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is the religion of peace really the religion of war

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Hi Mujahid Mohammed

well in fact there are two versions,
Hey Kai,

there can never be two versions in terms of history perhaps in theories or concepts but not in something established through evidence, one is the true history and the other has to be made up, even if a little. And that is usually the case unfortunately... History isn't like theology or christianity where one can come up with their own version. It either happened this way or it didn't.. And what was the intention. Why did Abu Bakr do what he did in the manner he did it. In history all accounts must be given cause you can say what happened and put a spin on it.

Like many of the wars that was started, what happened and what was told are two different things. Pearl Harbor for example, we were told there was no warning other's with historical record have proven otherwise


that the expansion was self defence or it was not self defence but just plain old expansionism. and it was Abu Bakr that expanded into Persian Teritory and took Iraq from Persia.
Expansionism is what sense? the way the Persian and Romans usually expanded by instituting many of Sun Zu arts of war philosophy where they usurped the wealth of the people, often eradicated and murdered 100's of 1000's, oppressed and manipulated the masses... Now if we look at how and what Abu Bakr did and how sharia law was implimented. Because again they were just spreading Islam. and it is a part of sharia to allow the people to govern and regulate themselves within their communities and to be just.

I am not arguing whether it happened or not, the thread originated by someone more or less saying that the expansion was peaceful and the concept of Islamic Military expansion was Ahistory or untrue
The expansion was peaceful but often times when one opposses those in power who as history has shown is often corrupt and immoral. One may run into resistance from the elite of the society and they are the one's who are generally causeing the major corruption and problems in the society as a whole because of the corrupt man made laws they institute. But the people for the most part welcomed the change because of the justice and morality it brought.

And let us not forget it is a part of sharia that those that take the covenant are to be protected by the muslim army from any aggressor abroad or from within. And they themselves are not required to go in jihad.
 
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kai

ragamuffin
Hey Kai,

there can never be two versions in terms of history perhaps in theories or concepts but not in something established through evidence, one is the true history and the other has to be made up, even if a little. And that is usually the case unfortunately... History isn't like theology or christianity where one can come up with their own version. It either happened this way or it didn't.. And what was the intention. Why did Abu Bakr do what he did in the manner he did it. In history all accounts must be given cause you can say what happened and put a spin on it.

Like many of the wars that was started, what happened and what was told are two different things. Pearl Harbor for example, we were told there was no warning other's with historical record have proven otherwise


Expansionism is what sense? the way the Persian and Romans usually expanded by instituting many of Sun Zu arts of war philosophy where they usurped the wealth of the people, often eradicated and murdered 100's of 1000's, oppressed and manipulated the masses... Now if we look at how and what Abu Bakr did and how sharia law was implimented. Because again they were just spreading Islam. and it is a part of sharia to allow the people to govern and regulate themselves within their communities and to be just.

The expansion was peaceful
but often times when one opposses those in power who as history has shown is often corrupt and immoral. One may run into resistance from the elite of the society and they are the one's who are generally causeing the major corruption and problems in the society as a whole because of the corrupt man made laws they institute. But the people for the most part welcomed the change because of the justice and morality it brought.

And let us not forget it is a part of sharia that those that take the covenant are to be protected by the muslim army from any aggressor abroad or from within. And they themselves are not required to go in jihad.


Hi Mujahid Mohammed


i see you are of the opinion that the expansion was peaceful do you have any reason to beleive this?


we have the expansion into Iraq

After entering Iraq with his army of 18,000, Khalid won decisive victories in four consecutive battles: Battle of Chains, fought in April 633 A.D; Battle of River, fought in the 3rd week of April 633 A.D; Battle of Walaja, fought in May 633 A.D (where he successfully used a double envelopment manoeuvre), and Battle of Ullais, fought in the mid of May, 633 A.D. In the last week of May 633 A.D, Hira, the capital city of Iraq, fell to the Muslims in the Siege of Hira.


these are Arab armies in Persian territory fighting and laying siege , what leads you to beleive this is a peaceful expansion?



