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I have finally figured it out, it is all about economic justice, not the economy!

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
"GOOD IDEA! But as a big, bad capitalist pig I was really hoping to take advantage of your financial situation and get that tortilla maker for cents on the dollar."

You meant that to be sarcastic. And funny.

I don't think you realize for many of us is the pure and honest truth.:yes: The system does EXACTLY that. Exploit those at a disadvantage to the benefit of those with $.

My nabors had garage sale yesterday. They were selling things to raise $ for a car repair. They sold things for pennies on the $ to people who had more $ than they could find a use for. Things the owners would much rather have kept.

And the buyers left with their booty less pleased with what they bought than by the fact that they paid so little.:(

The SYSTEM encourages, nay REQUIRES this behavior. It is both wrong and anti-human. It does exactly what Marx said it did. Reduces men to numbers on a spreadsheet; robbed of all decency all worth all humanity by the drive for more and yet more.

It is a system based on devaluing humanity and rewarding the basest and most primitive of instincts. It is Hobbes writ large. And those who claim religion as justification only confirm the truth of the Russian folk saying:

Winter has a belly on him like a priest.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Maybe to be able to afford what he has now - who has the right to take what he has earned away from him now? Who has the right to judge whether or not he's worked hard enough to keep what he's got?

Who's saying he shouldn't keep what he's got?

You know what - we all miss the boat when we don't try to put ourselves in the other person's shoes. Maybe people should try to imagine what it would feel like to have people resent what you've worked for all your life.

No one resents you or others for making a lot of money. People resent those who make a lot of many when they complain that they don't make enough or that they need everything they make.
 
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Zephyr

Moved on
"GOOD IDEA! But as a big, bad capitalist pig I was really hoping to take advantage of your financial situation and get that tortilla maker for cents on the dollar."

You meant that to be sarcastic. And funny.

I don't think you realize for many of us is the pure and honest truth.:yes: The system does EXACTLY that. Exploit those at a disadvantage to the benefit of those with $.

My nabors had garage sale yesterday. They were selling things to raise $ for a car repair. They sold things for pennies on the $ to people who had more $ than they could find a use for. Things the owners would much rather have kept.

And the buyers left with their booty less pleased with what they bought than by the fact that they paid so little.:(

The SYSTEM encourages, nay REQUIRES this behavior. It is both wrong and anti-human. It does exactly what Marx said it did. Reduces men to numbers on a spreadsheet; robbed of all decency all worth all humanity by the drive for more and yet more.

It is a system based on devaluing humanity and rewarding the basest and most primitive of instincts. It is Hobbes writ large. And those who claim religion as justification only confirm the truth of the Russian folk saying:

Winter has a belly on him like a priest.
Truth ITT.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Who's saying he shouldn't keep what he's got?



No one resents you or others for making a lot of money. People resent those who make a lot of many when they complain that they don't make enough or that they need everything they make.


I would suspect that most of us writing on our computers in this forum have much more that we actually NEED to survive.

My issue is with those who think THEY should set the parameters. What gives them the right? And will they apply the same judgmental, self-righteous standards to themselves? That's usually not the case.

By the way, just for the record, I don't make a lot of money. I make about $35,000 a year. I could and DID make more, but I made some changes so that I could get out of the 70 hour work week, traffic jams, and hectic lifestyle of a high powered career. Now I work a non-management job limited strictly to 40 hours a week and I love it.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
"GOOD IDEA! But as a big, bad capitalist pig I was really hoping to take advantage of your financial situation and get that tortilla maker for cents on the dollar."

You meant that to be sarcastic. And funny.



I meant it to be succinct and to the point.




My nabors had garage sale yesterday. They were selling things to raise $ for a car repair. They sold things for pennies on the $ to people who had more $ than they could find a use for. Things the owners would much rather have kept.

And the buyers left with their booty less pleased with what they bought than by the fact that they paid so little.:(

Been there, done that. I had to have a garage sale one time in order to be able to buy school supplies for my kids. Heck, one year my coworkers actually took up a collection to help me buy school supplies (that was pretty humbling).

Having that garage sale didn't hurt anything but my pride. In fact, living on the edge like that gave me to fortitude to make significant changes in my life and get OUT of that precarious situation as quickly as possible.

