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God Always Existed/Universe Always Existed

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
linwood said:
There is more than one kind of "faith".
I`ll show you there are at least two that I know of.
There is "blind faith" and therre is "rational Faith".
Here`s the difference.
Quote Roli I'm sure there are many different versions and expressions of faith, but when it comes right down to it at the end of the day it remains faith.regardless of whether you catagorize it blind faith,rational faith, strong faith,weak faith,temporary faith, call it what you want but key word is faith and some of the characteristics are trust, assumption,take for granted,belief,rely, arrogance
You never will have absolute proof regardless of past experiential certainties and outcomes that something will happen the way it always has ,everything is subject to change despite wishful thinking,rational thought and experience.

Why am I not surprised in the intellectual gymnastics of rational thought towards the definition of the word faith,you either have faith or you don't.
Is it that the word faith,so closely linked to Christianity,God etc,that makes it so debatable and such easy pray to refute and or deny.
I can't imagine what it must be like for those who are consumed and in bondage with fear.The thoughts of distrust,insecurity,danger,sickness,death,harm are indications of the absense of faith and trust . It may be mentally related but it still is the epitome of faithlessness inaction. FEAR False Evidence Appearing Real is absence of FAITH
A life without faith is really more recognised in our society as fear(phobia) and there are literally hundreds of manifestations but all point back to fear.,or lack of faith.
I can't think of the condition of one who remains indoors,and is afraid to come outside,talk to people,touch things, it is border line schizophrenia,but not the word I'm looking for.
Def:Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true ( Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.
QuoteRoliFaith either is or it is'nt, to break it down catgorically into particular tenets is your perogative but it will always remain faith or trust
.I`ve never had a boss fail to pay me nor have I ever had a bank steal my money.
This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.
Quote Roli But tell that to Jets Go employee's and their families,but they were a good company
Companies close unexpectedly everyday,will you argue that
.I`ve been in and driven many many automobiles.
I have been in a few wrecks but the ratio of safe transit to wrecked auto is acceptable to me.

This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.

Quote Roli Tell that to those who have either had their vehicles recalled or were in acidents,FAITH!!! rational faith may convince you to get in your car but in the end it is still faith.

But it`s not "blind faith"
Millions of people survive plane rides and chairs on a daily basis.
This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.
Quote Roli Tell that to 911 victims,and families who experieced years of Air travel without incident.
Now, some of us just have to have more faith to get on a plane,others could care less,but they still operate in faith. If they could see any indication of danger they would be fools to attempt to fly. Without faith paranoia sets in among other THINGS.
It's ironic that after the 911 incident, the churches and highways were packed on Sundays,:help: causing many to call on God,but now life is back to normal
I`ve never been harmed by any water I drank.
Besides it is a necessary risk anyway, one cannot survive without water.
Not drinking water out of fear is definately going to cause harm, the odds that drinking water is safe are good.
This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.
QUOTE ROLI Tell that to Walkerton victims here in Ontario Canada,who many died with one of the worst tainted water out breaks in Canadian history.
Millions upon millions eat out daily.
The odds of food borne illness during a meal against enjoyable dining experience aren`t worth the worry.
I`ve eaten in thousands of restaurants without ill effect.

This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.

Well I'm sure there are many who have experienced food poisoning but still continue eating out ,but faith is the key for them to do that,
No..it`s not.
I`m not capable of "Blind Faith" You do it everyday don't fight the truth
I can`t do it, I see no benefit to it. But you still do it.
Regardless of your views you are living proof of a life lived out by faith,

