is the religion of peace really the religion of war

Mujahid Mohammed said:

give me an example. the later Caliphs were they own men. They grew up in different times the conditions were different. Remember the companions had the most pious hearts and the least superficial. they weren't as corrupt as the later generations. The bidah and fitnah never came from Arabia once Islam took over. It came from the other nations (iraq, yemen, jordan, syria) whose conditions made them more prone to commit bidah and fitnah.
Oh i understand the times were different and i would agree with the idea that all sassanid and Byzantine territory would or could be a threat so it had to be conquered i am of the mind though that this idea that this was done peacefully is Ahistory
No cause as I told you before the muslims did not want to take over rule, just to spread islam. so it is a part of sharia for the non muslims to have their own systems, they develop their own court systems, financial, social and educational all with the help of the muslims. the righteous caliphs would build churches burnt down and protect the non muslims. When the non muslim commits a crime he is not punished according to our law. If they get caught drinking they do not get a hundred lashes. Adultery death. Unless this is what they themselves administered in their own courts, where their own laws are upheld. Yes but all under Muslim rule, under Muslim Taxes , ultimately under Muslim overlordship through Sharia.


It is only later when some of them got big heads because of their wealth and position that they displaced themselves and possibly committed huge transgressions. this is part of the reason Allah sent the Ta Tar(mongols, the khan etc.) to take out the corrupt leaders. Allah doesn't care, if a leader displaces power and commits injustice He will remove them even if they are muslim.

And as you can see that is what happened. The same will go for every other one as well. Eventually they all will come to an end. Whether at the hands of the believers or themselves. History always repeats itself. As Allah says there is nothing new under the sun.


And whether you win or lose it is all a test from Allah, did you as a leader do all you could to uphold justice, and administer the blessings of Allah to the people under you. did you uphold all the rights that every person have. Were you just in your thinking and looked at only the hearts and not skin or type person. did you rule by the book of Allah and the sunnah of the Messenger. that is what the deal is and that is what all the leaders will be asked. did you in your decision making do it to please Allah.

Not many can say they...

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great response as usual

kai said:

Oh i understand the times were different and i would agree with the idea that all sassanid and Byzantine territory would or could be a threat so it had to be conquered i am of the mind though that this idea that this was done peacefully is Ahistory

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Not because it was a threat but more because they as leaders of these superpowers became tyrannical and unjust to their people causing corruption and mischief in the land. they committed injustice, made the people downtrodden by keeping them illiterate, taxing them unjustly, allowing the spread of injustice, crime and immorality, among many other problems. Alot of what we see today in many modern nations. Spreading the idea of "imperialism" as defined by many. The muslims came to remove that. And give the people the chance to rule themselves. the people were given back their freedom to establish themselves under their rules. And if it was a Christian community. Many times as history has shown us that the people who often went into other countries to exact their form of rule. that many times, the resources of the people are taken, everyone who is not seen of value is either exterminated or enslaved. All the religious practices and customs of the indiginous people are replaced by the occupiers. They are all made subject to the rules and regulations of the new government which would mostly create new laws to keep the "new" citizens under conditions which will help in their oppression. they would eradicate their former ways of life and indoctrine the people with their own values and principles through means such as eugenics or as hitler did with the master race, or the spartans with casting all defective babies over a cliff etc.

The muslims can not, and did not come in on any of these principles nor are they allowed.

Yes but all under Muslim rule, under Muslim Taxes , ultimately under Muslim overlordship through Sharia.

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No their own rule, they only pay the jizyah, and sharia allows for them to rule themselves and establish their own societies. It is just the muslim army will destroy anyone who comes near them, for that is one of the conditions of the jizyah.

And do not forget that in the time of Omar. Every citizen and that was everyone who paid the apportioned tax to the state. Either Jizyah or Zakat, or booty in war. Everyone was paid a stipend from Bait ul Mahl. And when they got older in age the responsibility of paying it is lifted, and they are given an additional stipend from the treasury. Why? Cause the muslims are just. they are upholding the rule and justice of Allah.