Khalid ibn al-Walid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Hi Mujahid Mohammed


i see you are of the opinion that the expansion was peaceful do you have any reason to beleive this?
as I said it was peaceful because of the intention. Often times when people do invasions of some sort, history has shown that generally the people invading are doing it to usurp the wealth and resources of the people where often times the invading people are forced to accept whatever is given to them. The authority they had is removed and generally the poor weak and disenfranchised are exterminated and the people are put under extreme oppression.

Now in terms of Islam the invasion into other territorities as people like to refer to it as is not to take the wealth of the people but to spread islam and then give the people the abiltity to govern themselves. Now as the Quran teaches us it is often the elite of the society who are often times using their position and power to keep people under the oppression that man's word often brings. The religion of Allah is just and it is the responsibility of the muslims to spread that.

when the treaty of Hudabiyah was in effect the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him sent letters out to the leaders of the words. All received them well, and insha Allah I will post one in particular when the letter was sent to Heraclius. But anyways Kisra the leader of Persia, ridiculed the Messeger spit on the letter and tore it in half. This was to say the least a huge disrespect. and in those days when leaders did that to one another often times it was looked at as a declaration of war.

Now let us look at the state of the Persian empire. In it you would find many parallels of Rome. The elite oppressing the massess. Using their power and position to go out and plunder and exploit. the history of corruption, tyranny, oppression, and demorality in these countries is quite huge. so of course the elite of the corrupt societies will not just give up all the wealth, debauchery, and power they possess. Much the same as the people of Mekka who used to position as keepers of the Kabba to amass huge wealth, while keeping the massess under horrible conditions.

So of course Kisra wasn't going to give up his position. So the army was sent because of Kisra's unwillingness to even discuss anything with the Messenger of Allah peace and blessings be upon him. But this was done after the prophet's death. for they first after Quraish engaged the Romans.

the justice and righteousness of Islam was brought and Kisra was to either accept the rule of Allah and reject his oppression and tyranny he brought or he had to be removed by force. Cause he himself wasn't going to give it up.

It is impossible to always resort every matter in a peaceful way for as Allah says there are some people who will cause corruption and mischief in the earth. And if no one stops them every masjid, church and synagogue where Allah name is mentioned will be destroyed. Tyrants and oppressors never lay down easily. They always put up fights and they do it not to spread justice or peace. Or a more righteous way of life it is always to benefit their own desires and needs.



we have the expansion into Iraq

After entering Iraq with his army of 18,000, Khalid won decisive victories in four consecutive battles: Battle of Chains, fought in April 633 A.D; Battle of River, fought in the 3rd week of April 633 A.D; Battle of Walaja, fought in May 633 A.D (where he successfully used a double envelopment manoeuvre), and Battle of Ullais, fought in the mid of May, 633 A.D. In the last week of May 633 A.D, Hira, the capital city of Iraq, fell to the Muslims in the Siege of Hira.


these are Arab armies in Persian territory fighting and laying siege , what leads you to beleive this is a peaceful expansion?



Khalid ibn al-Walid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wikepedia is never a really good source.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
as I said it was peaceful because of the intention.
Doesn't it strike you as a peculiar notion that sending in an army, armed to the teeth and ready to fight, could be viewed as a peaceful intention? For example, Muslim forces were not like the UN Peacekeeping forces of their day sent in between two or more fighting groups

Often times when people do invasions of some sort, history has shown that generally the people invading are doing it to usurp the wealth and resources of the people where often times the invading people are forced to accept whatever is given to them.
And here, Muslim armies almost wrote the book on the subject. Heck, there is even a chapter of the Qur'an devoted to the Spoils of war. Islam must have been very attractive to many a young psychopath in that they could murder, rape and pillage and still get the highest rewards for entertaining themselves.

The authority they had is removed and generally the poor weak and disenfranchised are exterminated and the people are put under extreme oppression.
And being faced with the choice of accepting Islam, accepting dhimmitude or accepting death is not extreme oppression?

Now in terms of Islam the invasion into other territorities as people like to refer to it as is not to take the wealth of the people but to spread islam and then give the people the abiltity to govern themselves.
That is hardly accurate, Mujahid Mohammed. If it was accurate then why did Allah feel compelled to devote an entire chapter on the spoils of war, unlike in the texts of any other religion? Obviously there was a great deal of pillaging going on by the Muslim forces.