The surgeon has a history of success if he is cutting me. You could be his 1st mistake
I don`t have a clue about Gods history and the history attributed to him doesn`t engender trust.
Quote Roli Is it the history of God who has made you feel this way or man and his perversion of the things of God,don't be so quick to blame God for man's mistakes that may only strengthen your case that if you look for him you may find Him. Blameshifting diverts.
This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.
Quote Roli But today he could come in having a bad day,lots on his mind etc,you are still operating in faith and trust allow him to cut,and reagrdless of how much you debate me on this he still is prone to failure and mistakes.
When you understand why you reject Unicorns you`ll understand why I reject your god.
Have faith in the unicorns Roli..just believe in them.
Quote Roli The difference with God and unicorns is when you believe and have faith in God he manifests and reveals himself to the one who excercises faith in Him.
He gives you an inner witness of assurance by placing in you His manifested presence.
Basically, God will come and live inside you make His abode in you.show you what you were created for and what you will be able to do through His power
He will guide you into all truth and that is those whom are born of the spirit of God.
If you want unicorms to come to you in the night and parade around in your mind ,go for it, but I will choose to seek the Lord who is alive and follow Him as HE shows me the purpose of life and gives me salvation to deliever me from death ( eternal life)and reveals the mysteries of Himself and the Glory of His works, what Hope ,WOW!!
Don`t question the horned ones, just devote your life to the worship of these magnificent powerful creatures and you`ll be rewarded with all your heart has ever desired.
Allow them to tell you how to live your life and tell you what is right for you.
Quote Roli Life surely is exciting when you taste eternity while here on earth all the while knowing that this is not my home ,I am only passing thru here,this life is nothing incomparison to what awaits me in eternity,to have this certainity and assurance and revealation not to mention His life living inside me,all because I had child like faith.

They will not come to God because He is light and light exposes darkness, they hate the light and will not come into the light for fear there deeds will be seen.

Prayer is the key to heaven but Faith unlocks the Door
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Quote Roli I'm sure there are many different versions and expressions of faith, but when it comes right down to it at the end of the day it remains faith.regardless of whether you catagorize it blind faith,rational faith, strong faith,weak faith,temporary faith, call it what you want but key word is faith and some of the characteristics are trust, assumption,take for granted,belief,rely, arrogance
You never will have absolute proof regardless of past experiential certainties and outcomes that something will happen the way it always has ,everything is subject to change despite wishful thinking,rational thought and experience.

I have never once asked for "absolute" proof for anything.
Never not once.
All I ask for is even a shred of supportable evidence.
There is none for any single deity or religious system.


Why am I not surprised in the intellectual gymnastics of rational thought towards the definition of the word faith,you either have faith or you don't.
Is it that the word faith,so closely linked to Christianity,God etc,that makes it so debatable and such easy pray to refute and or deny.

This is not gymnastics.
You say ...

I'm sure there are many different versions and expressions of faith, but when it comes right down to it at the end of the day it remains faith.regardless of whether you catagorize it blind faith,rational faith, strong faith,weak faith,temporary faith, call it what you want but key word is faith and some of the characteristics are trust, assumption,take for granted,belief,rely, arrogance

I disagree, they aren`t all the same anymore than cherry ice cream is the same as fois gras ice cream.
Just ask my daughter, she`ll jump al over a bowl of cherry but just try and get her to accept fois gras ice cream and she`ll spit it back out at you.
Just because they are all ice cream doesn`t make them equal.
I am capable of faith, I am not capable of blind faith.
Deny what you will it doesn`t change the truth of the matter.

I can't imagine what it must be like for those who are consumed and in bondage with fear.The thoughts of distrust,insecurity,danger,sickness,death,harm are indications of the absense of faith and trust . It may be mentally related but it still is the epitome of faithlessness inaction. FEAR False Evidence Appearing Real is absence of FAITH
A life without faith is really more recognised in our society as fear(phobia) and there are literally hundreds of manifestations but all point back to fear.,or lack of faith.
I can't think of the condition of one who remains indoors,and is afraid to come outside,talk to people,touch things, it is border line schizophrenia,but not the word I'm looking for.

What bearing does this have on the discussion?
We are speaking of a different faith here Roli.
Until you can distinguish between the types of faith then there can be no discussion.


Def:Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true ( Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.

Yes, that is the definition of faith but as I`ve already repeatedly pointed out "faith" often has it`s roots in different foundations.
Any faith I display MUST be founded in observable evidence.
I must have reason the believe "a thing is true" I cannot just believe it for the sake of believing it.
It`s not rational.

QuoteRoliFaith either is or it is'nt, to break it down catgorically into particular tenets is your perogative but it will always remain faith or trust

Yes it will always remain faith or trust but again..I do not trust without reason thus the different categories.

.I`ve never had a boss fail to pay me nor have I ever had a bank steal my money.
This is rational faith because it is based upon prior supportive evidence.
Quote Roli But tell that to Jets Go employee's and their families,but they were a good company
Companies close unexpectedly everyday,will you argue that

Yes I agree to it but as i`ve already said not all companies close down unexpectedly.
In fact the percentage that do close down unexpectedly to those that do not is so great that "faith" is reasonable.


Quote Roli Tell that to those who have either had their vehicles recalled or were in acidents,FAITH!!! rational faith may convince you to get in your car but in the end it is still faith.