Being poor definitely built some good character in me and strengthened me.

The SYSTEM encourages, nay REQUIRES this behavior. It is both wrong and anti-human. It does exactly what Marx said it did.


Oh, Marx - why does your reference to him not surprise me?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
All of these tax increases will penalise success.
Phrases like this get me going more than anything. If the super rich would just start admiting that us poor people can, and do, work very hard, sometimes with 2 or 3 or more jobs, or 50, 70, 80 or more hours a week, and are still only one injury away from homelessness, or are still struggling to put food on the table. And at the same time, money does not always equal success. An example, the million dollar bonuses that the AIG executives were handed, how was this money earned through hard work or success? Just that one bonus would be more than enough to allow several families to live comfortable without working another day in there lives.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I would suspect that most of us writing on our computers in this forum have much more that we actually NEED to survive.

Yes, that's true, but it's one thing when someone has an apartment, a ten-year-old car and the usual Gas and Electric, TV, phone and internet, and no real savings, and another thing entirely when that person has a large house in a very nice neighborhood, two new cars, a good retirement fund, etc.

My issue is with those who think THEY should set the parameters. What gives them the right? And will they apply the same judgmental, self-righteous standards to themselves? That's usually not the case.

It's not that hard. You add up normal bills, then account for extras, and add a bit more for some cushion. If you make above that, it's considered rich. As I pointed out for $250,000, it's all of the normal bills, along with extras like retirement and stuff, and then a bit of cushion and you still have a good bit left over.

We have the right because it's easy to do finances and see what's necessary and what's excess. And just to be clear, none of this is advocating making everyone's pay the same or even close. People who make $50,000 a year would still make $35,000ish after taxes, and those who make $250,000 would still make $130,000ish.

Also, there's nothing self-righteous or judgemental about it. It's simply seeing that some people need help, and that others can provide it. If I can provide it, I will. And yes, I do apply it to myself. If I ever have the good fortune to make $250,000 (assuming inflation hasn't made that number obsolete), I will gladly give 45-50% of it because I understand how things work.

By the way, just for the record, I don't make a lot of money. I make about $35,000 a year. I could and DID make more, but I made some changes so that I could get out of the 70 hour work week, traffic jams, and hectic lifestyle of a high powered career. Now I work a non-management job limited strictly to 40 hours a week and I love it.

Then, does your husband make all of the money, or were you able to save up enough while doing that 70-hour work week that you can half live off of savings?

It's not just about what you're making now. It's also about how much you have.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I would suspect that most of us writing on our computers in this forum have much more that we actually NEED to survive.
Yes, that's true, but it's one thing when someone has an apartment, a ten-year-old car and the usual Gas and Electric, TV, phone and internet, and no real savings, and another thing entirely when that person has a large house in a very nice neighborhood, two new cars, a good retirement fund, etc.
And it's also one thing to have more than you need and recognize one's good fortune, versus having more than one needs and claiming that it all came from hard work and that people who point out that one has more than one needs are just envious and resentful.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
How about folks who pretend they could have much more but choose not to? Is there any dishonesty there?

I have left off one very important item in my budget on purpose. That item would be charity. It is very important to me to make enough money to help those folks much less fortunate than me who are down on their luck through no fault of their own. I try to not mention this too often because I don't give of my time and money for the glory here on earth.

There are many folks who depend on my help and I try my best not to let them down. Another thing I do is plant trees. It is good exercise digging holes and relieves stress as well, even though it hurts my back every spring.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
How about folks who pretend they could have much more but choose not to? Is there any dishonesty there?
Oh, and who would that be, Rick?



I have left off one very important item in my budget on purpose. That item would be charity. It is very important to me to make enough money to help those folks much less fortunate than me who are down on their luck through no fault of their own.
Why not work to make it so they don't need your charity?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
America is turning into a nation of whiners led by the rich whining they're being taxed.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
How about folks who pretend they could have much more but choose not to? Is there any dishonesty there?

Huh?

I have left off one very important item in my budget on purpose. That item would be charity. It is very important to me to make enough money to help those folks much less fortunate than me who are down on their luck through no fault of their own. I try to not mention this too often because I don't give of my time and money for the glory here on earth.

