Just who has Dominion on earth anyway?

God wont interfere because if he does, it just takes longer for this system of things to end.

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?

He had to let go of this world to make his will actually take place.

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?!

That is that all humans to have the chance to gain repentance and continue in spreading the good news of the kingdom

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"Gain repentance?" I thought repentance was an action, not a possession. And, where in Genesis do we find humans "spreading the good news of the kingdom?"
I don't understand what you're getting at here.

the best way to read the bible. Think of it from Gods View point, not any humans. The bible is from Jehovah after all and it is there toteach us what we should be doing in our lives.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

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First of all, I wasn't asking you. I was asking "Greatest."
Second, your post is not helpful. We read scripture from our POV, because it was written from our POV. The Bible is not "from Jehovah." It's "from Tradition" -- human religious Tradition. We don't know how God thinks. But we do know how we think in relationship with God.

sojourner said:

?
"Gain repentance?" I thought repentance was an action, not a possession. And, where in Genesis do we find humans "spreading the good news of the kingdom?"
I don't understand what you're getting at here.

First of all, I wasn't asking you. I was asking "Greatest."
Second, your post is not helpful. We read scripture from our POV, because it was written from our POV. The Bible is not "from Jehovah." It's "from Tradition" -- human religious Tradition. We don't know how God thinks. But we do know how we think in relationship with God.

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If God intervenes with satans plans for this world, its just going to keep going on and on like it is. God has let satans challenge to His authority play out, he has held back to an extent or let go of the reigns in a way to let satan make his case. The case that satan is saying to God, (paraphrasing here) look I reckon humans can do things better on their own, let them rules themselves. They will do what ever they can, even the righteous men, to turn againts you.

That is the challenge laid out to God by satan. We learn this from the scriptures themselves, not from man made tradition.

When you look at the challenge, satan has had to have time as i said earlier to prove his case, that we humans can rule ourselves. Well we can rule ourselves yes, but where has it lead us? It definately has not lead us to the paradise we are offered from our loving God Jehovah, instead, it has lead us up the garden path

Jeremiah 10:23
I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step

Ecclesiasites 8:9
All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury.

We see from the scriptures themselves, that it is not for man to rule themselves and that we have dominated each other to their injury.


Yes you have the chance to gain repentance in a way, you have to ask for it and then prove that you want repentance, it is there for the taking, you just have to live your life in harmony with it. Repentance is freely given, if you want it.


You see Abraham living a good life, and so too Noah and Isaac. You need to stop looking at the bible as i it were from man, because it is Inspired of God", therefore from God

The preach the good news of the kingdom, does not come into the scriptures until the new testament, but it what Christs followers are asked by him to do. It is a sign of the last days of this system, of when Jesus'presence in heaven is there, that it is spread throughout the land, so that people can actually learn what God thinks and who he is and what he stand for, by a proper study of the bible.


Now traditions. Jesus told us what he thought of the pharsees and their traditions. So if Jesus who is the perfect reflection of God didnt like their traditions, then maybe God doesnt like them either.

We can get to see what God thinks and who he is. Throw out your traditions and read the scriptures with a clear mind. Using traditions of men to read the scriptures make them as clear as mud.

To me, they are as clear as the lfe giving waters God and Jesus have promsied to give us in the new system o things.

lockyfan said:

You need to stop looking at the bible as i it were from man, because it is Inspired of God", therefore from God

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The rest of the post is fine, but this kind of thing I have a problem with. You make a statement, and then fail to back it up.

How do you know that the Bible is from God and not a compilation of traditions of man?

That Timothy quote is not an answer, because Paul was talking about the Tanakh exclusively, not anything of the New Testament, and certainly not his own writings. Paul's letters are his own words, not God's, and I think Paul would be the first to agree with me.

Paul was filled with Holy Spirit when he wrote those words. They are therefore from God because the Holy Spirit itself is from God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.

We see here that the Holy Spirit which is poured out to Jesus' faithful Christians helps them to write and speak and say the things in the bible, because it is all actually from God, who has poured out the Holy Spirit to them.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead

Acts 2:32-33
This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear

1 Corinthians 1:11-13
For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with spiritual [words]

The Holy Spirit is what makes them say and write the words in the bible, whether it be the new or old testament.

