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The Evidence for ID THREAD!!

Passerbye

Member
So "The Voice of Reason" you say that if he was to come speak to you personally or rise up a family member of yours or appear before you. Ok, lets be logical about this, since you seem to love that so much.

For me, personally, if God were to appear before me, or speak to me, or bring someone in my family back from the dead... something along those lines would be empirical proof that would satisfy my needs.

Oh, would it really? Doctors and such raise people from the dead all the time. People have gone into states where they were medically considered dead, just to wake up or start breathing again. People have seen things in this, amount of time considered dead, and yet are still discredited as nothing special. Would you not just start discrediting this too if someone just woke up in your family? If a family member rising from the dead is all you need, go to Africa. I'm sure their is some religion in Nigeria that practices enough voodoo to do such, but it would probably cost you a few babies... you know, for sacrifices. If God were to just grant your request, out of nothing, would you really listen? Would not the world discredit it? Would you not be considered a fool for believing God did something like that for you? To quote Jesus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' “



Would you REALY listen?

Oh and pah, the Bible says "In the Beginning God Created the Heavens and the Earth" Genesis 1:1
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
Since we are not told anything was before and he says he was the first, it is clear that there was nothing before, if taken at face value.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Passerbye said:
Oh, would it really? Doctors and such raise people from the dead all the time.
Give me one - just one - situation where a doctor has raised a person from the dead. Understand that I am not asking for some anecdotal story about some guy in Papua, New Guinea that appeared to be dead. I want you to provide me with one - just one - case that demonstrates a clear state of death for an individual that was later resurrected.

TVOR

PS - quoting Jesus or the Bible to an Atheist (Pah) or an Agnostic (myself) is pointless.

 

Tawn

Active Member
Hes probably talking about people whos hearts have stopped for a few minutes..
Im sure Voice of Reason would be suitably impressed if God managed to bring back someone who had been dead - properly dead for a few weeks..
Why is it that all fortuitous events are seen as Gods work? Its rather suspect that God always seems to act within the boundaries of science.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Passerbye said:
What, no comments? Tawn? The Voice of Reason?
I'll tell you what I noticed - this thread is straying from it's original topic and many have contributed to that.

Second, the examples Passerbye linked were anecdotal - never a good source of truth.

This topic of coming back from the dead should be the basis of another thread.
 

Passerbye

Member
Second, the examples Passerbye linked were anecdotal - never a good source of truth.
Anecdotal. Okay, would you like more than. I can try to find ones less "anecdotal" for you.
This topic of coming back from the dead should be the basis of another thread.
Is this not "The Evidence for ID THREAD!!" thread?
 

Pah

Uber all member
Passerbye said:
Anecdotal. Okay, would you like more than. I can try to find ones less "anecdotal" for you.
Is this not "The Evidence for ID THREAD!!" thread?
No! You are talking about an individual dying and returning not about the begginning of life.

Start another thread when you find better evidence.
 

Tawn

Active Member
Passerbye.. post those examples to a new thread.. ill look over them properly some time.. I read the first one and it sounds very unconvincing.. ;) I know you said we'd laugh - but it seems deliberately contrived to 'scare' people into worshipping Christ. But lets stay on topic.

In another thead (the should creationism be taught in schools thread) ES said this:
Creationists don't need evidence. Lack of evidence does not mean lack of truth


Could it be that there is no evidence for ID? Or is ES mistaken?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Tawn said:
Passerbye.. post those examples to a new thread.. ill look over them properly some time.. I read the first one and it sounds very unconvincing.. ;) I know you said we'd laugh - but it seems deliberately contrived to 'scare' people into worshipping Christ. But lets stay on topic.

In another thead (the should creationism be taught in schools thread) ES said this:
[/i]

Could it be that there is no evidence for ID? Or is ES mistaken?
Hi Tawn,
I may be completely wrong, but for me, the proof of ID is in what is around you, in the world, the universe. Nothing comes out of 'nothingness' - perhaps it's some form of 'cop-out', but my views are that someone/thing did design the whole start up sequence of the universe - simply because of the above point - about there needing to have been a start to it all. From then, evolution took off (well, that's the way I see it) - it is the only exp[lanation, for me, that answers "where did everything actually start ?" - it seems to be the most logical answer.:)
 

Passerbye

Member
Could it be that there is no evidence for ID? Or is ES mistaken?
I believe there is evidence for ID, however, (just like with evolution) we need to look harder to find
pure evidence. Untill then, it's just partly speculation, and ways to look at data from different angles.
Its rather suspect that God always seems to act within the boundaries of science.
Well, If I created rules to a world, and wasn't trying to get "everyone" to believe in the miraculous things I do, I would do the same.
 

Passerbye

Member
Nothing comes out of 'nothingness'
Actualy, not to take their side but I must interject on this, energy has been known to appear in a vacuum. While this doesn't say a lot, being as that maybe there was energy there just too small to detect, it does give scientists an edge on such things. Energy, also, seems to be created and destroyed in sub-atomic particles, so fast that the rules don't seem to apply to them.
 

Passerbye

Member
There is another point, which I just brought up without even knowing it at the time. How do scientists explain the way sub-atomic particles behave? It seems to be very difficult for them, without agreeing a creator is involved in the decisions made. They can only create and destroy energy if it is for a very small amount of time, so small that it seems like they are trying not to be seen doing such. It seems to me like something must be watching them to make them act that way.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Passerbye said:
It seems to me like something must be watching them to make them act that way.
Why? You pick up a rock, then drop it: 'Look at the rock. All it seems to do is fall. It seems to me like something must be watching them to make them act that way.'
 

Tawn

Active Member
Passerbye said:
It seems to be very difficult for them, without agreeing a creator is involved in the decisions made. [/QUOTE]
Why is it that God is a fallback position for you?
Scientists cant explain this... so it must be God..:rolleyes:

'Science' is the search for answers. Not a set of answers as religion is.
If there are gaps in science's knowledge it does not prove God. However, one would think that religion had all the answers to begin with.. yet absolute morality is in serious doubt with advances in psychology.. the earth isnt the centre of the universe, but in some utterly insignificant part of the universe..
People 2000 years ago didnt understand a lot about the world around them - yet we persist in letting their dogma rule our lives. :bonk:

Sub-atomic particles have not been fully investigated.. simply because it is so difficult for them to be produced. Whether energy is being created or not you and I cannot say at this time. There may indeed be a well of energy we are unaware of. There may well be energy being created from nothing - which would be marvelous!!
This would suggest God.. but lets not speculate on what hasnt happened yet.
Sub atomic partiles hiding?? Oh please dont be ridiculous.
---
Energy appearing in vacuums. Whats so amazing about that? Space is a vacuum - yet light (energy) travels through it. The energy obviously came from outside the vacuum. :rolleyes:
---
Well, If I created rules to a world, and wasn't trying to get "everyone" to believe in the miraculous things I do, I would do the same.
Makes sense - except I though God wanted us to believe in him according to Christianty. Otherwise your statement supports a deistic view of reality.
 

Passerbye

Member
Makes sense - except I though God wanted us to believe in him according to Christianty. Otherwise your statement supports a deistic view of reality.

The bible says on this, as well as a few others:
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a]
Matthew 13:10-15
9Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[a]"
Mark 4:9-12
Many people understand this in different ways.
 
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