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I don't think it matters what we believe.

Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
stephenw said:
Just one example that springs to mind.
I believe violence is wrong and inexcusable in every circumstance. If someone harmed one my children I would brain them.
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I don't presume to tell you what you believe, but that strikes me a contradiction. If you would use violence, does that not mean you consider it excusable, at least in that instance?

stephenw said:
Hi Storm. I don't think our beliefs generally matter compared to our actions
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If you're speaking of valuing one over the other, I agree. "Actions speak louder than words," and often reveal hypocrisy. However, I consider hypocrisy the revelation of the hypocrite's true beliefs, as opposed to what they give lip service to.

and I think this is especially so with regard to our religious beliefs.
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That, I think, depends on the individual. For instance, my theology has little impact on my actions (though I'm working on strengthening the connection), but otoh we have the Westboro Baptist Church. Their actions are dominated by their theology.
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
stephenw said:
Just one example that springs to mind.
I believe violence is wrong and inexcusable in every circumstance. If someone harmed one my children I would brain them.
Click to expand...
I'm against violence in most circumstances, but if someone harmed one of my children I'd smash their faces in without a seconds hesitation. :D
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Storm said:
I don't presume to tell you what you believe,
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Don't worry :D


Storm said:
but that strikes me a contradiction. If you would use violence, does that not mean you consider it excusable, at least in that instance?
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No I believe I would be wrong.
Another example. My grandmother believed that maintaining good health was very important but she smoked 60 a day.
Some religious believe we're all God's children but behave better towards the wealthy.



Storm said:
If you're speaking of valuing one over the other, I agree. "Actions speak louder than words," and often reveal hypocrisy. However, I consider hypocrisy the revelation of the hypocrite's true beliefs, as opposed to what they give lip service to.
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Maybe we're more or less on the same page. I'm saying that the 'true beliefs' that you mention are not conscious but come from a deeper level. I am not saying that we excercise no control over this area but I am saying that it is behaviour and not beliefs that are important.


Storm said:
That, I think, depends on the individual. For instance, my theology has little impact on my actions (though I'm working on strengthening the connection), but otoh we have the Westboro Baptist Church. Their actions are dominated by their theology.
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Again I think we're more or less on the same page. I like you and I detest the Westboro Baptist Church because of their actions.
 
CarlinKnew

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
stephenw said:
Hi Storm. I don't think our beliefs generally matter compared to our actions and I think this is especially so with regard to our religious beliefs.
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But our beliefs are responsible for all of our decisions, which are responsible for all of our actions. Can you name me any act that someone could do that contradicts his beliefs?
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
CarlinKnew said:
But our beliefs are responsible for all of our decisions, which are responsible for all of our actions. Can you name me any act that someone could do that contradicts his beliefs?
Click to expand...
Catholic priest has relationship with a woman
Nazi saves Jew
My Grandmothers belief that health is most important but smokes 60 a day
Evangelist caught with hooker
Policeman caught speeding
Atheist says a prayer
etc etc
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
stephenw said:
Kind of.
I'm saying that I think our conscious minds are only really of any consequence to themselves and are not who or what we are.
I think that what we think we believe is a product of that conscious mind and as such while entertaining, is essentially trivial. I think that how we behave is what is important because that comes from the depths.
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I don't think we should trivialize thinking/the conscious mind, since it exists, and in existence, it makes existence available to us. It exists on a par with all of existence, including what appears to arise from beneath the depths.

"Over-rated" it may be, but also essential.

In the ocean things move unseen. Sound and sight are garbled, consciousness obscured. Up above, on the tips of the waves, foam bubbles into existence with each moment. I imagine you are looking this at the perspective of the foam self-involved, uncaring of what supports its existence. But the ocean knows that even in its uncaring, it is foam expressing foam.

There is a perspective from which we can delight in foam being nothing but foam.
 
G

gzusfrk

Christian
CarlinKnew said:
But our beliefs are responsible for all of our decisions, which are responsible for all of our actions. Can you name me any act that someone could do that contradicts his beliefs?
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some christians, myself included, do , smoking drinking ,cussing, not going to church, anger, the list goes on.some of these things I no longer do, but once did, while believeing it was wrong.
 
CarlinKnew

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
stephenw said:
Catholic priest has relationship with a woman
Nazi saves Jew
My Grandmothers belief that health is most important but smokes 60 a day
Evangelist caught with hooker
Policeman caught speeding
Atheist says a prayer
etc etc
Click to expand...

In all of those cases, there must be a belief behind the action. Let's just take the example of the Catholic priest. He must believe:

a) He might be forgiven
b) God might not exist
c) The Catholic interpretation that priests can't have sex might have been incorrect
d) Hell might not be so bad
e) Some other excuse that permits his action
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
CarlinKnew said:
c) The Catholic interpretation that priests can't have sex might have been incorrect
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This is, in fact, quite recent, and it's only for "Western Catholics", not those who follow Eastern rites; this shows it's a modern invention by a once greedy church, in my opinion.
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
If it does lag, does it exist any less?
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Isn't that a seperate point? I'm not arguing against it's existence :)
Originally Posted by Willamena
I don't think we should trivialize thinking/the conscious mind, since it exists, and in existence, it makes existence available to us.
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Wasn't your point that consciousness makes existence available to us?
 
keithnurse

keithnurse

Active Member
stephenw said:
What do you think?
I feel easier with myself because my belief satisfies my conscious mind. But I don't think it really matters what I think I believe.
Sometimes I feel at one with things, surfing or climbing were great sources of that feeling for me. Bikes too. Sometimes I feel it outside in the early morning - something inside aligns with the universe and everything is just so. But somehow I disappear from the frame. The need of my conscious mind to put a rationale around this has led me to religion and I find the Baha'i faith suits me well.
But I don't think one needs to believe to experience this. Indeed I imagine many atheists have feelings much like I describe mine but their consciousness doesn't need God. It doesn't mean that either position is correct. It just means that our consciousnesses are regarding things from different angles.
I think whoever or whatever I am exists at a level beneath my conscious mind. That what normally passes for my consciousness is just the surface of the mind ocean and is only of any importance to itself.
The important stuff is in the depths of my being. In my longings and in my dreams. What I think I believe is merely the most surface of dressings. What I do is what is important and that is rooted in the depths.
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I don't think it matters whether we believe in any god or goddesses or no gods/goddesses. What we do is much more important than what we SAY we believe. But some beliefs matter, like if you believe that the Jews are involved in a worldwide conspiracy to control the world and destroy white christians, that belief can obviously lead to terrible actions.
 
CarlinKnew

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
keithnurse said:
I don't think it matters whether we believe in any god or goddesses or no gods/goddesses. What we do is much more important than what we SAY we believe. But some beliefs matter, like if you believe that the Jews are involved in a worldwide conspiracy to control the world and destroy white christians, that belief can obviously lead to terrible actions.
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That's an important distinction. What we say we believe, and even what we try to convince ourselves to believe, is not always the same as what we truly believe.

Our beliefs are 100% responsible for our actions.
 
A

Angelfire

Member
stephenw said:
Just one example that springs to mind.
I believe violence is wrong and inexcusable in every circumstance. If someone harmed one my children I would brain them.
Click to expand...



This was my point, you believe violence is wrong so it's unlikely you will engage in act's of violence. Your behavior mirror's your belief's.
 
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