The HGoly Spirit if from God, so therefore the bible is Inspired of God.

We learn this from the scriptures themselves, not from man made tradition.

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Except that both the scriptures and your interpretation of them are human Tradition...

You need to stop looking at the bible as i it were from man, because it is Inspired of God", therefore from God

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BZZZZZZZT "Inspired by" and "from" are two entirely different things. If we insist upon enshrining the Bible to the point that we can no longer read it critically, it's of very limited use.

Now traditions. Jesus told us what he thought of the pharsees and their traditions. So if Jesus who is the perfect reflection of God didnt like their traditions, then maybe God doesnt like them either.

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Just why, do you suppose, does Jesus "not like the traditions?" Matthew seems to have him pretty much sticking to the traditions.

Throw out your traditions and read the scriptures with a clear mind.

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Hmmm. Tradition would have me read uncritically, without any kind of exegesis or analysis. I should throw that out? Great!
You're right! a clear mind is gained by the use of literary and anthropological criticism when reading the Bible. Wonderful!

Using traditions of men to read the scriptures make them as clear as mud.

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You're right. We should all utilize the best critical scholarship and eschew this "reading purely in the spirit nonsense.

sojourner said:

Except that both the scriptures and your interpretation of them are human Tradition...

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How can it be human tradition when i am actually using the bible and taking it for what it says?

sojourner said:

BZZZZZZZT "Inspired by" and "from" are two entirely different things. If we insist upon enshrining the Bible to the point that we can no longer read it critically, it's of very limited use.

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Not really because Inspired by means that Holy Spirit from God was on these people as they wrote it. They were under his influence.
Why would you read the bible critically?

sojourner said:

Just why, do you suppose, does Jesus "not like the traditions?" Matthew seems to have him pretty much sticking to the traditions.

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Yeah the ones actually commanded by God to stick to, not the ones that the Pharisees were using to downgrade the lower classes

sojourner said:

Hmmm. Tradition would have me read uncritically, without any kind of exegesis or analysis. I should throw that out? Great!
You're right! a clear mind is gained by the use of literary and anthropological criticism when reading the Bible. Wonderful!

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Again why would you read the bible critically?

sojourner said:

You're right. We should all utilize the best critical scholarship and eschew this "reading purely in the spirit nonsense.

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What are you on about here? why again are you wanting to criticize the bible?
I live by its instruction and word. You obviously have no idea what it says because you like to criticize it. You have obviously looked far too deeply into the bible for it to even make sense to you and therefore you now have to criticize it.

How can it be human tradition when i am actually using the bible and taking it for what it says?

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Because, my dear Locky, you are human. You read with human eyes and understand with a human brain and process "what the Bible says" through your own human filter. We all do.
How do we know "what the Bible says?" I believe we can best know through critical, scholarly reading. We can also know (on a different level) through prayer. It takes both for really clear understanding.

Not really because Inspired by means that Holy Spirit from God was on these people as they wrote it. They were under his influence.
Why would you read the bible critically?

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But they understood that influence through the human filter. Inspiration is a good thing. "Fell out of the sky" is wishful thinking.
As I said above, we read critically in order to work our way through the human filter. If we can figure out what the authroial audience understood, inferred, and expected, then understood what the author was saying (through translations and across barriers of culture and time) our critical reading will gain us a clearer understanding of just what the writer meant when he wrote, "Knock on wood" in Greek. Then, coupled with prayer, that critical understanding will garner a spiritual awareness, as well. Those are two powerful tools to have in our arsenal. Why would you want to deprive us of one of them?

Yeah the ones actually commanded by God to stick to, not the ones that the Pharisees were using to downgrade the lower classes

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Again, the Law was never meant to disenfranchise. Motivation.

Again why would you read the bible critically?

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Why in the world wouldn't I??? When we come (for example) to the gospel of Matthew, it helps if we know the overarching theme of the gospel, if we understand the written form, and how that form serves to aid Matthew in his theological development. In Matthew, Jesus preaches five sermons. They're all different. What is their order? What is contained in them? How do they relate to the charge to the Church at the end of the gospel? How is all of that informed by the geneaology at the beginning (also a contradiction -- there are obvious mistakes, but we believe Matthew made them for a reason)? Critical reading helps us to understand these things, which contribute to a deeper understanding of the message.