Quote Roli Tell that to 911 victims,and families who experieced years of Air travel without incident.

Do you think none of the surviving family memebers ever get on planes today?
Rubbish!


It's ironic that after the 911 incident, the churches and highways were packed on Sundays,:help: causing many to call on God,but now life is back to normal

That just supports my beliefs about the reasons humanity needs religion.
Those reasons are empty.

I`m not capable of "Blind Faith" You do it everyday don't fight the truth

Do not presume to know what I do and what I do not do.
I have not once in my rational adult life gambled anything upon "Blind Faith" I sure as hell don`t do it every day.


Quote Roli Is it the history of God who has made you feel this way or man and his perversion of the things of God,don't be so quick to blame God for man's mistakes that may only strengthen your case that if you look for him you may find Him. Blameshifting diverts.

You misunderstand my meaning.
If thee god of the Christian judaic Bible does exist I prefer oblivion.
Eternity with such a being is hell to me.
The Abrahamic god is one of the most egotistical, malevolent beings I`ve ever read of.
I have no wish to ever meet him if he exists.

Quote Roli The difference with God and unicorns is when you believe and have faith in God he manifests and reveals himself to the one who excercises faith in Him.

So do unicorns Roli, so do unicorns.


You are the perfect example of objective spirituality, morality, and belief.
You will remain unenlightened until you can see past your "faith".
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Quote Linwood You are the perfect example of objective spirituality, morality, and belief.
You will remain unenlightened until you can see past your "faith".

QUOTE ROLI On the contrary my eyes have been enlightened thru faith and the spirit of wisdom and revealation of my God have given me illumination,but people can only look from the outside in and scratch their head,question,refute,disagree etc.etc.
I understand you seem quite upset at God, Why is that?, maybe that is why you stand so strongly behind the wall of intellct reason and logic,
You put so much energy defending those views and refute the invisible realm and existence of God,which simple faith would make so clear, it seems apparent, anger has gripped you to make such a harsh concluding statement
If thee god of the Christian judaic Bible does exist I prefer oblivion.
Eternity with such a being is hell to me.
The Abrahamic god is one of the most egotistical, malevolent beings I`ve ever read of.
I have no wish to ever meet him if he exists


I have said before Faith in God does not stop there it is the first step ,This whole purpose of this thread from my perspective is not to argue but show that faith we use everyday is the key that that God has given man that unlocks the hidden mysteries of God,beyond your imaginations,
Faith is not just my perspective for arguement sake but is alive and real, it is a key to the mind ,heart and will of God and has opened up a realm in the supernatural most will never comprehend,unless they trust Christ as Lord and Savior
It is not just about a firm belief,faith or position to ram down peoples throat,but a personal real life supernatural encounter with an entity, that is so much more greater then who we are and has so many plans and purposes for us,what hope to know we have divine purpose and can touch God.
If anything that has been said Linwood in this thread that has been accurate ,it is your most recent comment above,regarding my objective perspective
According to the 1st meaning of objective, ,I agree I am examplifying objective reality in the above mentioned areas, spirituality, morality, and belief,thank you for noticing,because when my faith was excercised,experience happened
belonging to immediate experience of actual things or events; "concrete benefits"; "

This 2nd meaning is absolutely where I stand, oh ya !!!! undistorted,
undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena;

It is so much more then feelings because of a personal experiential and factual encounter,feelings come and go with faiths and practices,
emphasizing or expressing things as perceived without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation; "
EPH1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your *understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Quote Linwood
If thee god of the Christian judaic Bible does exist I prefer oblivion.
Eternity with such a being is hell to me.
The Abrahamic god is one of the most egotistical, malevolent beings I`ve ever read of.
I have no wish to ever meet him if he exists

Lost in Oblivion is where you will end up
Apparently you won't be in his presence but where you will be is where you wish, away from Him and there is only 2 places we will go when when we die. You pick where you hang your hat,big guy

