Is it ok to "judge" others?

Master Vigil · Apr 26, 2005

I'm sorry, I should have said... Faith does not NECESSARILY equal truth. You can have faith in something that is true, but not everything you have faith in is true necessarily. You have faith that what is written in the bible is true, yet it isn't irrefutable. There is no proof that the metaphysical parts of the bible are true, therefore to even ask whether or not Thomas' faith was truth is based on a HUGE assumption and therefore cannot be necessarily qualified as truth. And please don't call anyone ignorant.

michel · Apr 26, 2005

prosecutor said:
Michel, yes I am judging the four of you. I am using "righteous judgement." Also are you judging me for judging the four of you? Check-mate!

The four of you can "fruball youselves to death" if that makes you happy. However each time you comment on the words "judge" or "faith" you prove me correct about your ignorance. Not one of the four of you understand either term. Making such absurd remarks as "Faith does not equal truth" is a case in point. Bible faith always exist as a result of irrefutable evidences. As a matter of fact "faith" at times refers to the entire truth of the Bible. (Jude 3) You folks seem to think that faith can never exist where something is known to be true. Jesus on one occasion said to Thomas, "......be not faithless, but believing.......Because you have seen me, you have believed.....(John 20:27-29). Question: "Was Thomas' faith removed when he saw Jesus had resurrected (truth) or was it established by the evidence (truth)?
Prosecutor

Sorry, prosecutor, I am NOT judging you - I could perhaps judge you for having called me ignorant , but life's too short; I am merely saying that I don't subscribe to your way of thinking. To JUDGE you would be to say that my beliefs are better than yours, or to think that I am more intelligent than you - and that is something I would never do. I respect your opinions, I just don't think they would 'work' for me.

Lycan · Apr 26, 2005

Michel, yes I am judging the four of you. I am using "righteous judgement." Also are you judging me for judging the four of you? Check-mate!

Being one of the four I would like to answer this question.... a huge resounding YES! But the difference between my judging you and you judging us is that my Gods don't tell me not to. As far as the "righteous judgement", you can call it anything you like it is still judging. You can call a cat "dog", but it is still a cat.

The four of you can "fruball youselves to death" if that makes you happy. However each time you comment on the words "judge" or "faith" you prove me correct about your ignorance. Not one of the four of you understand either term.

What you don't seem to understand is that your definitions and opinions are NOT the be all end all of everyone's spiritual existance.

Making such absurd remarks as "Faith does not equal truth" is a case in point. Bible faith always exist as a result of irrefutable evidences. As a matter of fact "faith" at times refers to the entire truth of the Bible (Jude 3)

Show me this "irrefutable' evidence...

You folks seem to think that faith can never exist where something is known to be true.

No, what we have been trying to get through to you is that what you believe to be truth is not what everyone believes to be truth. In regards to faith, ALL WE HAVE IS OPINION, WHAT WE BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH. Neither one of use can prove the other right or wrong, so your OPINION is no more or less valid than ours when it comes to faith.

Jesus on one occasion said to Thomas, "......be not faithless, but believing.......Because you have seen me, you have believed.....(John 20:27-29). Question: "Was Thomas' faith removed when he saw Jesus had resurrected (truth) or was it established by the evidence (truth)?

The above is pointless to someone that does not believe in the bible.

Pah · Apr 26, 2005

prosecutor said:
Michel, yes I am judging the four of you. I am using "righteous judgement." Also are you judging me for judging the four of you? Check-mate!

The four of you can "fruball youselves to death" if that makes you happy. However each time you comment on the words "judge" or "faith" you prove me correct about your ignorance. Not one of the four of you understand either term. Making such absurd remarks as "Faith does not equal truth" is a case in point. Bible faith always exist as a result of irrefutable evidences. As a matter of fact "faith" at times refers to the entire truth of the Bible. (Jude 3) You folks seem to think that faith can never exist where something is known to be true. Jesus on one occasion said to Thomas, "......be not faithless, but believing.......Because you have seen me, you have believed.....(John 20:27-29). Question: "Was Thomas' faith removed when he saw Jesus had resurrected (truth) or was it established by the evidence (truth)?
Prosecutor

The only known claim to spiritual truth in the Bible is personal revelation - not dogma - not the words of leaders - not the traditions and history - not even the words themselves. God must reveal the truth to you. And that, revealtion, is one of the poorest criteria of truth there is. It equates to a hunch but has a named source instead of whole cloth imagination. It's a personal truth and the number of people holding that personal truth does not make it more true.

