Christianity and religious pluralism

DarkSun · Apr 8, 2009

Jordan St. Francis said:
Dark Sun

Yes, I believe something along those lines is possible.

I agree completely, but I don't presume to know how God will judge each individual. That task is for Him alone.

9-10ths_Penguin · Apr 8, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
That's not a good thing considering the source is coming from a non-Christian. Do you remember my posting regarding the man without the Spirit does not have the ability to discern the things of God?

Yes, I do. Are you familar with the ad hominem fallacy? The mere fact that I'm not a Christian doesn't automatically render what I say invalid.

And I'm sure that if you have the "ability to discern the things of God", you'll be able to put together a half-decent argument to support your position, rather than brushing aside points you don't want to address with excuses that are the effective equivalent of "pffft, I don't have to answer you, heathen."

So... you think I'm "blind". Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. We can't exclude the possibility that I'm correct until you address my points, regardless of your opinion of me as a person or of my beliefs.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 8, 2009

DarkSun said:
Here are the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism: a key doctrine. As you can see, there is a great parallel with the whole concept of Original Sin:

That is just one link between Christianity and another world relgion. Do you want more?

I'm not sure if I follow you in regards to the link between Christianity and other world religions. Because we cannot deny the existence of suffering and finally death, this does not make Christianity to be compatible with other world religions in regards to suffering, at least the origin and cause of suffering. Here is the Christian worldview on why we suffer and die. We all suffer because we live in a sin cursed world due to one act of disobedience by Adam as our representative. Actually, the Apostle Paul blames it on Eve in a way.

Genesis 3

The Fall

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”

And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. - Paul

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 8, 2009

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Yes, I do. Are you familar with the ad hominem fallacy? The mere fact that I'm not a Christian doesn't automatically render what I say invalid.

And I'm sure that if you have the "ability to discern the things of God", you'll be able to put together a half-decent argument to support your position, rather than brushing aside points you don't want to address with excuses that are the effective equivalent of "pffft, I don't have to answer you, heathen."

So... you think I'm "blind". Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. We can't exclude the possibility that I'm correct until you address my points, regardless of your opinion of me as a person or of my beliefs.

Sorry if I have appeared to offended you. It is unintentional. I just try to discern things according to the Bible. Some things in the Bible are completely clear, and some are not so clear. The Bible clearly teaches that spiritual truth is concealed to all mankind until God chooses to reveal truth to certain men for His purpose and His own good pleasure. To ask me to deviate from my undertanding of this truth would be intellectully dishonest. Here's a text from my perspective through the words of Jesus.

Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Then turning to the disciples he said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see! For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”

McBell · Apr 8, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
The Bible clearly teaches that spiritual truth is concealed to all mankind until God chooses to reveal truth to certain men for His purpose and His own good pleasure.

Please present the verse(s) from the Bible that support this claim.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 8, 2009

Mestemia said:
Please present the verse(s) from the Bible that support this claim.

Some of those verses were already posted on this thread. Off-hand, I would have you read John chapter 3, John chapter 6, 1 Cor chapter 1, Ephesians 1-2 for starters. Here are others by the words of Jesus.

The Purpose of the Parables

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Jesus Christ

Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Then turning to the disciples he said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see! For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”

Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. - Jesus Christ

DarkSun · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. - Paul

And Romans 5: 12-15 extrapolates on this as well:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of Original Sin states that we are all born sinners because of the original sin of Adam. But as Romans 5 illustrates, our taint can be overcome by the grace of God. This is paralleled in Buddhism, where the first of the Four Noble Truths states that misdeeds and suffering are an innate part of the human condition which can be overcome. Granted, the key difference between these two explanations for human suffering is that one (Christianity) is theistic/deistic and the other is humanistic. But both religions preach essentially the same thing: that love is the only way to appease human suffering (Matt 19:19).

Moving onto Romans 2:14-16:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So according to this, people who do not know "the law", but nonetheless enact the requirements of "the law", could still potentially be saved.