They muslim government just protects its subjects and helps promote the society. Cause the other societies were weaker. They were poor, undereducated, oppressed, conditioned. So it is our duty to bring them up out of the fitnah, and help them in life. for that is the fundamental principles of islam. Want for your brother what you want for yourself. if you have food for one, you have food for two. A muslim is someone whom the people are at peace with the actions of his hands and tongue. And many other statements about justice, and looking out for mankind. these are the principles of our forefathers and predeccesors and the only examples of our faith.

great response as usual

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It is all from Allah.

Mujahid Mohammed said:

Not because it was a threat but more because they as leaders of these superpowers became tyrannical and unjust to their people causing corruption and mischief in the land. they committed injustice, made the people downtrodden by keeping them illiterate, taxing them unjustly, allowing the spread of injustice, crime and immorality, among many other problems. Alot of what we see today in many modern nations. Spreading the idea of "imperialism" as defined by many. The muslims came to remove that. And give the people the chance to rule themselves. the people were given back their freedom to establish themselves under their rules. And if it was a Christian community. Many times as history has shown us that the people who often went into other countries to exact their form of rule. that many times, the resources of the people are taken, everyone who is not seen of value is either exterminated or enslaved. All the religious practices and customs of the indiginous people are replaced by the occupiers. They are all made subject to the rules and regulations of the new government which would mostly create new laws to keep the "new" citizens under conditions which will help in their oppression. they would eradicate their former ways of life and indoctrine the people with their own values and principles through means such as eugenics or as hitler did with the master race, or the spartans with casting all defective babies over a cliff etc.

The muslims can not, and did not come in on any of these principles nor are they allowed.

No their own rule, they only pay the jizyah, and sharia allows for them to rule themselves and establish their own societies. It is just the muslim army will destroy anyone who comes near them, for that is one of the conditions of the jizyah.

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And do not forget that in the time of Omar. Every citizen and that was everyone who paid the apportioned tax to the state. Either Jizyah or Zakat, or booty in war. Everyone was paid a stipend from Bait ul Mahl. And when they got older in age the responsibility of paying it is lifted, and they are given an additional stipend from the treasury. Why? Cause the muslims are just. they are upholding the rule and justice of Allah.

They muslim government just protects its subjects and helps promote the society. Cause the other societies were weaker. They were poor, undereducated, oppressed, conditioned. So it is our duty to bring them up out of the fitnah, and help them in life. for that is the fundamental principles of islam. Want for your brother what you want for yourself. if you have food for one, you have food for two. A muslim is someone whom the people are at peace with the actions of his hands and tongue. And many other statements about justice, and looking out for mankind. these are the principles of our forefathers and predeccesors and the only examples of our faith.




It is all from Allah.

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Lets look at Egypt one of the earliest conquests and a Byzantine province at the time, I am in total agreement that any Byzantine areas would have needed to be conquered but are you saying then that they were allowed to rule themselves under Muslim protection?then is this not true?

For two centuries after the conquest, Egypt was a province ruled by a line of governors appointed by the caliphs in the east. Egypt provided abundant grain and tax revenue. In time most of the people accepted the Muslim faith, and the Arabic language became the language of government, culture, and commerce. The Arabization of the country was aided by the continued settlement of Arab tribes in Egypt.


Religion in Egypt - Arab Conquest


The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations is Empire Building. the Arab armies didnt overthrow the Byzantines and go home. Egypts economic and political entity was decided ultimately by the Caliph.




and here:


'Umar, however, was one of the great political geniuses of history. While the empire was expanding at a mind-numbing rate beneath his leaderhsip, he also began to build the political structure that would hold together the vast empire that was being built. 'Umar did not require that non-Muslim populations convert to Islam nor did he try to centralize government, as the Persians had done. Instead, he allowed subject populations to retain their religion, language, customs, and government relatively untouched. The only intrusion would be a governor (amir) and, sometimes, a financial officer called an 'amil, or agent.

His most far-reaching innovations were in the area of building a financial structure to the empire. He understood that the most important aspect of the empire was a stable financial structure for the government. To this end, he built an efficient system of taxation and brought the military directly under the financial control of the state. He also founded the diwan, a unique Islamic institution. The diwan consisted of individuals that were important to the Islamic faith and the Islamic world, such as the followers of Muhammad. Their contribution to the faith was so great that they were given pensions to live off of—this freed them up to pursue religious and ethical studies and so provide religious or ethical leadership to the rest of the Islamic world.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/CALIPH.HTM