Yeah, giving extra taxes so that people can have free healthcare, and so that poor people can have more resources is definitely not a form of charity. :rolleyes:

There are many folks who depend on my help and I try my best not to let them down. Another thing I do is plant trees. It is good exercise digging holes and relieves stress as well, even though it hurts my back every spring.

Was there a point to this other than to toot your own horn?

Lilithu said:
And it's also one thing to have more than you need and recognize one's good fortune, versus having more than one needs and claiming that it all came from hard work and that people who point out that one has more than one needs are just envious and resentful.

Yes, that too. Thanks.
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
I thought it was all about the economy. Boy am I wrong. How on earth are we going to help the less fortunate without the evil rich capitalising on everything?

Is it possible to raise tiny boats without the bigger boats rising as well?

Is class warfare really more important than getting everyone back on track?

Do most of you really believe that 250,000 a year is big money in light of the fact small business is the engine that drives the economy and creates jobs?

Lets take GM as an example. Here is a company that has earned the nick name generous motors. Can anyone see that this company cannot spend so much on the employees? They have priced their cars and trucks so high, most folks cannot afford them. Is it any wonder they are in trouble?

All of this bailout money is rewarding failure. All of these tax increases will penalise success. How are we going to put everyone back to work with these core values?

If people really believe that trickle down economics do not work, why are we giving all this money to big corporations?

I loved it when a reporter brought up to Obama the fact that higher taxes = lower revenue and he simply replied, "It's about being fair.".
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I loved it when a reporter brought up to Obama the fact that higher taxes = lower revenue and he simply replied, "It's about being fair.".
They want you to pay more taxes so their favorite charities can be funded instead of your first choices. I like the way they will not let you claim the additional taxes too.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Yes, that's true, but it's one thing when someone has an apartment, a ten-year-old car and the usual Gas and Electric, TV, phone and internet, and no real savings, and another thing entirely when that person has a large house in a very nice neighborhood, two new cars, a good retirement fund, etc.

So under your plan - what will happen to these "very nice neighborhoods?" After you redistribute wealth, and people can't afford to live in these neighborhoods - what happens? Do these homes get split up into apartments and rented out? Who owns them now - the government? And how did the government acquire these homes - did they confiscate them? Buy them back from the owners? If so, did the owners make a profit and then get forced to give 50% of it back to the government? I mean, what's your practical application?


We have the right because it's easy to do finances and see what's necessary and what's excess. And just to be clear, none of this is advocating making everyone's pay the same or even close. People who make $50,000 a year would still make $35,000ish after taxes, and those who make $250,000 would still make $130,000ish.

OK so (under your plan) now I don't make $250,000 - I make $130,000. Problem with that is, suddenly that demanding job that paid $250,000 isn't so appealing. (Because I have news for you - most high paying jobs require education, experience, and just plain hard work.) Why should I bust my butt, rack up student loans, work 16 hour days for 20 years to be able to move into that position, etc? Why should I work harder than anyone else? Just to give it to someone else - someone I don't even know? Human nature isn't that generous.

Instead, I think I'll just scale way on back. I think I'll become under-employed and make my life and my family's life a little easier. Why not? It doesn't do me any good to work harder, and it's detrimental to my family.

So - now, who are the doctors, the researchers, the CEOs, the investors, the inventers? Who donates the land to the hospital to add a center to research a cure for cancer? Who puts up the capital for a developer who wants to build affordable homes? Who pays the bulk of the taxes to finance this grand plan of equalization when the top tax payers realize that their demanding jobs aren't getting them anywhere and they quit?

Also, there's nothing self-righteous or judgemental about it. It's simply seeing that some people need help, and that others can provide it. If I can provide it, I will. And yes, I do apply it to myself. If I ever have the good fortune to make $250,000 (assuming inflation hasn't made that number obsolete), I will gladly give 45-50% of it because I understand how things work.