What are you on about here? why again are you wanting to criticize the bible?
I live by its instruction and word. You obviously have no idea what it says because you like to criticize it. You have obviously looked far too deeply into the bible for it to even make sense to you and therefore you now have to criticize it.

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Reading critically and criticizing are two completely different things. I don't criticize the Bible. I criticize slipshod understanding of it. I have looked deeply and have found deep, deep meaning. It makes more sense to me now, in certain ways, and raises good questions for me in other ways. What's to criticize?

if it raises questions then you havent looked properly.

What are your questions?

I have none because i understand what i am reading. You dont look at each individual book in itself as meaning something different, you look at the bible as one whole cohesive thing. It makes sense and there are no questions to be asked, if you are looking deeply enough into the scriptures.

why do you insist the bible should be hard to understand

there are parts that need to be interpreted yes, but they are the things that are symbolic and when youl ook at the rest of hte bible they actually do make sense.

Please tell me your questions (in the correct thread) and i can look at them too. There maybe something one of us is missing but together we may find it. So Who has dominion over this earth?

Satan, God will soon

lockyfan said:

I have none because i understand what i am reading. You dont look at each individual book in itself as meaning something different, you look at the bible as one whole cohesive thing. It makes sense and there are no questions to be asked, if you are looking deeply enough into the scriptures.

why do you insist the bible should be hard to understand

there are parts that need to be interpreted yes, but they are the things that are symbolic and when youl ook at the rest of hte bible they actually do make sense.

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No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says. He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

lockyfan said:

Paul was filled with Holy Spirit when he wrote those words. They are therefore from God because the Holy Spirit itself is from God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.

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Okay. Everybody has the Spirit and therefore does things inspired by God.

Still not convinced.

We see here that the Holy Spirit which is poured out to Jesus' faithful Christians helps them to write and speak and say the things in the bible, because it is all actually from God, who has poured out the Holy Spirit to them.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead

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Here Paul talking about his role in this.

Acts 2:32-33
This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear

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"Luke" recording words that he had heard Peter said while preaching to a crowd of people.

1 Corinthians 1:11-13
For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with spiritual [words]

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Ah... so Paul did believe that he was speaking from God. I stand corrected. And my respect for him has dwindled a bit.

I'm afraid it will take more than simply saying so to convince me.

The Holy Spirit is what makes them say and write the words in the bible, whether it be the new or old testament.

The HGoly Spirit if from God, so therefore the bible is Inspired of God.

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Nope. This is using the logic of "the Bible is True because the Bible says so". That's like me saying that the Silmarillion is the genuine history of the Elves because the Silmarillion says so. It doesn't work.

Who’s got Dominion?

DL ~ I think the Dominican Republic has him. I'm still looking for WALDO:yes:

It all depends on what you believe.

I have shown you from what i believe, why I believe. I do not see myself knocking you and your beliefs yet you attack my beliefs for no reason other than to ridicule, when all I was doing was showing you some of my beliefs backed up from what I use to base them on.

And I have other reasons for why I believe what the bible says, for instance, prophecy that has been fulfilled. Things written over 2000 years ago

2 timothy 3:1-7
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power;

Does these things sound familiar to you? Do they ring true with Society as it stands now?

I know, you dont believe the bible, for whatever reason that you dont I can understand, but I do believe in it and thats my point. It all depends on what we believe and I am using what I believe in to bring across the points of what I believe.

Just as you use what you believe in to bring across your point of view. Thats what this site is all about after all

lockyfan said:

It all depends on what you believe.

I have shown you from what i believe, why I believe. I do not see myself knocking you and your beliefs yet you attack my beliefs for no reason other than to ridicule, when all I was doing was showing you some of my beliefs backed up from what I use to base them on.

And I have other reasons for why I believe what the bible says, for instance, prophecy that has been fulfilled. Things written over 2000 years ago

2 timothy 3:1-7
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power;

Does these things sound familiar to you? Do they ring true with Society as it stands now?

I know, you dont believe the bible, for whatever reason that you dont I can understand, but I do believe in it and thats my point. It all depends on what we believe and I am using what I believe in to bring across the points of what I believe.

