Messiah: Man or Idea?

jewscout · May 4, 2005

from another thread

anami said:
Why everyone thinks the messiah is a person, rather than a message or new level of understanding. A person or prophet brings this message or brings people to this new level of understanding.
Could it be an idea and not a person that rescues from danger?

an interesting concept...could the "messiah" be an idea or concept as opposed to a physical person??

anami · May 4, 2005

jewscout said:
from another thread

an interesting concept...could the "messiah" be an idea or concept as opposed to a physical person??

Well, i obviously think so.

Thanks for starting this thread jewscout, i am interested to see what people think. :woohoo:

Cr0wley · May 4, 2005

Well, I think the idea is one thing, but I believe the messiah is the one that actually teaches this idea and makes it known.

jewscout · May 4, 2005

well messiah supposedly comes from the Hebrew word Moshiach meaning "annointed one" so i'll have to go w/ "What is an acutal person" Alex!:jiggy:

anami · May 4, 2005

Cr0wley said:
Well, I think the idea is one thing, but I believe the messiah is the one that actually teaches this idea and makes it known.

So what is the messiah's divine idea called?

anami · May 4, 2005

jewscout said:
well messiah supposedly comes from the Hebrew word Moshiach meaning "annointed one" so i'll have to go w/ "What is an acutal person" Alex!:jiggy:

Semantics!

ok. Let's say, hypothetically now, that the point of the messiah is an idea. Jesus was just some guy without his divinely gifted progressive thought.

ok, not hypothetically, hebrew and english do not directly translate so everything is debateable, but then in the tradfition of judism so is everything. If i were a rabbi i coould be debating other rabbi's about the possible concept connversion that came with that specfic choice of word translation.

And that the ancient concept could have intended a concept rather than a person.

EnhancedSpirit · May 4, 2005

anami said:
So what is the messiah's divine idea called?

LOVE, AGAPE, AMORE

EnhancedSpirit · May 4, 2005

anami said:
ok, not hypothetically, hebrew and english do not directly translate so everything is debateable.

We have to look at the text in the language that was written and we have to use the definitions that the writers used to express what they were saying.

The word Messiah is only found 2 times in the KJV (Da. 9:25,26) and is translated from the hebrew word Mashiyach: anointed, anointed one; a)of the Messiah, Messianic prince; b)of the king of Israel; c)of the high priest of Israel; d)of Cyrus; d)of the patriarchs as anointed kings.

This hebrew word is actually found 37 times in the KJV, but in these(Lev.{4x},1&2 Samuel{17x}, 1&2 Chron{2x}. Psalms{10x}, Isaiah{1x}, Lam.{1x},and Hab.{1x}) it was translated as the english word, anointed.

If you want to debate the english-hebrew translations, you must understand that the hebrew language is very precise. whereas English one word can have completely different meanings. ie. bow(bow for hair, bow arrows, or bow of boat, or to bend at the waist)

Why is the same hebrew word translated into two different english words? Why was the english word 'Messiah' put in those two verses instead of the word 'anointed' like everywhere else in the book?

Stick of Joseph · May 4, 2005

I think its safe to believe on both, that Christ was an idea and man, but this is what I know is true. Jesus Christ the Messiah was sent of God to take upon the sins of the world that were committed and to be committed. I believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. I believe God knew the only way for us to return to him with the knowledge of good and evil, that we obtained on earth, was to send Christ to die for us. God mad an plan,or idea, of a Christ to take upon sin, and it was to be carried out by Jesus. I believe he is our God and our elder brother, and if he was to return to heaven, he was to obtain a body.

jewscout · May 5, 2005

anami said:
Semantics!

ok. Let's say, hypothetically now, that the point of the messiah is an idea. Jesus was just some guy without his divinely gifted progressive thought.

ok, not hypothetically, hebrew and english do not directly translate so everything is debateable, but then in the tradfition of judism so is everything. If i were a rabbi i coould be debating other rabbi's about the possible concept connversion that came with that specfic choice of word translation.

And that the ancient concept could have intended a concept rather than a person.

I think EnhancedSpirit hit the nail on the head w/ this one. In every context of the word Moshiach it is refering to a single person, that is why the full title is Moshiach ben David. While i will agree that Judaism has a tradition of debate and varying interpretation but i'd imagine even the most liberal minded of rabbis would have to concede that the Moshiach is believed to be an actual person. His ideas won't be so much the salvation since nothing is really going to change for judaism theologically speaking. He will bring about the engathering of the exiles, established a secured land for Israel, bring the return of the Temple and reign as the leader of the jewish people.

now once you leave judaism and get into the concept of the messiah in christian or other religious contexts, for me anyways, it gets a little more fuzzy

EnhancedSpirit · May 5, 2005

The word Messiah does not appear in the New Testament. Not one time. Hmmm?

Jayhawker Soule · May 5, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
If you want to debate the english-hebrew translations, you must understand that the hebrew language is very precise. whereas English one word can have completely different meanings. ...

And you learned this where?

1) The sheer span of time between the earliest stages of the Old Testament (c. 1,000 BC) and the modern world makes it difficult to understand the meaning of some terms. We simply do not know all the ranges of meaning of some terms, or the nuances of meaning they could take in different contexts. For example, the meaning of the word selah, often used in Psalms, has been totally lost even in Jewish tradition.

2) The historical and cultural contexts in which languages function are radically different between the biblical world and our own. Some terms, especially metaphorical ones, depend on a certain background of experience to communicate the meaning adequately. For example, the often-used metaphor of water as an object of conquest is nearly incomprehensible without understanding the role of water as a symbol of chaos and disorder in the ancient world (see Baal Worship in the Old Testament).