I don't know what God you read about and what transaltions have been circulating out there,but you have taken some things a bit to personal,without a full understanding, but it is not uncommon that many see God as a tyrant and egotistical,dictator, it's another one of those things that people use to justify disobedience and rebellion against a moral,Holy ,righteous God.
if you really read any of the bible and are not just picking and choosing according to you how you feel you would see the grace and mercy he issued to the people over and over and over again,longsuffering,patience, forbearance etc,all in hopes they would return to him.
As a matter of fact that is why you or any of us are still breathing, he is showing you mercy,God is not willing that anyone perish but all come to repentence
IF you were a king and your people rebelled against you and served and worshipped other idols ,ah !!!!
I think you would unleash your wrath,but from a human perspective and I doubt you would be as tolerant.
But again the bible is not just a book of nice stories and if you read without the Holy Spirit inside you it will remain only that a book ,which is and will be subject to criticism, ridicule and refute.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Lost in Oblivion is where you will end up
Apparently you won't be in his presence but where you will be is where you wish, away from Him and there is only 2 places we will go when when we die. You pick where you hang your hat,big guy


As I always have and I would have it no other way.
Considering the fact that IF your heaven existed it wouldn`t be ME residing there even if I did follow your your gods laws.

I don't know what God you read about and what transaltions have been circulating out there,but you have taken some things a bit to personal,without a full understanding, but it is not uncommon that many see God as a tyrant and egotistical,dictator, it's another one of those things that people use to justify disobedience and rebellion against a moral,Holy ,righteous God.

Roli, it seems you cannot grasp the concept of my beliefs.
I cannot rebel against your god nor do I need to justify any disobedience towards him anymore than I could rebel or justify my disobedience towards and against the tooth fairy.
The god I have a problem with is the one who committed multiple genocides, justified rape kidnapping and the ripping of fetuses from their mother wombs.
Lets not forget the happiness that comes from dashing children against the rocks and the destruction of almost every living thing on the planet.
Thats the god I have a problem with, the fig tree cursing gives me pause but I guess anyone could have a bad day.

if you really read any of the bible and are not just picking and choosing according to you how you feel you would see the grace and mercy he issued to the people over and over and over again,longsuffering,patience, forbearance etc,all in hopes they would return to him.

I have read the Bible, most of the atheists I know have read the Bible.
In fact if the percentage of Christians who read the Bible was as high as that of atheists who read the Bible I think we`d have less Christians.
I`ve read it, I`ve studied it and still...no personal revelation.
Odd huh?
Maybe I`m immune to the magic, my loss.

IF you were a king and your people rebelled against you and served and worshipped other idols ,ah !!!!

If I were king those who followed me would at the very least have the opportunity to see and speak with me.

I think you would unleash your wrath,but from a human perspective and I doubt you would be as tolerant.


Please point me to some of the OT tolerance of God, I must`ve missed a chapter while I was squinting my eyes against the gore and destruction..

But again the bible is not just a book of nice stories and if you read without the Holy Spirit inside you it will remain only that a book ,which is and will be subject to criticism, ridicule and refute.

It has SOME nice stories, Sam1 & 2 come to mind.
I guess the Holy Spirit had more pressing appointments when I read the Bible.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
For Adam's disobedience he did nt get killed,immediately he got banned
-Gen 3: 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

CAIN AND Abel For Dis obedience he was cursed but in verse 15 God's grace and mercy still on Cain
10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth."
13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."
15 And the Lord said to him, *"Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.
DEUT

Noah found grace in God, but the rest of man was wicked all flesh
Gen6:5 Then *the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

I will establish a covenant
Gen6:18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19
God is looking for righteousness,but you don't obviously know what that means to God ,again beause He is Holy ,righteousness and just
Gen7 :1 Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

God's grace and mercy
Gen 7 :21Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done

Every time you look at a rainbow remember God's covenant & as a sign og mercy
Gen9:12 And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
Abraham pleads and bartar's with God for Him not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there are righteous people there ,from 50 down to 10,could not find 10 righteous
Gen18:"Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26 So the Lord said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?"
So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it."
29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?"
So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty."
30 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?"
So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?"
So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty."
32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?"
And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

God's mercy on Lot and his family
12 Then the men said to Lot, "Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city--take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it."
Exodus3:7 God hears the cry of the people,sends Moses to bring them out
Read Exodus 12 - 34 wher Moses brought the people out of captivity and time and time again they rebelled,COMPLAINED ,WORSHIPPED iDOLS and God spared them but left them in the widerness
Exodus32 the people rebelled and Moses pleads to God and GOD spares them sends them into the wilderness to test them but provides miracles ,food from heaven clothes and health
Judges 6 Israel does evil in the sight of the Lord and sends them into the hands of the enemy ,but then delivers them verse 13- 14

Deut gives many opportunities to choose to obey and forewarns of impending judgement
Nehemiah 1 intercedes for the people of Israel
Ezekiel God uses the prophet to warn and and intercede for the people
Jonah God sends Jonah to a whole city to warn them of ht e judgement that is upon them, and Jonah preaches to them to repent they listen and are spared
Then there is the New Teatament ,Jesus coming on behalf of sinful man to atone for sin that is the epitome of God's mercy to a wicked generation. That is the part people overlook the most ,but the day will bring it to light
Linwood Quote
I guess the Holy Spirit had more pressing appointments when I read the Bible.