Now as the Quran teaches us it is often the elite of the society who are often times using their position and power to keep people under the oppression that man's word often brings. The religion of Allah is just and it is the responsibility of the muslims to spread that.
Yes, that makes sense, enforcing belief in your invisible friend on weaker rivals. Given the alternatives they faced it is little surprise that so many opted to convert to Islam.

when the treaty of Hudabiyah was in effect the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him sent letters out to the leaders of the words. All received them well, and insha Allah I will post one in particular when the letter was sent to Heraclius. But anyways Kisra the leader of Persia, ridiculed the Messeger spit on the letter and tore it in half. This was to say the least a huge disrespect. and in those days when leaders did that to one another often times it was looked at as a declaration of war.
One could also say that Muhammad's letter was in fact the opening salvo of the war given that he could probably have surmised how his overtures would be taken.

For example, if I know fairly well how you will react to a given idea, and then I send you that idea with the express sentiment that you should accept the idea, I can be confident that you will likely vehemently reject my overture. It would be fairly disengenuous for me to use your reaction as a pretext for sending in my forces to subdue you as it was my letter that caused your reaction, being the thinly veiled threat that it was.

In this way, it is not the Persians who started it. Their reactions was fairly predictable and to use that reaction as the pretext for going to war is utterly and completely laughable. It's hard to believe you (and other Muslims) are actually serious in suggesting that Muhammad's letter is not the original cause.

I hope that this example is clear enough.

Now let us look at the state of the Persian empire. In it you would find many parallels of Rome. The elite oppressing the massess. Using their power and position to go out and plunder and exploit.
And Muslim armies are different how exactly?

So the army was sent because of Kisra's unwillingness to even discuss anything with the Messenger of Allah.
But given the nature of the "invitation" just what exactly was there to discuss? Terms of surrender?

the justice and righteousness of Islam was brought and Kisra was to either accept the rule of Allah and reject his oppression and tyranny he brought or he had to be removed by force. Cause he himself wasn't going to give it up.
So much for the "no compulsion in religion" clause, eh?

It is impossible to always resort every matter in a peaceful way for as Allah says there are some people who will cause corruption and mischief in the earth. And if no one stops them every masjid, church and synagogue where Allah name is mentioned will be destroyed. Tyrants and oppressors never lay down easily. They always put up fights and they do it not to spread justice or peace.
Well, if one looks at the present day one can hardly say that Islam is a bastion of peace and good will to all humanity. Islam is the only religion that requires all other religious instituations on their captured lands to apply for permission to rebuild or refurbish old structures. Usually that permission is very slow in being granted or is simply refused.

Or a more righteous way of life it is always to benefit their own desires and needs.
I find this term "a more righteous way of life" to be troubling. Do I get a choice to reject it without having an army sent my way to convince me of the error of my thinking?
 

kai

ragamuffin
Hi Mujahid Mohammed

I think YmirGF has responded with the same ideas as my own. Its interesting that you see regime change as being legitimate. and so are you really saying that all the countries that eventually came into the caliphate ruled territories, never paid taxes to the invading Government? that the Muslims never assimilated any resources from these territories human or material?
 
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Fatihah

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE:Odion]But if there was..? :)

Response: If there was oppression than it is up to the people to decide who they want help from.

Quote: Odion
Hmmm, so for example, if the people of Spain then said, "Thanks for sorting everything out and ridding us of oppression, now, go back home. See you, byeeee! :flirt: " ... would that work? :D

Response: I would find that odd because if they go then that would leave them back to the situation they were in before the muslims arrived.
 
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kai

ragamuffin
[QUOTE:Odion]But if there was..? :)

Response: If there was oppression than it is up to the people to decide who they want help from.

Quote: Odion
Hmmm, so for example, if the people of Spain then said, "Thanks for sorting everything out and ridding us of oppression, now, go back home. See you, byeeee! :flirt: " ... would that work? :D

Response: I would find that odd because if they go then that would leave them back to the situation they were in before the muslims arrived.