And yes, there are multiple parallels between Christianity and other world religions:

If we stick with Buddhism as an example, I'll now quote several similarities in doctrine:

Conquer anger by love
Conquer evil by good
Conquer greed by giving
Conquer lies by truth.
Dh 223

“This is my commandment,
that you love one another as I have loved you.
No one has greater love than this,
to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Jn 15.12-13

~*~

“He insulted me! He beat me!
He defeated me! He cheated me!”
By nursing such thoughts
hatred never ends.

“He insulted me! He beat me!
He defeated me! He cheated me!”
By abandoning such thoughts
hatred ends.

For through hatred never does hatred cease
By love alone does it end
This is an eternal law.
Dh 3-5

“Let him with two coats give
to him who has none,
and let whoever has food do likewise.”
Mk 3:11

~*~

[One may be] humble, peaceful, and loving
So long as abuse comes not one’s way
Only when abused is it truly seen
If one is humble, peaceful, and loving.
M 21.10

“Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’”
Mt 9:13

~*~

Brethren, love frees the heart when it is cultivated, increased, deepened, made second nature, made basic, kept in mind, continually practiced, and carried through. The heart freed by love gives eight advantages:
Happy one sleeps with no bad dreams
And happy one awakes.
By humans beloved, to animals dear
Neither fire, poison, nor sword draws near.
And if the highest remains out of reach
A better world is here. A 8.1.1

“But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from one who takes away your coat, do not withhold even your shirt. Give to all who ask of you, and from one who takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. As you wish others do to you, so also do to them.

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even wrongdoers lend to wrongdoers, that they may receive in kind. But love your enemies, do good, and lend hoping for nothing in return. Great will be your reward, and you will be children of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and to the wicked. So be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Lk 6:27-36

~*~

How blessed a thing, dear sir, is it to give!
Indeed, blessed is the gift though from a scanty store. Some from their paltry means bestow their mite, some of their plenty have no wish to give. The offerings given from a scanty source, measured, with gifts of thousand pieces rank.
S 1.4.3

Having sat down opposite the treasury, Jesus watched the multitude putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two mites, which make a penny. He summoned his disciples and said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all gave out of their abundance, but she in her destitution has given everything she had, her whole living.”
Mk 12:41-44

~*~

“A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers who stripped him, inflicted wounds on him, and went away leaving him half dead. It so happened that a certain priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the opposite side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him passed by on the opposite side. Then a traveling Samaritan approached, and seeing him was moved with compassion. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own beast, brought him to an inn and took care of him. On departing the next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper and told him, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you might spend, I’ll reimburse you when I come back.’ Which of these three do you suppose was neighborly to the man who fell among robbers?”
He said, “The one who treated him with compassion.”
Jesus said, “Go, and do likewise.”
Lk 10:30-37

“Suppose a sick and ailing man, grievously ill, were to go along the highway— it might be with no village near ahead or near behind—unable to get proper food, to get proper medicine, to get proper attention, to get a guide to some village boundary; and suppose another man, also going along the road, were to see him; verily it might raise pity in that man, raise compassion, raise commiseration, so that he might say to himself: ‘Alas for this man! He ought to have proper food, proper medicine, proper attention; he ought to have a guide to some village.’ Wherefore? Lest he suffer even here wasting and destruction.
“Just so, sirs, regarding one whose ways are impure, who obtains no mental clarity, mental calm—truly, for such a person pity ought to arise, compassion ought to arise, commiseration ought to arise that prompts one to say to oneself, ‘Alas for this person! He should give up bad habits in act, in speech, in thought, and develop good habits.’ Why? Lest that person on the breaking up of the body, after death, arise in the wayward way, the ill way, the abyss, hell.”1
A 5.17.2