Roli Quote Until you humble yourself before God and repent of your sin you will be separated and overlooked and remain in the natural intellect, always in the dark regarding God.
You trust your mind ,your reasoning and your logic and it gives you some sort of position or leg to stand on here in this life but where does that really compare to God
The very breath you just took indicates His mercy and grace ,hoping you will turn to Him.
Most people must lose a few things that they cherish in this life before they turn to God, and the first thing comes to mind is pride,arrogance,self righteousness in thinking your logic can figure God out and because you don't understand something you think you gain the right to dis. Him.
You think you will undersatnd the nature ,purpose and heart of God from a human mindset and understanding, sorry,not how God works, it is like a man who casts his pearls before swine.
I have said before, how do expect to see God's righteousness and Holiness thru your natural eyes,you will only see Him as you have so freely expressed, but there is a side to Him you will never know,unless,unless, you except Jesus as Savior but again you must see your sin and need of a savior before that takes place.
I respect the fact that you have that right to choose

Unless you see you need God's forgiveness you will forever remain on the side of confusion and anger and left with the idea your justified in your conclusions and descriptions of God ,
I wonder if your views influence those close to you into following your views as well .
Are you giving them a chance to make their own decision, maybe it will be your daughter that God speaks to and saves,which will lead you to the truth,but it sounds like you already have all knowledge and understanding.
I wonder who will appear the dictator

I
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Roli,

You still do not understand.
I caot humble myself before anything that does not exist.
If your god would give me but a single solid reason to believe he exists I would become a believer so fast it would make your head sopin.
Most probably not a follower but I would have no choice but to believe.

Since there is no more evidence for your god than there is for countless other gods there is no reason for me to believe any god is real.

You must look past your preconceived concepts of beliefs that are not yours if you wish to understand them.
Instead you keep repeating the same uneducated ingrained mantras over and over again.
If this is the only method you have to relate the truth of your beliefs to those who do not share them the only success you will ever have for getting your point across will be while preaching to the choir.

Failure to understand another will also cause you to fail t be understood.

Unless you see you need God's forgiveness you will forever remain on the side of confusion and anger and left with the idea your justified in your conclusions and descriptions of God ,
I wonder if your views influence those close to you into following your views as well .
Are you giving them a chance to make their own decision, maybe it will be your daughter that God speaks to and saves,which will lead you to the truth,but it sounds like you already have all knowledge and understanding.
I wonder who will appear the dictator


This paragraph is quite ironic.
Again, I cannot be angry nor confused about your god until I have reason to believe he exists.
I have no reason to believe.

I do not know if you are old enough to have children Roli but I`m quite sure that you would not give yours the same "chance" to make their own decisions as I have mine.
You make assumptions about me that a quick reading of my posts in this forum would show to be untrue.

This is typical of an objective pre-ingrained perspective on the world and those within it.

 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
linwood said:
Roli,

You still do not understand.
I caot humble myself before anything that does not exist.
If your god would give me but a single solid reason to believe he exists I would become a believer so fast it would make your head sopin.
Most probably not a follower but I would have no choice but to believe.

Since there is no more evidence for your god than there is for countless other gods there is no reason for me to believe any god is real.

You must look past your preconceived concepts of beliefs that are not yours if you wish to understand them.
Instead you keep repeating the same uneducated ingrained mantras over and over again.
If this is the only method you have to relate the truth of your beliefs to those who do not share them the only success you will ever have for getting your point across will be while preaching to the choir.

Failure to understand another will also cause you to fail t be understood.

Unless you see you need God's forgiveness you will forever remain on the side of confusion and anger and left with the idea your justified in your conclusions and descriptions of God ,
I wonder if your views influence those close to you into following your views as well .
Are you giving them a chance to make their own decision, maybe it will be your daughter that God speaks to and saves,which will lead you to the truth,but it sounds like you already have all knowledge and understanding.
I wonder who will appear the dictator


This paragraph is quite ironic.
Again, I cannot be angry nor confused about your god until I have reason to believe he exists.
I have no reason to believe.

