every other science based natural possibility of life occuring on its own and in the end I can infer that if every other possibility proposed can be proven impossible then all that is left is the intelligent beginning of life.

here is an example of statistical probability spanking an evolutionary assertion in the foundation.

e) the odds of life just spontaneously occuring....
One chemist has calculated the immense odds against amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins by undirected means. He estimated the probability to be more than 10 to the 67th to 1 (1067:1) against even a small protein forming – by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (an age 10 to 20 times greater than the supposed age of the Earth).Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 10 to the 50th (1:1050) have a zero probability of ever happening ("and even that gives it the benefit of the doubt!").

KBC"s pearl of Wisdom;

"The truth is that which probability can't beat"
 

KBC1963

Active Member
What do think Pah,
Should we start a thread that deals exclusively with statistical probability of life beginning naturally vs. beginning by intelligence?
This would of course be fairly easy to come to the conclusion that life began by intelligence since it cannot be denied that if it could happen on accident then it can definitly occur by design but it may be enlightening to see just how improbable it would be to happen naturally. What would you think if we could statistically prove that it is impossible to have happened naturally? would you give up on the god of science? i'm sure that the answer would come out to be that we just don't have the right theory yet but oh well at least we could clear the board of all those current theories and get started on some new ones. hehehehe
 

Pah

Uber all member
KBC1963 said:
I use the reverse method figuring it. Rather than trying to figure all the variables required to get the math right for a percentage to be for GOD, I figur the impossibility of every other science based natural possibility of life occuring on its own and in the end I can infer that if every other possibility proposed can be proven impossible then all that is left is the intelligent beginning of life.

Aw, KBC - I don't think you even sctrached the surface of every science based solution. See, your God is tied to the earth and science may have been extra-terrestrial.

You must also understand that the question of the existence of God of the Bible is mathematically separate from the question of life here on earth. One doesn't prove the other.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
KBC,

10^67:1 is almost certainty compared to the odds against atoms combining into exactly me.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
I think there are a lot of contradictions:

(These are from the Sceptic's Annotated Bible-- http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

(God created the heavens “for signs” and yet later condemns astrology, even though an astrological sign heralded the birth of Jesus.)

Genesis 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."

Is.47:13-14 "Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it"

Mt.2:1-2 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

(Gen.1:25-27 says humans were created after animals and Gen. 2:18-19 says humans were created before animals).

Gen.1:25-27 "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image."

Gen. 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

(God creates light and separates day from night on the first day, but he didn’t create light producing objects until the fourth day.)

Gen 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Gen 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

Gen 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"
Gen 1:15 "And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."
Gen 1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

(Fowls are created from the water in one account and the ground in another.)

Gen.1:20-21 "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

Gen.2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

Others:
--How many sons did Abraham have? Sometimes the Bible says he had only one (Isaac) and other times he has more than one (Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah). http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/abes_sons.html

--Is it wrong to drink alcohol? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/alcohol.html

--Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples after the resurrection? On a mountain top in Galilee or in a room in Jerusalem? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/appear.html

--Can God do anything? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/cando.html

--Is it okay to covet? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/covet.html

--Does God want animal sacrifices? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/desire.html

--Will the earth last forever? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/earth.html

And hundreds more: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
 
Just on a side note, I was wondering if anyone ever heard of Thomas Bayes. Bayes was an eighteenth century minister/mathematician who set out to prove the existence of God through mathmatics. He worked very hard for years and years, and finally did come up with a mathematical formula. The formula was quite useless at proving the existence of God, but was amazingly accurate at calculating conditional probabilities. Bayes never did prove the existence of God, but his probabilities formula, quite appropriately named Bayes' Theorem, is used to this day. Just an interesting anecdote I thought everyone would be interested in.
 
KBC1963 said:
I use the reverse method figuring it. Rather than trying to figure all the variables required to get the math right for a percentage to be for GOD, I figur the impossibility of every other science based natural possibility of life occuring on its own and in the end I can infer that if every other possibility proposed can be proven impossible then all that is left is the intelligent beginning of life.
First of all, that's a big assumption. If all other possibilities are proven impossible, life could have been created by two intelligent gods, or three...or a superior alien race that is not supernatural at all. You are attempting to first create gaps in knowledge, then fill them with your god, but it could be any number of other things. It's the ol' fillin' in the gaps move! :D


here is an example of statistical probability spanking an evolutionary assertion in the foundation.

e) the odds of life just spontaneously occuring....
One chemist has calculated the immense odds against amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins by undirected means. He estimated the probability to be more than 10 to the 67th to 1 (1067:1) against even a small protein forming – by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (an age 10 to 20 times greater than the supposed age of the Earth).Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 10 to the 50th (1:1050) have a zero probability of ever happening ("and even that gives it the benefit of the doubt!").
For starters: does this 'one chemist' have a name? What are his credentials? Is he a devout Christian or theist? What do other chemists think, besides this one? Did he make any money off of these claims? :confused:

Most importantly, how exactly did he calculate the probability, and for which proteins?

One last thing to think about: did you know that devout Catholic scientists in the Middle Ages created a geocentric model of the solar system that accurately predicted the positions of the planets? Just something to think about.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles,

Here is what another chemist thinks (quoting myself above):

"10^67:1 is almost certainty compared to the odds against atoms combining into exactly me."

Anders
M.Chem.Eng.
 
Thank you, anders. I didn't know you were a chemist.

KBC, do you care to answer my other questions? I think it would be nice if we at least knew the NAME of the person making these claims, on whom your entire argument rests.
 

tumble_weed

Member
I just thought I might quote Bad Religion, since it's sort of appropriate- "I'll believe in God when 1+1=5"

actually, I don't think God can have a mathematical solution...it's not something you can measure mathematically...so if you're trying to prove/disprove God using mathematics I think you might be going around it the wrong way...God is very much faith based and mathematics is one thing which requires any faith...under normal circumstances 5 times 5 always equals 25...300 minus 6 always equals 294...But in religions there are many many different interpretations of God and who he is and what he can do. It isn't always constant.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
PHI. God shows himself in the world through nature. its all around us. even in YOU. measure the length of your arm, divide it by the measure between your finger tips to your elbow. you get PHI. its everywhere in nature.

other than that, i dont think God can be summerized in a mathematical equation. if you really want to find God, just look at your hands. 10 fingers. 10, a perfect number. look at the wonderful metric system we have today because of it. 10 fingers! wowee.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Phi doesn't prove that God exists. It only proves that there is a particular order to biological creation on this planet. Probably because every live creature on this planet essentially arose from the same source.

It is also possible that phi DOESN'T exist in all living creatures... that it just appears to due to creative number manipulation.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
See, if God is simply the Universe, with its order and beauty (and destructiveness... that exists as well) rather than a conscious thinking entity, then yes, I agree that there is a God. It could, therefore, be represented mathematically. But did God purposely infuse creation with this mathematical order? I doubt it.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
why not?

you can think of God as your best friend, a father, a mother, a lover, even a child. you may worship and love him however you wish. okay back on topic.
 
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