~*~

“The way is hard to go, Exalted One, and rough the path!” “And yet along the path you call rough, O Kamada, the Noble Ones hold their course. In that ‘rough path’ ignoble persons fall headlong, yet to the Noble Ones the way is even.
“Noble Ones walk over the uneven with even stride.”
S 1.2.6

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
Mt 7:13-14

~*~

Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tangibles,2
Yea, all impressions and ideas3 thereof—
These are the direful bait that draws the world,
Therein the world lies infatuated.
If they go beyond all this, leave it behind,
The Buddha’s followers with mind aware
Pass beyond the range of the devil’s might.
Like the glorious sun do they shine
Filling the world with light.
S 1.4.17

“The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Lk 17:20b-21

~*~

“Truly friend, I say to you, that within this very body, mortal as it is and only a fathom high, yet conscious and endowed with mind, is the world, the waxing thereof, the waning thereof, and the way that leads to the passing away thereof.”1
S 1.2.26

“The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.”3
Lk 17:20b-21

Do you see a connection now?

McBell · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
Some of those verses were already posted on this thread. Off-hand, I would have you read John chapter 3, John chapter 6, 1 Cor chapter 1, Ephesians 1-2 for starters. Here are others by the words of Jesus.

Perhaps you misunderstand what is being asked for...
What specific verses clearly "teach that spiritual truth is concealed to all mankind until God chooses to reveal truth to certain men for His purpose and His own good pleasure".

If you cannot present any specific verses, then please just say so.

blackout · Apr 9, 2009

It's funny how Y'shua himself spoke in parables,
and yet how many christians cannot wrap their minds
around the idea of allegorical interpretations,
over (even the most) blatantly ridiculous literal ones.

If perhaps he had been teaching an even DEEPER lesson,
on hearing gOd speak IN/through LIFE itself...
then it was all but a lost cause of a lesson.

Somewhere we got "sola scriptura literalus" "literal bible only" instead.

Except of course when it doesn't say what one wants...
then it's "sola scriptura makituppus as thoust goest allongest".
or "sola scriptura makit sayeth what'it doth'not'st"

MysticSang'ha · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
I'm not sure if I follow you in regards to the link between Christianity and other world religions. Because we cannot deny the existence of suffering and finally death, this does not make Christianity to be compatible with other world religions in regards to suffering, at least the origin and cause of suffering. Here is the Christian worldview on why we suffer and die. We all suffer because we live in a sin cursed world due to one act of disobedience by Adam as our representative. Actually, the Apostle Paul blames it on Eve in a way.

Genesis 3

The Fall

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He said to the woman, Did God actually say, You shall not eat of any tree in the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die. But the serpent said to the woman, You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, Where are you? And he said, I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? The man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate. Then the Lord God said to the woman, What is this that you have done? The woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.

The Lord God said to the serpent,
Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.

To the woman he said,
I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.

And to Adam he said,
Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
You shall not eat of it,
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.

The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. - Paul

What in the world prompted you to inject this interpretation concerning the transgression of Eve when responding to Dark Sun? The story of Eve is completely irrelevant if the discussion is comparing/contrasting the tenets of Christianity and Buddhism.

MysticSang'ha · Apr 9, 2009

DarkSun said:
And Romans 5: 12-15 extrapolates on this as well:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of Original Sin states that we are all born sinners because of the original sin of Adam. But as Romans 5 illustrates, our taint can be overcome by the grace of God. This is paralleled in Buddhism, where the first of the Four Noble Truths states that misdeeds and suffering are an innate part of the human condition which can be overcome. Granted, the key difference between these two explanations for human suffering is that one (Christianity) is theistic/deistic and the other is humanistic. But both religions preach essentially the same thing: that love is the only way to appease human suffering (Matt 19:19).

Moving onto Romans 2:14-16:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So according to this, people who do not know "the law", but nonetheless enact the requirements of "the law", could still potentially be saved.

And yes, there are multiple parallels between Christianity and other world religions:

If we stick with Buddhism as an example, I'll now quote several similarities in doctrine:

Do you see a connection now?

