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Is there an "original sin"?

non-duality

non-duality

Member
The large churches have fortunately dissociated themselves from this dogma nowadays. It's still been taught in many fundamental Christian communities. Are we guilty just by the fact that we are born? All of us know the feeling when we made a mistake and the fear to be punished for this from our childhood. We surely also know when children competing: "If you do something for me, then I don't say what you have done". By feelings of guilt people get steer able. I think that the thought: "we are bad from the ground of our being" is also created by this dogma.

What would you say?
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S

Seconde

Member
Hi ND,

I agree. The concept of the original sin defies that of a just God. If a baby dies just after being born, it is a sinner and had no time to love, accept and follow Jesus. That sounds very unfair.

2nde
 
EnhancedSpirit

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
I was baptised as a southern Baptist when I was 7, but my Grandfather chastised me and my mother saying that I was too young to know what Baptism was. My family later became Catholic, then I was really confused, because if I was too young to understand at 7, how is a newborn to know what baptism is? I still do not understand the concept of saying a child is born with sin. I feel children are far closer to God than any of us 'grown ups'.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
I was baptised as a southern Baptist when I was 7, but my Grandfather chastised me and my mother saying that I was too young to know what Baptism was. My family later became Catholic, then I was really confused, because if I was too young to understand at 7, how is a newborn to know what baptism is? I still do not understand the concept of saying a child is born with sin. I feel children are far closer to God than any of us 'grown ups'.
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Achild is born with sin because he is in a dieing state he will grow old and die that is what a baby is born with there is no getting away from it at this point in time .
That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned(romans 5; 12)







(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."




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(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death is through a man,(Adam) resurrection of the dead is also through a man(Jesus)

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(Psalm 51:5) Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me............so there we have it we all die no oneis born perfect we are all inperfectin a dieing state

 
Melody

Melody

Well-Known Member
In answer to the thread title, "Is there an 'original' sin?"....


Nope, not anymore....I'd bet they've all been done at least once. :D

As the great Tom Lehrer sang...

Get in line in that processional.
Step into that small confessional.
There the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.

If it is, try playin' it safer.
Drink the wine and chew the wafer.
2-4-6-8 time to transubstantiate.
 
EnhancedSpirit

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
may said:

That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned(romans 5; 12)
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Yeah, but it wasn't until Noah and the flood that God stopped letting people live for hundreds of years. And does this mean that all babies who die will not go to Heaven if they weren't baptized?
 
armageddon

armageddon

Member
Seconde said:
Hi ND,

I agree. The concept of the original sin defies that of a just God. If a baby dies just after being born, it is a sinner and had no time to love, accept and follow Jesus. That sounds very unfair.

2nde
Click to expand...
i agree, although in a sense, the original sin also gives a reason for some people to have a god. some people believe that (the) god(s) are here to cleanse them from their sin so their next life will be clean, and with the original sin, they have one more reason to have a god. strange as it is, i know of some people who actually beliveve this.
 
Melody

Melody

Well-Known Member
One of the few lessons I remember from 8th grade catechism was that we were all born with original sin and if a baby dies before it's baptized, it will go to purgatory. I don't know if the RC still teach that or not though.

In my bible classes they teach that we are not born with sin on our soul, but that we can't get through life without sinning as it is part of human nature and why we need salvation in the form of Christ. Since we are not born with sin, if a baby dies, it's innocent soul will not go to hell because it hasn't sinned.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
where does it say in the bible ,which is Gods word after all,that a baby needs to be baptized?
 
EnhancedSpirit

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Melody said:
One of the few lessons I remember from 8th grade catechism was that we were all born with original sin and if a baby dies before it's baptized, it will go to purgatory. I don't know if the RC still teach that or not though.

In my bible classes they teach that we are not born with sin on our soul, but that we can't get through life without sinning as it is part of human nature and why we need salvation in the form of Christ. Since we are not born with sin, if a baby dies, it's innocent soul will not go to hell because it hasn't sinned.
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And both these Religions call themselves Christians. How can one Christian say that a baby will go to Purgatory while the other says a baby is innocent and will go to Heaven. This was soooo confusing to me. It's things like this that drove me away from the church and seeking the truth for myself. Because obviously these two 'truths' cannot exist together. I agree with May, what does the bible say about this?
 