Fatihah come on pleeease ! the invasion and occupation of spain was imperialism pure and simple, How on earth this peaceful, helpful Invasion idea came about puzzles the heck out of me.
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Spain was occupied already by others when the Muslims came, and don't forget that it was the people of Spain who asked for Muslims' help overthere.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Spain was occupied already by others when the Muslims came,
But did they come in peace? was this a peaceful entry into Visigothic Hispania?

and don't forget that it was the people of Spain who asked for Muslims' help overthere.

again that is one version of the truth of what really happened, i believe its unclear what this claim is all about and that its only Islamic sources from a much later date that claim this.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here...I heard it from practitioners...
Couple years ago...I was channel hopping and came across an instance where three men...one after the other...stood behind a podium and explained their viewpoints of faith....Islam.

One was dressed in white formal robe...one in black...and one in street clothes.
The man in white spoke firmly to the effect that Islam is all and nothing else is acceptable.
The man in black...spoke..."Islam is a religion...not of peace."
He was boo'd and hissed upon.
The plain looking fellow spoke as most people do...of peace, and freedom to believe what you should follow.

I suspect..all manner of faith...each to his own will have the same diversity.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Military History Online - The Muslim Horde's Easy Invasion of Iberia




if the invasion of Iraq by the coalition had the intention of removing a dictator and allowing the individual Iraqis to have a say in the eventual formation of a representative government. then according to some reasoning in this thread That invasion would be considered peaceful. or is it only Islamic armies that can peacefully invade and carry out regime change?
 
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Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Fatihah come on pleeease ! the invasion and occupation of spain was imperialism pure and simple, How on earth this peaceful, helpful Invasion idea came about puzzles the heck out of me.

Response: The muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. If their occupation was based on imperialism than by the time you were born you would have been under muslim authority because the muslims had the power and ability to establish power throughout the world with eaze. You can't rule for 800 years and be weak. And yet for 800 years the muslims of Spain only controlled Spain. This is a clear example of muslims being peaceful because for 800 plus years they invaded no one even when they had the ability to do so.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Response: The muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. If their occupation was based on imperialism than by the time you were born you would have been under muslim authority because the muslims had the power and ability to establish power throughout the world with eaze. You can't rule for 800 years and be weak. And yet for 800 years the muslims of Spain only controlled Spain. This is a clear example of muslims being peaceful because for 800 plus years they invaded no one even when they had the ability to do so.

by the time i was born the Islamic Empire had waned just like every other Empire before it, The Muslims never controlled all of Spain and there were periods of peace and war the "Reconquista" took hundreds years from the taking back of Toledo in 1085 and Granada in 1492. clearly not a time of peace and joy for everyone. A clear example of Muslims being peaceful would be no invasions and no Empire at all. don't you think?
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
by the time i was born the Islamic Empire had waned just like every other Empire before it, The Muslims never controlled all of Spain and there were periods of peace and war the "Reconquista" took hundreds years from the taking back of Toledo in 1085 and Granada in 1492. clearly not a time of peace and joy for everyone. A clear example of Muslims being peaceful would be no invasions and no Empire at all. don't you think?

Response: Not when they are attacking you or supressing others.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Response: Not when they are attacking you or supressing others.

did the Visigoths in Hispania attack the Muslims then ? and just who was suppressing who? and for what reason were the Muslims in North Africa in order to invade Hispania in the frst place.

and you do realise you sound like George Bush.:)
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Doesn't it strike you as a peculiar notion that sending in an army, armed to the teeth and ready to fight, could be viewed as a peaceful intention?
No, it doesn't especially after knowing the history of Persia, and the hostility of the persian leaders to Arabs. They hated them or any other forms of racism and bigotry. And if you had read my earlier post that me and Odion were discussing where I said that the elite will never give up power so easily. Look at the known history of the imperialistic spread of other nations and the outcome and result of it.

For example, Muslim forces were not like the UN Peacekeeping forces of their day sent in between two or more fighting groups
You are right the Muslim forces are not like the UN "peacekeeping" as you say forces. The Muslims upheld justice, whereas sometimes the UN forces would be guilty of oppression and tyranny and they do have limitations in their rules of engagement. And that is not always the case with the UN fighting forces.

