-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How come Judas has such a bad reputation?
- Thread starter Ori
- Start date
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
I think you're confusing foreknowledge with pre-destination. Most Christians (Calvinists excepted) believe in free will and that God will not oppose our use of it. Just because Christ knew Judas was going to betray Him doesn't mean that Judas didn't do so willfully. Christ (being God) allowed Judas to betray Him but didn't force Him to, so the fault rests entirely with Judas.
James
James
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
That depends entirely on your soteriology. As an Orthodox Christian (as in a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church) mine is not entirely dependent on the Crucifixion, but rather on the entire Incarnation. Only in western churches do you get the emphasis on the Crucifixion alone as the means of our salvation. For us, Christ need not have been betrayed by Judas and would still have succeeded in saving us - the Resurrection is more important than the Crucifixion.orichalcum said:
As we shall say on Sunday in the Paschal (Easter) Liturgy. 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and on those in the tombs bestowing life!' Even if Christ had died in some other manner He could have achieved this, though I concede that as He didn't the point is moot.
James
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
I would have phrased orichalcum's phrase using 'could' rather than 'would', but yes. Your idea of Christ being the sacrifice for our sins was exactly what I was talking about when I spoke of western soteriology being different to eastern. We see Christ's sacrifice as being self-sacrifice. As He was Immortal by nature, dying in any way at all would be self-sacrifice, so the manner of His death is not necessary to it's sacrificial nature - at least not in my opinion. We do not believe that God sacrificed Christ as the only suitable substitute for mankind's punishment. That juridical, western concept is pretty repugnant to us. Note that self-sacrifice need not be to something/someone, only for somebody - in this case for all mankind.Melody said:
To explain, we don't believe in the Augustinian idea of original sin - nobody is born guilty. God is the source of all life. When Adam sinned, he turned from God, becoming mortal as a natural consequence of severing communion with Him (not as a punishment). All mankind inherited this mortality but by Christ's Incarnation, Death and Resurrection we were restored to the proper communion with God, human nature was re-divinised and death was conquered. The Crucifixion was part of all this, but was it necessary? Logically, no. Christ's death, in any manner, and subsequent resurrection would have achieved the same. As I said before, though, the point is moot. Christ knew that He would be Crucified and Incarnated anyway, though He could presumably have come at another time. I can only assume that He knew that what He did was the best way to achieve His goals but I couldn't argue that it was the only way, nor presume to answer why it was the best.
In any case, the upshot for Judas is that he is undoubtedly guilty of betraying Christ. After all, if I knew that giving myself up to a murderer would result in my death but save others and I willingly did so, would that make the murderer any less responsible for my death? I doubt that anyone would argue from this that he was somehow innocent of murder. What's the difference? Everyone must take responsibility for their own actions.
James
robtex
Veteran Member
p1 Jesus is predestined for death and Judas is part of the plan by announcing JesusIacobPersul said:
p2 Judas acts on his own freewill enabling the plan by revealing Jesus
p3 Judas acted in accordance with biblical phrophecy thus obeying Gods desires
p4 Judas actions help led to the demise of Jesus
p5 God condems Judas for his actions.
c1 therefore God set-up Judas to fail by including him in the predistionation and than condenming him for it.
To qoute Gene Roddenberry , " We must question the story of logic, of having an all-knowing all-powerful God who creates faulty humans, and than blames them for his own mistakes."
source: http://www.atheistempire.com/greatminds/gmtext.html
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Not that I buy into the necessity of his crucifixion, but:
"If it is your will let this cup pass from me."
Don't underestimate the importance of "If it is your will." Sounds to me like he knows this is part of the plan but is hoping for a possible change in plans.
and
Father, father, why have you forsaken me?"
That may not have refered to his death; he may have felt forsaken even if he knew he was doing what was necessary. Not saying that you are wrong - I am no fan of substitutionary atonement myself - but there's plenty of room for wiggle either way here.