Oh, there are many similarities I, too, find between Christianity and Buddhism - but I admit those are how *I* interpret them. And yet, I can also find aspects that are incompatible with each other. It is a truth that works - for me.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 9, 2009

DarkSun said:
And Romans 5: 12-15 extrapolates on this as well:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of Original Sin states that we are all born sinners because of the original sin of Adam. But as Romans 5 illustrates, our taint can be overcome by the grace of God. This is paralleled in Buddhism, where the first of the Four Noble Truths states that misdeeds and suffering are an innate part of the human condition which can be overcome. Granted, the key difference between these two explanations for human suffering is that one (Christianity) is theistic/deistic and the other is humanistic. But both religions preach essentially the same thing: that love is the only way to appease human suffering (Matt 19:19).

Moving onto Romans 2:14-16:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So according to this, people who do not know "the law", but nonetheless enact the requirements of "the law", could still potentially be saved.

And yes, there are multiple parallels between Christianity and other world religions:

If we stick with Buddhism as an example, I'll now quote several similarities in doctrine:

Do you see a connection now?

Thank you for your post; it was very good! I can see how many see a connection. However, there isn't really a connection if you look at the Christian Faith as a whole. Here is an important text from the Christian perspective. God is love. The only way were able to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, soul, strength, and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves is through God and by God. If I understand it, Buddha was an agnostic who tried to love others through self. So the motive is the same, but the ability to do something is defined through two mutually exclusive sources. IMO... Buddhism is a form of humanism. If humanism leaves out the Creator God in its ideas, then it is a manifestation of the fall in Genesis 3, or simply rebellion against God.

God Is Love

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. - 1 John

Christianity is about the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. I don't see any parallel with this central truth of Christianity with Buddhism or other world religions. Christianity is about God in the flesh, and the person and work of Jesus Christ rescuing fallen humanity to the glory of God. Humanity cannot love others as we are commanded and attempted by others through self because they have severed the source of love through sin and rebellion against God. We are all born into this world in enmity with God. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are in constant rebellion against God who is the perfect moral being who sustains creations by His power and grace. This condition of rebellion is a terminal disease which we have no ability or power to overcome which manifest itself through evil acts (recorded in the paper daily). Therefore, God Himself rescues sinners by sending His Son into this sin cursed world to save a chosen people for Himself for His own glory and His own good pleasure. It is a God-centered act. Buddhism is a self-centered act, or a man-centered attempt to cure the universal condition of fallen humanity manifested in our generations and countries without exception. Buddhism recognizes the problem, but has the same solution like other self religions (forms of humanism) through self. When you look at the bigger picture, do you see why Christianity stands alone in world religions? Buddhism has a savior for the conditon of fallen huamity, and the savior is self. Christianity too has a Savior which is God Himself.

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 9, 2009

MysticSang'ha said:
Oh, there are many similarities I, too, find between Christianity and Buddhism - but I admit those are how *I* interpret them. And yet, I can also find aspects that are incompatible with each other. It is a truth that works - for me.

Your last comment is very interesting: "it is a truth that works for me". I define truth as absolute. Our interpertation of that truth can be subjective which is not really truth. Truth is universal and does not change by the personal views of others.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 9, 2009

UltraViolet said:
It's funny how Y'shua himself spoke in parables,
and yet how many christians cannot wrap their minds
around the idea of allegorical interpretations,
over (even the most) blatantly ridiculous literal ones.

If perhaps he had been teaching an even DEEPER lesson,
on hearing gOd speak IN/through LIFE itself...
then it was all but a lost cause of a lesson.

Somewhere we got "sola scriptura literalus" "literal bible only" instead.