And here, Muslim armies almost wrote the book on the subject. Heck, there is even a chapter of the Qur'an devoted to the Spoils of war. Islam must have been very attractive to many a young psychopath in that they could murder, rape and pillage and still get the highest rewards for entertaining themselves.
You are disregarding the limits in which muslims can take in war. And the Quranic chapter details what is allowed and what is not. For as history shows before the Quran many did whatever they wanted, no rules of engagement and took from the booty whatever and however.

Islam might not be as attracted to "many a young psychopath" as you say due to the fact that as mentioned before and in previous, which you are aware of for you have been on RF to long and have spoken to many of us on this issue. They are not allowed to rape, pillage, plunder, murder, as the Quran and the sunnah detail. We are only allowed to fight ENEMY COMBATANTS, That is something your UN soldiers, and armies of other superpowers at the time such as Rome and Persia, that is something their armies engaged in. But some of us know you know this already so it seems you are just playing and trying to start beef....

And being faced with the choice of accepting Islam, accepting dhimmitude or accepting death is not extreme oppression?
No when you are looking at it from the point where the orientalists and historians have established that the Persian and Roman citizens where being extremely oppressed by their rulers to begin with. The persian empire is known for its brutalilty to its subject.

That is hardly accurate, Mujahid Mohammed. If it was accurate then why did Allah feel compelled to devote an entire chapter on the spoils of war, unlike in the texts of any other religion? Obviously there was a great deal of pillaging going on by the Muslim forces.
What is hardly accurate, have you even read surah Anfal? the Surah is talking mostly about the battle of Badr. These were the verses revealed during the first battle the muslims had with Quraish. And can you give me the verses where Allah says to go and pillage rape and murder. since this as you say details the "spoils of war"

Yes, that makes sense, enforcing belief in your invisible friend on weaker rivals. Given the alternatives they faced it is little surprise that so many opted to convert to Islam.
what alternatives are you talking about? It is a simple tax, and something Omar made them stop paying when they got old and paid all those in a similar condtion a stipend. All the citizens of the islamic state were paid a stipend. do you think Persia paid its citizens from its treasury. there are no taxes in Islam, no insurance, no sales, no kings tax. NO social security. No liquor tax. Nothing. Dude seriously go look at your history of the past nations and the corruption and oppression that came from these nations.

One could also say that Muhammad's letter was in fact the opening salvo of the war given that he could probably have surmised how his overtures would be taken.

For example, if I know fairly well how you will react to a given idea, and then I send you that idea with the express sentiment that you should accept the idea, I can be confident that you will likely vehemently reject my overture. It would be fairly disengenuous for me to use your reaction as a pretext for sending in my forces to subdue you as it was my letter that caused your reaction, being the thinly veiled threat that it was.

In this way, it is not the Persians who started it. Their reactions was fairly predictable and to use that reaction as the pretext for going to war is utterly and completely laughable. It's hard to believe you (and other Muslims) are actually serious in suggesting that Muhammad's letter is not the original cause.

I hope that this example is clear enough.
so since you have not stated what the letter said you as it sounds just assumed Muhammed sent something to start a fight. so since you didn't actually read the letter sent or any of the other like letters sent to the other rulers of the world. Your example isn't quite as clear since the letter sent to Khisra was the same one sent to the others. Kisra was the only one who treated the Messenger rudely, then spit on and tore up the document sent. All the other letters were received. And it was recieved without hostility. Even Heraclius the roman leader at the time did not respond with such arrogance and hostility.

And Muslim armies are different how exactly?
Many ways, for one the limits in jihad. Only enemy combatants are engaged. and they gave the people the ability to govern themselves. Its apart of sharia all this mentioned before.

But given the nature of the "invitation" just what exactly was there to discuss? Terms of surrender?
so tell us the invitation since you seem to know it so well.

So much for the "no compulsion in religion" clause, eh?
Muslims are to fight oppression regardless of the person and his religion. Even if he is muslim he is to be fought until justice is reigning supreme and oppression and tyranny are eradicated.