"If it is your will let this cup pass from me."
Don't underestimate the importance of "If it is your will." Sounds to me like he knows this is part of the plan but is hoping for a possible change in plans.
and
Father, father, why have you forsaken me?"
That may not have refered to his death; he may have felt forsaken even if he knew he was doing what was necessary. Not saying that you are wrong - I am no fan of substitutionary atonement myself - but there's plenty of room for wiggle either way here.
I think Judas was playing his part (if one buys the story at all). I've always wondered if he really was a bad guy.linwood said:
linwood
Well-Known Member
Not that I buy into the necessity of his crucifixion, but:
"If it is your will let this cup pass from me."
Don't underestimate the importance of "If it is your will." Sounds to me like he knows this is part of the plan but is hoping for a possible change in plans.
Point taken.
and
Father, father, why have you forsaken me?"
That may not have refered to his death; he may have felt forsaken even if he knew he was doing what was necessary. Not saying that you are wrong - I am no fan of substitutionary atonement myself - but there's plenty of room for wiggle either way here.
Another point taken, I just wanted to point out that "wiggle room"
I think Judas was playing his part (if one buys the story at all). I've always wondered if he really was a bad guy.
I don`t think he was, when the realisation of what he actually did hit him he was most definately distressed regardless of which version of his demise you`re reading.
I think he was just another selfish human not really thinking straight until it was too late.
"If it is your will let this cup pass from me."
Don't underestimate the importance of "If it is your will." Sounds to me like he knows this is part of the plan but is hoping for a possible change in plans.
Point taken.
and
Father, father, why have you forsaken me?"
That may not have refered to his death; he may have felt forsaken even if he knew he was doing what was necessary. Not saying that you are wrong - I am no fan of substitutionary atonement myself - but there's plenty of room for wiggle either way here.
Another point taken, I just wanted to point out that "wiggle room"
I think Judas was playing his part (if one buys the story at all). I've always wondered if he really was a bad guy.
I don`t think he was, when the realisation of what he actually did hit him he was most definately distressed regardless of which version of his demise you`re reading.
I think he was just another selfish human not really thinking straight until it was too late.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Psalm 22Khale said:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
If one reads the rest of the Psalm, it is clearly a cry of pain, but ultimately of submission to and trust in the will of God.
Thanks Khale!
robtex
Veteran Member
Sorry I took a long time to get back to you. Judas is revealed to all as the traitor in John chapter 18.lilithu said:
In Acts 1:18 I qoute from Biblegateway.com NIV version: " With the reward he got for his wickedness Judas bought a field. There he fell headlong his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
He is replaced in Acts 1:23-26 by Matthias. The 11 apostles in an effort to draw from divine wisdom pray to God for the wisdom to choose the 12 man amoung them.
What I gathered from this is that ones body does not burst open naturally from falling from a standing position to flat ground. Those words imply divine intervention.
source biblegateway.com NIV version.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
All four gospels call Judas a traitor. I am more interested in whether God actually condemned Judas.robtex said:
Interesting! If you go back a little further in the text it says:robtex said:
Acts 1:15 In those days, Peter stood up among the believers and said, "Friends, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold concerning Judas....
So Peter tells the other 10 disciples that Judas bought a field with the money and then his intestines spilled open.
However, in Matthew 27:3-8 it says: Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Is Peter lying or making things up? Is the writer of Acts lying or making things up? Or is the writer of Matthew? Given no way to really tell the difference, I personally will defer to the "firsthand" accounts related in the Gospels over the "secondhand" accounts in any other part of the New Testament. So I believe that Judas hung himself out of repentance. And I don't know whether God condemned him or not. But I like to think not. I like to think that the idea that God condemned Judas is just a human's limited sense of justice (eye for an eye), and not reflective of God's mercy which Jesus himself taught (turn and offer the other cheek, the prodigal son).
But thanks for the references, Robtex.
I was unaware of that passage, since I don't continually read much of the NT other than the gospels.