3) Closely related to this is the understanding that single words often function in a particular literary context that establishes a semantic field in which the term takes on a specialized meaning. Also, some authors may use a common word in a more specialized sense. This simply suggests that in some literary contexts a particular word may have a different range of meaning than in other contexts. For example, the idea of serve is conceptualized differently in priestly sections of the Old Testament than it is in the prophetic literature. And even within the book of Isaiah, the term servant takes on three different ranges of meaning in the three major sections of the book.

4) Words in most languages tend to have wide ranges of meaning depending on how they are used. While English tends to aim for precision in communication, Hebrew, as an Eastern language, depends far more on context and rhetorical shaping, as well as cultural and historical frames of reference, to carry the meaning of words. Many Hebrew words have much wider possibilities for meaning and carry a built-in ambiguity that may invoke several levels of meaning at once. For example, the term ruach (spirit, breath, wind, movement) is often used with interplay of the various meanings, as in Ezekiels vision of the Valley of Dry Bones (Ezek 37). [emphasis added - Deut. 32.8]

- see Word Meanings for Old Testament Theology and Study

Debate typically works best when people verify their claims rather than making up self-serving facts on the fly.

anami · May 5, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
We have to look at the text in the language that was written and we have to use the definitions that the writers used to express what they were saying.

The word Messiah is only found 2 times in the KJV (Da. 9:25,26) and is translated from the hebrew word Mashiyach: anointed, anointed one; a)of the Messiah, Messianic prince; b)of the king of Israel; c)of the high priest of Israel; d)of Cyrus; d)of the patriarchs as anointed kings.

So like i said, it could be Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah.
person carrying a message.

jewscout · May 5, 2005

anami said:
So like i said, it could be Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah.
person carrying a message.

I think i should ask what message is the messiah supposed to carry?

anami · May 5, 2005

jewscout said:
I think i should ask what message is the messiah supposed to carry?

The Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah, wouls be a message universal to all, adaptable into any language or perameter of understanding, and the message will be that which saves the world. A message that brings people to a new level of understanding that brings this dark world into a new light.

EnhancedSpirit · May 5, 2005

jewscout said:
I think i should ask what message is the messiah supposed to carry?

I already answered that LOVE Love love. Love of God, Love of your neighbor, love of you enemies.

EnhancedSpirit · May 6, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
And you learned this where?

Debate typically works best when people verify their claims rather than making up self-serving facts on the fly.

Excuse me, but I learned this from the Rabbi who taught me how to study the bible in it's original language. Maybe what I said has been misunderstood. I know the Hebrew language does not include as many concepts has our modern language. But that is only because we have labeled a lot more things since then. They were simple people with a simple language. But the words they did have were specific. And example is the fact that there is a distinction between Adonai, Ywhw, and Elohim. Each of these has a specific meaning pertaining to the context, but are all God. We confused a lot by throwing the word God in all over the place. And look what we have done to the definition of the word love. We use this word to describe dozens of different feelings. But the Hebrew language has a different word for 'general love' and AGAPE.

These are examples I am pulling out of my brain files from a long time ago.

anami · May 6, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
Excuse me, but I learned this from the Rabbi who taught me how to study the bible in it's original language. Maybe what I said has been misunderstood. I know the Hebrew language does not include as many concepts has our modern language. But that is only because we have labeled a lot more things since then. They were simple people with a simple language. But the words they did have were specific. And example is the fact that there is a distinction between Adonai, Ywhw, and Elohim. Each of these has a specific meaning pertaining to the context, but are all God. We confused a lot by throwing the word God in all over the place. And look what we have done to the definition of the word love. We use this word to describe dozens of different feelings. But the Hebrew language has a different word for 'general love' and AGAPE.

These are examples I am pulling out of my brain files from a long time ago.

My conversations with Jewish scholars support this.

jewscout · May 6, 2005

anami said:
The Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah, wouls be a message universal to all, adaptable into any language or perameter of understanding, and the message will be that which saves the world. A message that brings people to a new level of understanding that brings this dark world into a new light.

role of the Moshiach in Judaism...

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16) The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#What

that's sort of it in a nut shell w/o really getting into the heavy "What if's" of the messiahnic era

again tho this is a jewish perspective...christianity'sinterpretation of the "messiah" is a bit different...

EnhancedSpirit said:
I already answered that LOVE Love love. Love of God, Love of your neighbor, love of you enemies.

sounds jewish

Shabbat 31a said:
It happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the etire Torah while I am standing on one foot." Shammai drove him away with the builders measuring stick that was in his hand. Then he came before Hillel who converted him. Hillel said to him, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary - go and learn it."

anami · May 6, 2005

Originally Posted by anami

The Mashiyach - annointed one of the messiah, wouls be a message universal to all, adaptable into any language or perameter of understanding, and the message will be that which saves the world. A message that brings people to a new level of understanding that brings this dark world into a new light.

jewscout
role of the Moshiach in Judaism...

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16) The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Click to expand...

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#What

that's sort of it in a nut shell w/o really getting into the heavy "What if's" of the messiahnic era

again tho this is a jewish perspective...christianity'sinterpretation of the "messiah" is a bit different...

Precicely -
Given that first option of definition, you just reaffirmed that the messiah is the message carried by the annointed one.

Originally Posted by Shabbat 31a

It happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the etire Torah while I am standing on one foot." Shammai drove him away with the builders measuring stick that was in his hand. Then he came before Hillel who converted him. Hillel said to him, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary - go and learn it."

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary - go and learn it."

Messiah: Man or Idea?

Religious Zionist

Member

More Human Than Human

Religious Zionist

Member

Member

High Priestess

High Priestess

Member

Religious Zionist

High Priestess

-- untitled --

Member

Religious Zionist

Member

High Priestess

High Priestess

Member

Religious Zionist

Member