But WHY work to achieve that goal? Listen, I found myself in this very situation. I was working my butt off, making about $70,000 a year. This bumped us up into a higher tax bracket. We sat down one night and figured something out. I was getting in late, never cooking dinner, both of us gaining weight because we were grabbing fast food at 8 or 9 pm, we didn't have quality time together because we were both working so hard, we were both working at least ten additional hours on the weekends, I was getting up at 5 am to put in two hours of work BEFORE I went to work, my job demanded a nice wardrobe (which was expensive), wear and tear on my vehicle, and by the time I paid my taxes, deducted for the depreciation of my vehicle and other expenses, was it worth it? NO. So I quit. I took a job that is not as demanding, that pays about $30,000 less a year. Now - this made a definite impact on our life, but it's been worth it. Now - no big vacations, no nice new wardrobe, gotta keep my car for probably ten years now instead of five or six, very little eating out - oh and did I leave out - NOW I'm not saving for retirement, now I won't be able to contribute to our son's college fund, now I'm not pumping as much into the economy either either - and I'm not paying as much in taxes -which under your plan would support more social programs.

We're also selling our place (17 acres and a big house) because we can't afford to keep it (we knew this would be one of the prices we paid when I resigned from my other job). We'll buy something more modest - which means we'll be SPENDING LESS MONEY and paying less in taxes. Less money pumped into our local economy. Now - multiply that by hundreds of thousands of families just like ours. Where is your tax base going to come from?

And who's going to buy our place? Some other poor suckers who are willing to continue to bust their butts and be penalized for it? Heck, we'll be lucky to be able to sell it.

Now we made all these changes based just on a 28% tax bracket. And we're not alone - imagine what impact this sort of thing would be nationwide - and involving the many, many people who make more money than my husband and I do.

Then, does your husband make all of the money, or were you able to save up enough while doing that 70-hour work week that you can half live off of savings?


My husband makes several times more than I do - now. But he's 51 years old, and has worked like a dog in the oilfield since he was 20 years old. You know those guys on that show about extreme jobs - the guys working out on the rigs? The extremely dirty, sweaty guys with one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet? That was my husband for 20 years- working in Africa, under constant threat of being kidnapped from a rig, shot at, stranded in third world airports - living and traveling in very poor conditions, working a job with an injury rate you just wouldn't believe.

You know why those guys are willing to work like that? Because they get paid well. Because they have dreams for their families - dreams of 17 acres and a nice house - things they never had before. You think those guys would be willing to work in that industry if they knew they wouldn't be able to achieve those goals?


Furthermore, do you really, for a minute, think that the Ted Kennedys, the Obamas, the Bushes, the Gores, are willing to give up THEIR perks "for the people?"


It's not just about what you're making now. It's also about how much you have.

Wow - visions of Eastern Europe are dancing in my head now. Everyone equally miserable, equally uninspired, equally frustrated.

What a lofty goal!
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
I spend less than £500 a month on living costs. To be able to spend 10 times that is crazy, where does all that money go?
 

Zephyr

Moved on
I love how everybody seems to associate anything resembling socialism with the horribly corrupt USSR, rather than the more modern and successful Scandinavian countries. What? Afraid of an example that could shake away all your reasons to fear taxes?
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The all Obama is trying to do is stop giving the rich a free ride on the backs of the poor. We should all remember what one Great teacher said about the rich.

Jesus said

Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:24-34 (New International Version)


This is what Warren E. Buffett believes about the Tax system we have changed .

Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.

Buffett said that was despite the fact that he was not trying to avoid paying higher taxes. "I don't have a tax shelter," he said. And he challenged Congress and his audience to see what the people who "clean our offices" are taxed, to loud applause.

Buffett Slams Tax System Disparities - washingtonpost.com

The facts are the the rich pay less % Tax then the the average American. How is that fair. Why do conservatives want to keep a Tax system that is top loaded in favor of the rich I just can’t understand how this is ethical in any way.


I have no personal problems with the rich ( some of my best friends are rich ) I might even give my child my blessing if they chose to marry on of those capitalists. lol I just believe they should pull there own weight.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I love how everybody seems to associate anything resembling socialism with the horribly corrupt USSR, rather than the more modern and successful Scandinavian countries. What? Afraid of an example that could shake away all your reasons to fear taxes?

This is very true. There are no poor to speak of in some Scandinavian countries. Yet they live a nice life style.
 
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