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Abortion and the God of the Bible
- Thread starter Pah
- Start date
#pah said:
Pah, as you and I both know, we could argue this until the end of time. Marie lost a fetus within -say- two weeks of conception- I regard that fetus as one of our children, who "didn't quite make it"-whatever the reason, as far as I am concerned, God knew best. That is the way I can cope with the event - and if is illogical and emotional, bereft of logic, then so be it - that is our (mine and Marie's) saving grace.
Pah
Uber all member
I can understand your emotion and empathize but I have asked, by posting the article, if there is a biblical basis for it.michel said:#
Pah, as you and I both know, we could argue this until the end of time. Marie lost a fetus within -say- two weeks of conception- I regard that fetus as one of our children, who "didn't quite make it"-whatever the reason, as far as I am concerned, God knew best. That is the way I can cope with the event - and if is illogical and emotional, bereft of logic, then so be it - that is our (mine and Marie's) saving grace.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
No.... but also remember that I consider the history of the Church (Tradition)as equally important to discerning the moral "question" of abortion.... and even the Early Church Fathers tought against abortion.pah said:
This quote from Catholic Answers may (I hope) shed some light on the article.
As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:2224).
This applies the lex talionis or "law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, compared to the much greater retributions that had been common before, such as life for eye, life for tooth, lives of the offenders family for one life).
The lex talionis would already have been applied to a woman who was injured in a fight. The distinguishing point in this passage is that a pregnant woman is hurt "so that her child comes out"; the child is the focus of the lex talionis in this passage. Aborted babies must have justice, too.
This is because they, like older children, have souls, even though marred by original sin. David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5, NIV). Since sinfulness is a spiritual rather than a physical condition, David must have had a spiritual nature from the time of conception.
The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the childs body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the childs body must already have its spirit.
www.catholic.com
Pah
Uber all member
Scott,
Tertullian seemed to have found a basis in scripture and it is that basis that is being questioned. In fact, Till, in his article, quotes the same scripture and shows that, contrary to Tertullian's interpretation, causing a miscarrage was not punished severely. A fine was imposed, as you point out, not the law or retribution. An eye for eye would have required the life of the assailant - it did not if the fetus was not fully formed. Till gives reference to the Septuagint. Till further explains Nunbers 5:11-31. The article is quite persausive in its totality.
The history of the Early Church shows various "penalties and non-penalities. While you are correct in basing the soul as the important factor, it was for centuries that the idea that the soul was not present in the fetus until after the "body" of the fetus was whole. ReligiousTolerance.org has an article that details the history that extended well into the 17th century where abortion was not consider a serious sin.
It, the Religious Tolerance article, speaks of delayed ensoulment as a tenet from St. Augustine. and "quickening" from Pope Innocent III. St. Thomas Aquinas agreed with the Pope. However,
My source for the history is http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm
Tertullian seemed to have found a basis in scripture and it is that basis that is being questioned. In fact, Till, in his article, quotes the same scripture and shows that, contrary to Tertullian's interpretation, causing a miscarrage was not punished severely. A fine was imposed, as you point out, not the law or retribution. An eye for eye would have required the life of the assailant - it did not if the fetus was not fully formed. Till gives reference to the Septuagint. Till further explains Nunbers 5:11-31. The article is quite persausive in its totality.
The history of the Early Church shows various "penalties and non-penalities. While you are correct in basing the soul as the important factor, it was for centuries that the idea that the soul was not present in the fetus until after the "body" of the fetus was whole. ReligiousTolerance.org has an article that details the history that extended well into the 17th century where abortion was not consider a serious sin.
It, the Religious Tolerance article, speaks of delayed ensoulment as a tenet from St. Augustine. and "quickening" from Pope Innocent III. St. Thomas Aquinas agreed with the Pope. However,
and it was not until the 17th century that "simultaneous animation" reversed the concept of "quickening"
My source for the history is http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm
Melody
Well-Known Member
I found a few sites that deal with this particular passage. Thought you'd find them interesting.
Exodus 21:22-25 Translations and Mistranslations
Aborted Exegesis
Exodus 21:22-25 Translations and Mistranslations
Aborted Exegesis
Good clarification. See, also ...Melody said:
Pah
Uber all member
Melody said:
.So it depends on whether it is a premature live birth. Forgive me, it sounds like the revised "kill" to "murder" in the commandments. Awfully convienient wouldn't you say.
Oh no, not another Turkel/Holding apology. You must have noticed the style of "prove your point by ridicule". But, be that as it may, here he is calling St Augistine and Pope Inocent III wrong. He aslo puts forth the argument that accidental death was not punished contrary to what Till, Turkels arch enemy, by the way, says happens in Deut. 4:41-43; Deut. 19:10. Sorry Melody, this one is a loser all around.
But let me continue with the "convienent translation" - what injury is being afforded the fine. The one to the woman or the arrested developemnt of a fetus. If the fetus is not viable, the injury is prettry sever to the fetus and the woman continues to have recieved an injury. As was said in some movie - "follow the money" It is just this disregard for the stage of gestration that makes the new translation "convienent". It should also be noted that in trying to make over the verse in today's English that an abortion is also the term for a live birth - an expelling from the womb.
fromthe heart
Well-Known Member
I can only go on feeling that my God would not place a life to grow unless it was for a purpose in God's eyes and man or woman should not play God by taking that life.
A heartbeat can be found within a matter of a couple of weeks in a fetus...most of the time when a woman finds out she's really pregnant the heartbeat is active and well able to be seen on ultrasound. I think once there is a heartbeat there is a life. Just MPO
A heartbeat can be found within a matter of a couple of weeks in a fetus...most of the time when a woman finds out she's really pregnant the heartbeat is active and well able to be seen on ultrasound. I think once there is a heartbeat there is a life. Just MPO
To further muddy the waters, translations of both Targum Pseudo-Jonathan and Targum Onkelos refer to "miscarriage" while the Brenton translation of the Septuagint reads "and her child be born imperfectly formed".pah said:
true blood
Active Member
Biblically, life doesn't begin until the first draw of breath.
true blood
Active Member
A reasonable concept.pah said:
My understanding of the hitting a woman thing is clearly that there is a miscarriage. But anyway you interpret it, it is so obvious that the woman is without any rights; the husband is compensated monetarily for the loss of his property.
Do we discuss God's command in Numbers 5 to perform an abortion cum sterilization here or in other threads?
Do we discuss God's command in Numbers 5 to perform an abortion cum sterilization here or in other threads?
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
This is a tough one. In the past, when a woman did not want to bear a child, she knew what herbs to eat to terminate the pregnancy. That I believe is leaving things in God's hands. Biblically it might be that life does not begin until the first breath, but we now know that the fetus can hear what goes on outside of it's mother, and I've seen pictures of fetus' even sucking their thumbs. I've even seen babies that survived who were born 5 months premature.