S

Seconde

Member
armageddon said:
i agree, although in a sense, the original sin also gives a reason for some people to have a god. some people believe that (the) god(s) are here to cleanse them from their sin so their next life will be clean, and with the original sin, they have one more reason to have a god. strange as it is, i know of some people who actually beliveve this.
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The Jews came before Christianity and they didn't need the original sin.
 
Melody

Melody

Well-Known Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
And both these Religions call themselves Christians. How can one Christian say that a baby will go to Purgatory while the other says a baby is innocent and will go to Heaven. This was soooo confusing to me.
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ES,
There was a time when I would've said that Christian is not a religion but rather a term for those who believe in the salvation of Christ. I have no clue what it means anymore since I've heard several people claim to be Christians and they believe Jesus was nothing more than a great idea and role model for living a good life.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
You won't find the term "original sin" in the scriptures.

Babies are perfect. There is a point at which we sin all by ourselves.

Before Adam and Eve there was no spiritual death. Everyone and everything had a relationship with God. Then they messed up... and their connection with God had been severed. Since then every human has followed suit... and sinned.
 
K

kassi

Member
Seconde said:
Hi ND,

I agree. The concept of the original sin defies that of a just God. If a baby dies just after being born, it is a sinner and had no time to love, accept and follow Jesus. That sounds very unfair.

2nde
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You have to remember Christ died for all. From the least to the greatest.
All will be resurrected the just and the unjust. All will be judged according to the manner in which they have judged. Christ will not make one suffer for something they have not commited.
 
non-duality

non-duality

Member
kassi said:
...Christ will not make one suffer for something they have not commited.
Click to expand...

Hello Kassi!
Do you really think, Christ will make somebody suffer at all? He who said "forgive others and you will be forgiven" and "I also don't condemn you. Go an don't sin from now onwards." ?

I think God or Christ is greater than we can imagine. We shouldn’t measure the divine with our thinking of punishments. The bad ones punish themselves by their way of thinking and by their ignorance.
 
K

kassi

Member
non-duality said:
Hello Kassi!
Do you really think, Christ will make somebody suffer at all? He who said "forgive others and you will be forgiven" and "I also don't condemn you. Go an don't sin from now onwards." ?

I think God or Christ is greater than we can imagine. We shouldn’t measure the divine with our thinking of punishments. The bad ones punish themselves by their way of thinking and by their ignorance.
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If the Good and Just suffer, how much more the unbelievers and the unjust will suffer.
 
Stick of Joseph

Stick of Joseph

Member
Adam did not sin anymore than a chemist mixes two chemicals and comes out with another solution. I think that there is no such thing as original stain. We do not take on the sins of our fathers. I do not repent for transgressions my father made. When you say there is original sin you go against exactly what christ taught. Children are innocent and do not need to be baptised at birth. They of coarse need to be baptised, but not until at an age of accountability.
 
non-duality

non-duality

Member
kassi said:
If the Good and Just suffer, how much more the unbelievers and the unjust will suffer.
Click to expand...
O.K. take an other example: It also comes from Jesus.
The employer asked the people on the streets for help. He promised them to give them a fixed account of sallary. He went more times to the streets and again called helpers. Finally he gave all of them the same amount. Then the ones who worked longer got angry. “Why do they get the same amont than we who worked much longer?” He took one of them and told him: “I have done no injust to you. You got the amount I told you. So take it and go. Or are you chillous on them to whom I was mercyful?”

So why shouldn’t we be mercyful to them as well. Do the Good and Just reallly suffer if they help others out of love? They don’t expect an reward, their love is their revard. But if they did it at least for the revard in expectation of heaven, their deeds become already a bit shelfishly.
 
lilithu

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Yes, I believe in original sin. But I believe that original sin is causal not temporal. I do not believe in one sin that happened sometime in the recesses of history that has somehow tainted all of us. But I do believe that there is one mistake that we make that leads to all the other mistakes that we generally think of as sin. It causes the others and is therefore "original." To me, when we fail to see the interconnection between ourselves and the rest of creation, that is original sin.
 
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