Just as you use what you believe in to bring across your point of view. Thats what this site is all about after all

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Well the way you word things, it sounds a bit like you're trying to convince us that you're right and we're wrong.

If my statements came off as ridicule, then I apologize. :sorry1: That was not my intent. My intent was to show why I do not believe the Bible to be inspired by God.

Here's a friendly tip: preface or end such statements with variants of "in my opinion", "i believe...", etc. That alone can change the entire tone of a post that can otherwise be seen as proselytizing.

Look at the difference:

"All the gods are real."
"I believe that all the gods are real."

See the difference?

Now there's nothing wrong with believing the Bible, and believing the end is nigh. But that is a touchy subject, and you have to be very careful how you word your arguments. I need to learn how to better word mine as well, if my arguments came off as ridicule. :yes: (and not post something when I'm tired and not thinking straight anyway. )

By the way, that quote from Timothy, yes that does sound very familiar and does ring true for society today. But from what I've seen in history, things have always been that way. It's just that these days, it's easier to see the rest of the world.

Now that was intended to be a statement as to why I'm still unconvinced, and not as ridicule.

if it raises questions then you havent looked properly.

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I disagree. We should always question, since we can never completely plumb the depths of spiritual truth.

I have none because i understand what i am reading.

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What if someone comes up with a new understanding of the same reading? Are they "just wrong" because they don't jive with you? Is the onus always on the other party to read deeper? Why not you?

You dont look at each individual book in itself as meaning something different, you look at the bible as one whole cohesive thing.

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Actually, there are both spiritual and scholastic merit to doing both of those things.

It makes sense and there are no questions to be asked, if you are looking deeply enough into the scriptures.

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The best theologians and scholars spend a lifetime looking at scripture and coming up with new understanding.

why do you insist the bible should be hard to understand

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Because we're reading a translation of ancient documents from a different cultures than our own, mostly by anonymous authors.

there are parts that need to be interpreted yes, but they are the things that are symbolic and when youl ook at the rest of hte bible they actually do make sense.

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All reading is interpretive, whether symbolic or factual.

It's like a computer. Most of us understand the concept well enough to post in this forum. But how many of us could actually build one -- I mean from the ground up? Do we understand electronics theory? Do we understand how the microchips and other components function? Do we understand the complexities of how the software is designed, and how it operates? Most of us don't. We're happy to tra-la-la, use the darned things, but when they break down, or don't do what we want them to do, we become lost and frustrated. The same thing can happen in Biblical interpretation. That's why reading and understanding is so difficult. Because there are very few of us who really understand the Bible and its constituent parts.

I posit that God always has dominion over God's creation, regardless of our headlong rush into egocentrism.

lockyfan said:

It all depends on what you believe.

I have shown you from what i believe, why I believe. I do not see myself knocking you and your beliefs yet you attack my beliefs for no reason other than to ridicule, when all I was doing was showing you some of my beliefs backed up from what I use to base them on.

And I have other reasons for why I believe what the bible says, for instance, prophecy that has been fulfilled. Things written over 2000 years ago

2 timothy 3:1-7
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power;

Does these things sound familiar to you? Do they ring true with Society as it stands now?

I know, you dont believe the bible, for whatever reason that you dont I can understand, but I do believe in it and thats my point. It all depends on what we believe and I am using what I believe in to bring across the points of what I believe.

Just as you use what you believe in to bring across your point of view. Thats what this site is all about after all

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One should not believe literally a book that begins with a talking snake and ends with a seven headed monster. To do so turns a good Bible into a book of fairy tales.
Have you seen Religioulous. That is what happens. Fundamentals all hurt their parent religions by doing what you do.

Regards
DL

Riverwolf said:

By the way, that quote from Timothy, yes that does sound very familiar and does ring true for society today. But from what I've seen in history, things have always been that way. It's just that these days, it's easier to see the rest of the world.

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Yes very true but we all know from history that there was not wars famine disease death destruction every day of the week as we see it now

Do you sit there and say to people that you remember when you were a kid that you would be able to do things but now as an adult would you let your children if you do or dont have any would you ever let them do half the things you could?

You see society has changed for the worse and it is only going to get worse until something is done about it.