Except of course when it doesn't say what one wants...
then it's "sola scriptura makituppus as thoust goest allongest".
or "sola scriptura makit sayeth what'it doth'not'st"

Please tell me why you think Jesus spoke in parables. And please share how you came to that conclusion. Did it come from your own ideas, or by the words of Jesus Himself? Thank you for the discussion. And by the way, what is a literalist? Jesus told his followers to pluck out our eyes if it caused us to stumble. I still have two eyes after many years of being a Christian. All Christians are sinners in process, who do sin in this life. Most of us do not cut off our hand, foot, or gouge our eyes to prevent us from sinning.

“Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. - Jesus

DarkSun · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
Your last comment is very interesting: "it is a truth that works for me". I define truth as absolute. Our interpertation of that truth can be subjective which is not really truth. Truth is universal and does not change by the personal views of others.

I think that this is where you and I differ in thought. Instead of seeing absolute truths, I merely see truth and lies as a spectrum, where some things are simply more true than others.

My belief is that Christ died for our sins, but I do not believe that His death limited salvation to a mere thirty percent of the world who perceive Him more truly than others.

Would any loving God condemn seventy percent of all people who ever lived to Hell, just for not being Christian? When most of these people had very little choice in what they came to believe, this seems to be a very petty thing to do. And to say that God had no choice but to condemn seventy percent of all people just for a slight difference in belief is to limit His power.

Instead, when I look at scripture like the parable of the Good Samaritan, the time when Jesus talked with a Samaratin women at a well, and various pieces of scripture like Romans 2:14-16, it becomes evident to me that salvation is not limited soley to those who profess belief to the literal stories of the Bible, but that people who adhere to the implied moral value of the Bible have a good chance as well. And since morality is almost identical in virtually all world religions, I would say that the chance is reasonably good for most people.

But who am I to judge? I'll leave that for God to decide. It just seems to me that this is the most logical way to judge someone.

DarkSun · Apr 9, 2009

MysticSang'ha said:
Oh, there are many similarities I, too, find between Christianity and Buddhism - but I admit those are how *I* interpret them. And yet, I can also find aspects that are incompatible with each other. It is a truth that works - for me.

True, if there weren't some differences between religions, then instead of categorising beliefs by their individual names, they would just be called "reality". I admit that there are some differences, but as a whole, the underlying moral message is fairly similar from what I have read.

DarkSun · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
Thank you for your post; it was very good! I can see how many see a connection. However, there isn't really a connection if you look at the Christian Faith as a whole. Here is an important text from the Christian perspective. God is love. The only way were able to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, soul, strength, and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves is through God and by God. If I understand it, Buddha was an agnostic who tried to love others through self. So the motive is the same, but the ability to do something is defined through two mutually exclusive sources.

Again, I refer to Romans 2:14-16 and other Bible references.

Christian Pilgrim said:
IMO... Buddhism is a form of humanism. If humanism leaves out the Creator God in its ideas, then it is a manifestation of the fall in Genesis 3, or simply rebellion against God.

Leaving out the creator through one's personal interpretation of the world is a completely different thing to deliberately rebelling against God. One does not deliberately set out to defy God, while the other does.

Christian Pilgrim said:
God Is Love

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. - 1 John

Well, since love is from God, and many Buddhists, Muslims and Jews et al have the ability to love, then it would seem that God holds no grudge against them.

Christianity is about the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. I don't see any parallel with this central truth of Christianity with Buddhism or other world religions. Christianity is about God in the flesh, and the person and work of Jesus Christ rescuing fallen humanity to the glory of God. Humanity cannot love others as we are commanded and attempted by others through self because they have severed the source of love through sin and rebellion against God. We are all born into this world in enmity with God. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are in constant rebellion against God who is the perfect moral being who sustains creations by His power and grace. This condition of rebellion is a terminal disease which we have no ability or power to overcome which manifest itself through evil acts (recorded in the paper daily). Therefore, God Himself rescues sinners by sending His Son into this sin cursed world to save a chosen people for Himself for His own glory and His own good pleasure. It is a God-centered act. Buddhism is a self-centered act, or a man-centered attempt to cure the universal condition of fallen humanity manifested in our generations and countries without exception. Buddhism recognizes the problem, but has the same solution like other self religions (forms of humanism) through self. When you look at the bigger picture, do you see why Christianity stands alone in world religions? Buddhism has a savior for the conditon of fallen huamity, and the savior is self. Christianity too has a Savior which is God Himself.