Well, if one looks at the present day one can hardly say that Islam is a bastion of peace and good will to all humanity.
It's a good thing I follow the Quran and sunnah and the muslim from the righteous generations and not the people today. You are looking at the people. Islam is one thing and what the people are doing is something else. You can keep trying to put islam in this category of psycho's and exremists but islam has made a disclosure about every negative statement made towards it. The Quran and the prophet have clearly defined what is Islam. The Quran and the Sunnah was not brought to us in the present day. And not one leader today is anywhere close to the justice Omar brought.

So the proof is in the pudding. And that is the Quran and sunnah. YOu can keep chasing these quote un quote extremist groups and left and right wing this and that, and trying to put them in the class of Muhammed and his companions but you will fail every time.




Islam is the only religion that requires all other religious instituations on their captured lands to apply for permission to rebuild or refurbish old structures. Usually that permission is very slow in being granted or is simply refused.
then why did Omar and some of the others caliphs rebuild churches and synagogues when they were attacked by other forces outside of the muslims.

I find this term "a more righteous way of life" to be troubling. Do I get a choice to reject it without having an army sent my way to convince me of the error of my thinking?
sure just pay the tax, the one tax and no others. All the other taxes you paid to the state become abolished but just the jizyah. Yes the army won't be sent. Look at Indonesia not one muslim army was sent to fight them.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
by the time i was born the Islamic Empire had waned just like every other Empire before it, The Muslims never controlled all of Spain and there were periods of peace and war the "Reconquista" took hundreds years from the taking back of Toledo in 1085 and Granada in 1492. clearly not a time of peace and joy for everyone. A clear example of Muslims being peaceful would be no invasions and no Empire at all. don't you think?
Not if Islam's teaches us to stop oppression, tyranny and injustice no matter where or who it is committed by. Even if its a muslim. The laws of Allah are just. Even to the non muslim.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
again that is one version of the truth of what really happened, i believe its unclear what this claim is all about and that its only Islamic sources from a much later date that claim this.
By definition there is only one truth. Especially when talking of actual events. It either happened or didn't, and it either happened this way or it didn't.

Bush either lied about WMD or he didn't. Saddam either killed his people or he didn't. Every body has their own version, but the truth has only one version. This is part of people's problem they think everything everyone says is the truth. I think people are so comfortable with

now if you feel the islamic sources are this and that. pst the ones you mention that claim from later date. So i can compare them with mine. so we can see which version is more likely cause it is possible the source couldn't be authentic. Give me the earlier one's that state something different.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Hi Mujahid Mohammed

I think YmirGF has responded with the same ideas as my own. Its interesting that you see regime change as being legitimate.
It is only legitimate if the intention and application is on what the Quran and sunnah stipulate. fighting oppression, tyranny etc are among the legitamite reasons for regime change. And once the oppressors are removed. The power is given back to the people where they are the one's who rule themselves. They elect themselves, establish their own courts, communities etc.


and so are you really saying that all the countries that eventually came into the caliphate ruled territories, never paid taxes to the invading Government? that the Muslims never assimilated any resources from these territories human or material?
The citizen's just pay jizah, up until they get older and are unable, then they recieve a stipend from Bait ul mahl. kinda like a retirement check. Their is the story of Omar when he met the Jewish man begging. He asked him why are you begging. the man said you make us pay jizyah when we are young and now i am old and unable to pay it so i am begging. Omar took him to his house gave him money, took him to treausury and paid him more and said from now on, everyone in a similar condition recieves a stipend from the treasury and they do not pay the jizyah. I repeat they do not pay the jizyah. Only if the resources where being used in something illegal by the state. I personally have never read anything where someone from among the righteous caliphs was guilty of assimilating the resouces of territory human and material... Omar did once take a piece of land from one of sahaba cause he wasn't using it. and Omar wanted to make it a public grazing place for the people to take their animals. Bilal didn't want to give it up cause it was given to him by the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him. But he wasn't using it, it was just wasted. so Omar took it and paid him and turned it into a public grazing place for the poor.


so how is this an injustice.
 
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