I do not know if you are old enough to have children Roli but I`m quite sure that you would not give yours the same "chance" to make their own decisions as I have mine.
You make assumptions about me that a quick reading of my posts in this forum would show to be untrue.

This is typical of an objective pre-ingrained perspective on the world and those within it.

As a theist, linwood, I cannot but agree with you; I have my beliefs, but I do not believe in cruisades. One of the greatest 'gifts' to humanity is the ability to make choices. I respect your choice as much as I do mine.:)
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
I am truly sorry for the misunderstanding,,by no means do I condemn anyone for there viewpoint,but my zeal for the souls of people get's the best of me sometimes.
I don't expect you or anyone to percieve how it is I or any truly born again spirit filled Christian can claim to see the condition and eminent danger of mankind and where they stand with God without Christ , or the whole plan of salvation for that matter.
MY VIEWS
I liken my view to that of someone swimming in the middle of a river, an unsuspecting place of danger,basking in the sun,enjoying the warm waters of the moment and trusting so natutrally in his ability to free float, but unbeknown to the swmmer,he is foating ever so slowly to eminent danger , toatally unaware of the danger ahead. As I look out I see a 200 foot drop 300 yards downstream from the swimmer,I am quite familiar with the area and danger that will befall him if he continues on his progressive route. He seems comforted and consoled in the fact that he is physically fit and trained exclusively for any apparent danger and has no idea of what lies ahead
I begin to yell and wave my arms,unsuccessful as it is, he see's me and begins to wave and continue in his enjoyable moment.I can't wait any longer I jump in and begin to swim towards him as I approach him and continue in my zeal to confront him about the danger ahead, he continues to ignore me.
Finally I am within range to speak clearly but still he ignores my pleading,Finally I am in range to reach hm, as I do, he refuses to open his mind to what I have to say and trust what I have seen downstream,my perspective was not his,I appeared to him as irate and irrational, trusting in his knowledge and ability to handel danger he insisted I leave him alone and respect his ability to chose, so I could do nothing, but watch helplessly as he floats over the falls,imagining what he might be thinking.

Changed the Scene
Let's say ,I did'nt say anything and just swam out ,grabbed him and pulled him in ,he would inturn become irate and hostile ,and scream and shout ,profanity ,expressing his displeasure with and profeessing arrogantly he is not in danger, and knows what he is doing ,as we approach the shore he becomes coherent and rational and we stand back and show him the perspective that he was ingnorant of was the one that saved him.
That is how I see the condition of men's souls, it's not so deep as it is reality.
I feel I am very repectful of others viewpoints, my position really is not one of refuting your entitlement to believe or not believe.
I will never attempt to pursuade or coherse people into following my belief,that is God's job to draw those who will seek him.Key word,seek.
You say ,show you the evidence, I can direct you to some sites that have so much physical ,scientific,archeological,evidence that it will keep you searching til' Jesus returns,NO PUN INTENDED
I believe you are extremely resourceful and quite capable to research any physical ,scientific,archeological,evidence,out there on your own and there is sufficient resources available to find out exactly what is turning even those professionals who once took a evolutuionary viewpoint back to wondering if God really did do what Christianity claims.

QUOTE LINWOOD
If your god would give me but a single solid reason to believe he exists I would become a believer so fast it would make your head

My question to you is what kind of evidence OR REASON outside of physical, would convince you that God may exist,please give me some examples,because I have had people with a sincere heart ask the same question ,"if God would speak to me this way maybe I would beleive" and many times providing ther hearts were serious
I can honestly say that God wants to reveal himself to us far more then we want to find him

So humor God and just think of something you want God to do for you,or reveal to you,I don't mean like a sugar daddy, but from a sincere heart ask him and if he does'nt show up I will renounce my faith.