True, this is the main difference between Christianity and many other world religions. But is salvation dependant on this difference alone?

Christian Pilgrim said:
Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5

I agree that faith in Christ does help with being saved. But I don't think that is the only criteria, nor do I know if it is the primary one.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 9, 2009

DarkSun said:
Again, I refer to Romans 2:14-16 and other Bible references.

Leaving out the creator through one's personal interpretation of the world is a completely different thing to deliberately rebelling against God. One does not deliberately set out to defy God, while the other does.

Well, since love is from God, and many Buddhists, Muslims and Jews et al have the ability to love, then it would seem that God holds no grudge against them.

True, this is the main difference between Christianity and many other world religions. But is salvation dependant on this difference alone?

I agree that faith in Christ does help with being saved. But I don't think that is the only criteria, nor do I know if it is the primary one.

I am enjoying our peaceful conversation; therefore, thank you. I find it very interesting that many on this site can find parallels with Christianity and other belief systems. I personally have not seen it when we take Christianity as a whole. But I do want to continue to listen to others. I believe biblical Christianity is an offense to those who are not truly a biblical Christian. Even the Scriptures bear this truth. Here's some Scripture.

Not Peace, but a Sword

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. - Jesus
The Hatred of the World

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. - Jesus

But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. - Paul

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - Paul

Do Not Love the World

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. - John

Wisdom from Above
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Christianity is about wisdom from above. Buddhism and humanism is wisdom from within. Jesus Christ is everything to the bibical Christian. The passage below is so central to Christianity

2 Corinthians 4
The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Fatihah · Apr 9, 2009

Christian Pilgrim said:
Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a site where we can discuss religious views in a respectful manner, regardless in what we might personally believe as individuals. I do not believe that Christianity can blend together with other world religions, which makes it hostile to religious pluralism. How exclusive is Christianity, and do you believe the central message of Christianity? If not, what makes your personal view on religion and the supernatural correct?

Response: It depends on what the central message is. If the message is Jesus is God, the Son of God, crucified, part of a trinity, resurrected, or died for our sins, I would have to reject it. I believe in Jesus as a prophet but none of the above should be attributed to him.

My question to the christian world is why do they believe anything of what I mentioned above (the things I mentioned I reject) when even the bible doesn't fully support these teachings? Perhaps you can share your understanding of your view of Jesus with me because when I begin to question other christians on their understanding they never want to share. I noticed this thread before but I never checked it out because everytime I begin to ask questions about christianity, the christians seem to not want to talk anymore. So I am shocked to see a thread actually started by a christian who actually isn't afraid to talk about their religion. So I must commend you for that.

Christian Pilgrim · Apr 9, 2009

Fatihah said:
Response: It depends on what the central message is. If the message is Jesus is God, the Son of God, crucified, part of a trinity, resurrected, or died for our sins, I would have to reject it. I believe in Jesus as a prophet but none of the above should be attributed to him.

My question to the christian world is why do they believe anything of what I mentioned above (the things I mentioned I reject) when even the bible doesn't fully support these teachings? Perhaps you can share your understanding of your view of Jesus with me because when I begin to question other christians on their understanding they never want to share. I noticed this thread before but I never checked it out because everytime I begin to ask questions about christianity, the christians seem to not want to talk anymore. So I am shocked to see a thread actually started by a christian who actually isn't afraid to talk about their religion. So I must commend you for that.

I would love to have this discussion with you. The family is calling me to watch the Friday family movie. Therefore, I will need to continue later. Here's a good place to start by the very words of Jesus. Please answer his question.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” - Matt 16:15

Christianity and religious pluralism

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