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If you look at the bibleGateway.com and read the footnotes in many bibles it tells us that it is not right.Montalban said:Can you tell me why you think it is a fraud?
may said:If you look at the bibleGateway.com and read the footnotes in many bibles it tells us that it is not right.
No, she's answering your question as to why she thinks it's true. She's given you reference. I don't imagine she cares either way if you bother to look it up yourself.Montalban said:Are you asking me to go research this for myself to prove what you say is true?
NetDoc said:The verse in Philippians 2:6 does it for me...
Who in {the} form of God subsisting, not robbery thought {it} to be equal with God, Literal Bible
The Greek word for "form" was morphe which is pretty strong. Jesus did not think it "robbery" to be equal to God, since he already IS equal to God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one." NIV
There is no equivocating here.
BTW Deut... Unfortunately the hate between the Christians and the Jews was way lopsided in the first Century. There was way more violence against the Christians back then, including stonings and constant disruptions. It is quite narrow minded to continually point out the faults of the Christians and hold the Jews of the time up as blameless. What makes this so heinous is that this was ethnically Jew against Jew. As for the "Judaizers", they should have minded their own business. They were intent on abolishing this "new sect spoken everywhere against". Hopefully you won't overlook their intolerance in your quest to discredit all that is Christian.
Bigotry, no matter what your ethnicity is just plain WRONG.
Intolerance, no matter what your faith is just plain WRONG.
Regarding JOHN 10; 38Montalban said:Obviously you believe that the Jews got the wrong charge on Jesus?
They are one
I John 5:7
There are those that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one
Philippians 2:5-7 "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing."
Jesus said (in John 10:38)
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
They are of one accord
John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Jesus is equal to God
Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him
Jesus has the power and wisdom of God
1 Cor 1:24
...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Jesus is eternal like God
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Jesus Himself commanded that we do things in the name of the three
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
In this passage, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are said to share one name (notice that the term name is singular, not plural), and that name is almost certainly Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Bible. We know this because the name Yahweh is applied to both the Father and the Son in the New Testament.
Peter tells us, David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a stool for your feet. Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:3436). Here God is the Lord who speaks to my Lord, Jesus. When one looks at the Old Testament quotation, one finds, Yahweh says to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool (Ps. 110:1); so here the Father is called Yahweh.
In Philippians 2:1011, we read: [A]t the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This is a reference to Isaiah 45:1824, which tells us: I, Yahweh, speak the truth . . . I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn. . . . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. Only in Yahweh, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength. Here Paul applies the prophecy of every knee bending and every tongue confessing to Jesus, resulting in the prophecy that they will confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh. The stress on Christ as God is also picked up by the early Church Fathers (e.g., Ignatius, below).
Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh (I AM, in English translation). In John 8:58, when questioned about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. His audience understood exactly who he was claiming to be. So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple (John 8:59).
With the personal name of God, Yahweh, being applied to both the Father and the Son, it is almost certainly applied to the Spirit, and thus to all three members of the Trinity.
The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthews Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do todaythat the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp
That's the entire purpose of theology. As an academic discipline it originated more or less over this exact question. The project of theology has always been to put words in the mouth of Jesus and the New Testament writers. The challenge then is to just be reasonable in doing so. In this case it's pretty reasonable....or atleast I think so.NetDoc said:Now you are putting words in his mouth. I am not that bold!
Which is why I am not a theologist.Lloyd said:That's the entire purpose of theology.
Well if this story is historical, it seems pretty clear i.m.o. that Jesus did claim to be God (or at least the Son of God).Montalban said:Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
That statement is either pathetically paranoid or despicably dishonest.NetDoc said:Hopefully you won't overlook their intolerance in your quest to discredit all that is Christian.
Montalban said:Can you tell me why you think it is a fraud?
thats ok , i dont mind , that is correct , its not found in the older manuscripts as you say . i am all for getting back to the pure word of God without the trappings of manmade doctrine.ThisShouldMakeSense said:(Sorry May, for butting in, I couldn't resist!)
This is how the KJ version reads.
1 John 5:7-8*(King James Version)
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
This is how some other versions read. Note the footnotes...
1 John 5:7-8*(New International Version)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Footnotes:
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
New Living Translation (NLT)
7So we have these three witnesses[a]-- 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood--and all three agree.
Footnotes:
1 John 5:7 Some very late manuscripts add in heaven--the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth.
so it isn't found in any early manuscripts and is therefore considered to be an addition made along the way. as it is spurious, it isn't included in more accurate translations. Question your teacher/priest/vicar etc. about it, see what he says.
(Something to think about. The KJ version is one of the most inaccurate versions of the Bible. it is considered one of the best by many, however it has removed God's personal name almost 7000 times, for instance, as have many, many others, so if it did that, what else did it do?)