If your heart is sincere and motives are as well,God will show up,

I will just leave this thread alone from here on in unless you are inclined to initiate any other response and or issues,but I appreciate your time and I am teachable by some of the things you have said in reagrds to this thread and my responses and I will seriously consider future threads,we are for ever seated in the proverbial class of higher learning providing we are open to be taught.
So thanks Roli
 

Hema

Sweet n Spicy
God is not limited by space and that which is limited by space is limited by time. God is not limited by time. God has no beginning and no end. I know this is difficult for the human mind to comprehend but consider this. I once read about someone’s out of body experience. The person related that when he/she was in the spiritual realm, it was as though time did not exist, as though there was no concept of time. People marvel at how life support machinery sustains someone who is dying but they don’t marvel at what keeps us alive now. That power is God. A few years ago, Hindu murtis were drinking milk. I witnessed it myself. I placed a spoonful of milk near the mouth of my Grandmother’s Hanuman murti and the milk slowly disappeared. Isn’t that a miracle? I wouldn’t lie to you. If I’m lying then I’ll drop dead now. Look, I’m still typing. I’m still alive. Be still and feel God’s love inside of you. Love comes from God. God is love.
 

darkwaldo

Member
atofel said:
Many objections to this (and one that you finely pointed out), is that if the Universe must have a creator, then why wouldn't God have a creator too. And the answer to this is that God is not a structured entity. You cannot decompose God into formulas and equations, and he cannot be printed out on to schematic drawings. He is infinite in the sense that he cannot be measured or quantified. We can say a rock weighs 45 pounds, but we cannot say God is some amount of anything. God is not structured, and therefore, does not need a designer.. he simply Is.

What led you to the conclusion that god is not a structured entity? I think if someone was to find physical evidence of god, then scientist could probably find a way to measure and quantify the god.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
darkwaldo said:
I think if someone was to find physical evidence of god, then scientist could probably find a way to measure and quantify the god.

Lucky for God, then, that such evidence will never be found, eh? @ least, not in all the usual places people look for such evidence, anyway.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
darkwaldo said:
What led you to the conclusion that god is not a structured entity? I think if someone was to find physical evidence of god, then scientist could probably find a way to measure and quantify the god.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "god", but what I mean by God is an infinite being who is simply immeasurable. A god whose entire nature can be objectively studied and quantified cannot be omipotent/omnipresent/omniscient.
 

Kay

Towards the Sun
I believe that God and a universe have always existed, but then I'm a panentheist with a smidgeon of process theology thrown in. :D
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
GeneCosta said:
Hi, I haven't posted here in quite sometime. Hope you can bare with me. :)

I have a question. This goes out to anyone who has a religious affilation. I'm going to make an assumption for a minute and say that you claim God(Allah/Jehova/Etc) has always existed. Whenever I question people like that as to how "God could always exist" I'm given a "because".

Yet you can easily replace GOD with the universe(s), could you not? Our primitive minds might not be able to comprehend there being no beginning, but it's possible [it's actually what I beleive] that the universe has always existed. That it's just one big cycle and we're just caught in the bigger picture.

After all if you beleive in infinite space, then you can beleive in infinite time.

So my question is how can you throw down my beleifs? I beleive the universe has always existed and that it will always exist.

[Incase of a rebutal] I don't beleive in a God because it seems too primitive of an answer, and there is enough evidence to prove me otherwise. However most opposing claims I hear have little backing. I'm the sort of person who enjoys proof. It's just who I am [you can even go as far as claiming that's how "God" made me, although I don't beleive so].


Hope to get some replies. Thanks.

Well according to the majority of physicists the universe is not cyclic, it had a begining and will have an end.
The universe is open.
This means that (given the fact we have detected backround radiation left behind from the initial inflation and we observe red shift from the most distant galaxies) the universe seems to have originated from a single loci or point in space and time (nicknamed the big bang) and has inflated up to its current volume over a period of approx 15 billion years give or take 5 billion years.
The universe lacks sufficent mass density to recollapse, in other words it will expand forever, well, until the very protons themselves decay into subatomic particles and radiation, this is called the 'heat death of the universe'.

Therefore this universe is not eternal nor infinite.
Spacetime however may be infinite, but matter and energy are not.
Thats the official line.

God may have created the universe, how I don't now, but it would make sense to me that God would create a finite universe rather than an infinite one.

On a personal note.
Infinity is a abhorrent concept for me and I dont believe infinty exists in nature.
 

adilrockstar

Active Member
GeneCosta said:
Hi, I haven't posted here in quite sometime. Hope you can bare with me. :)

I have a question. This goes out to anyone who has a religious affilation. I'm going to make an assumption for a minute and say that you claim God(Allah/Jehova/Etc) has always existed. Whenever I question people like that as to how "God could always exist" I'm given a "because".

Yet you can easily replace GOD with the universe(s), could you not? Our primitive minds might not be able to comprehend there being no beginning, but it's possible [it's actually what I beleive] that the universe has always existed. That it's just one big cycle and we're just caught in the bigger picture.

After all if you beleive in infinite space, then you can beleive in infinite time.

So my question is how can you throw down my beleifs? I beleive the universe has always existed and that it will always exist.

[Incase of a rebutal] I don't beleive in a God because it seems too primitive of an answer, and there is enough evidence to prove me otherwise. However most opposing claims I hear have little backing. I'm the sort of person who enjoys proof. It's just who I am [you can even go as far as claiming that's how "God" made me, although I don't beleive so].


Hope to get some replies. Thanks.

All I can reply for you is that if I pray to the Moon it doesn't answer my prayers. If I pray to Jesus, he listens and responds. And about proof, you must first have faith then God will give you "proof".
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
GeneCosta said:
Hi, I haven't posted here in quite sometime. Hope you can bare with me. :)

I have a question. This goes out to anyone who has a religious affilation. I'm going to make an assumption for a minute and say that you claim God(Allah/Jehova/Etc) has always existed. Whenever I question people like that as to how "God could always exist" I'm given a "because".

Yet you can easily replace GOD with the universe(s), could you not? Our primitive minds might not be able to comprehend there being no beginning, but it's possible [it's actually what I beleive] that the universe has always existed. That it's just one big cycle and we're just caught in the bigger picture.

After all if you beleive in infinite space, then you can beleive in infinite time.

So my question is how can you throw down my beleifs? I beleive the universe has always existed and that it will always exist.

[Incase of a rebutal] I don't beleive in a God because it seems too primitive of an answer, and there is enough evidence to prove me otherwise. However most opposing claims I hear have little backing. I'm the sort of person who enjoys proof. It's just who I am [you can even go as far as claiming that's how "God" made me, although I don't beleive so].


Hope to get some replies. Thanks.
(I couldn't quite get through the other posts, so I'm just going to respond to the OP. Sorry if I repeat anything!)

I became an atheist for awhile due to a string of philosophy classes that logically broke down my belief in God. The problem is, I couldn't reconcile my logic with what I truly felt or wanted to believe.

So, I sought for a reasonable (not necessarily logical) justification for what I felt.

I first made the assumption that the Universe could not exist without subjective observation. By that, I mean that if there was nothing to experience the Universe, it could not exist. It sounds ridiculous (and it may well be), but dispite the more popular view that it would, I say it wouldn't. Why? Well, it may as well not exist. No, that's not the same as "it doesn't," but it may as well be :)D). How could it be there all existing as it does, if nothing can experience it?

Anyway. Since life is here to experience it, it exists. In fact, the most distant quasars that we'll never observe exist, since they are a part of the observable Universe that allows us to exist.

But, since Life is a rather delicate thing (as we know it), it cannot be assumed that life has always been around. If the Universe is truly infinite, it is perhaps possible that life could exist somewhere at any given eon, and that would end that line of thought. But, from what we know so far, the material Universe is cyclical in the expanding/retracting model (unless some new discovery has changed this. I'm no astrophysicist), and this isn't really conducive to continuous life (again, as we know it).

So, the only way for the Universe to continue to exist in this model is for there to be some sort of subjective force (or being) always observing it. Perhaps this subjective force doesn't actually observe, it just simply makes sure that life is continually being renewed in the Universal cycle.

Okay, maybe this is about the corniest philosophical excuse for God ever conceived (somewhere close to the Ontological Argument;)), but it at least opens up the possibility for me. Since I always expound that the logical, reasonable stuff is only a part of the stuff that makes up our reality, part of my belief in God is imaginative. I see God as more of the subjective side to the Universe - as in, there is an overall consciousness to it. Just as we are objectively observable by other beings yet experience life subjectively, I believe that God is the conscious force behind the Universe (in a sense, the Universe itself, hence I'm a panentheist).

Anyway, not sure that made a whole lot of sense outside my brain. I really think my posts are better on the weekends when I don't have work to wear me out! But, I think that works with the OP. Hope you enjoyed it!:)
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
adilrockstar said:
All I can reply for you is that if I pray to the Moon it doesn't answer my prayers. If I pray to Jesus, he listens and responds. And about proof, you must first have faith then God will give you "proof".

I pray to the Moon (and Sun) and get the answers I need...
 
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