Is it now a "gang of five" or am I honored to be amongst the four?

Shadow Wolf · Apr 26, 2005

Not one of the four of you understand either term

To judge is to form an opinion of something, usually in a negative manner. Calling the four of us ignorant because we don't share the same believes is a good example.
Faith is to have confidence in something. Confidence that a particular diety or god exist, confidence someone or something can perform a certain task, etc. You have confidence the Christian god is real, I have confidence the gods I believe in are real.

I am judging the four of you. I am using "righteous judgement

Isn't God the only righteous one in the Christian religion?

Also are you judging me for judging the four of you?

No, I wanted to "judge" you, I would say something like, "You are a very ingnorant person for calling others ignorant because they believe in a different religion."

Bible faith always exist as a result of irrefutable evidences.

Yes, please show us this evidence.

the entire truth of the Bible.

A fact no one can argue is that man's hand wrote the Bible. So to say the entire Bible is true is to say that the hundreds who wrote it and translated it were 100% honest, and weren't effected by human emotions such as greed.
Also, alot of Bible stories are based on stories from other religions that pre-date the jewish religion. The earliest recorded global flood was Gilgamesh, which is much older than Noah and the Ark.
Also I have watched TV shows that supposedly say that the ark has been found, but is it the real ark? This takes faith to believe it is, but the most common answer is no. Like the Taurin Shrowd, there is much evidence to disprove it.

michel · Apr 26, 2005

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to pah again.

:banghead3

BUDDY · Apr 26, 2005

Luke Wolf said:
To judge is to form an opinion of something, usually in a negative manner.

I have to disagree. If a judgement is righteous, it is not necessarily negative. The term righteous judgement can be used regardless of a religious believe. We all make judgements every day based on information that we collect with our senses. The Biblical judgement that people make occurs when we formulate an opinion about a person or group of people involved with a biblical principal. This is when a righteous judgement is needed, for if are to judge unrighteously (or according to wrong evidence, or with a personal genda - basically anyway that is incorrect) we are guilty of sinning against our brother. I don't think it is wrong to judge people, in fact it is something that we are instructed to do, but we have to be careful and have all the information before forming an opinion. Also, once that opinion or judgement is formed, we are also instructed to go to that person and talk to them about it.

As far as whether or not unrighteous judgement is going on here, I have to warn my brother, prosecutor, that to judge in your mind and talk to people about it is one thing. To tell those whom you disagree with that they are ignorant borders on something totally different. I would suiggest not talking to unbelievers of christianity about the principles of the Bible, when you are not practicing them yourself. I think an apology is needed and soon.

Lycan · Apr 26, 2005

This is when a righteous judgement is needed, for if are to judge unrighteously (or according to wrong evidence, or with a personal genda - basically anyway that is incorrect) we are guilty of sinning against our brother.

What judgement is not based on personal agenda???

BUDDY · Apr 26, 2005

Lycan said:
What judgement is not based on personal agenda???

Well, I would say that a judgement that is intended to have an outcome of helping others is the correct kind of judgement. That would certainly not be driven by a personal agenda. I think that a righteous judgement is needed in order to protect a person whose actions may do harm to themselves and to others. For instance, a few years ago I had a suspicion that my sister was in trouble. She would act very weird, lock herself in her room for hours, things would go missing from the house, she would always wear long sleeve shirts (even though it was 100+ degrees outside) etc. I decided after a time to confront her about it and tell her my suspicions. Turns out she was on heroin and had been for a couple of months. She is now clean and has been able to stay that way for about three years. Or, what if you knew someone with a drinking problem. You observe there habits and make ajudgement that they need help and confront them on it. You have made a judgment on your friend because you care about them. These are all possitive things that come from our ability to make righteous judgement. I think that is what it is designed to be. Hopefully more people will see and use it that way.

Shadow Wolf · Apr 26, 2005

If a judgement is righteous...

I wasn't refering to a "righteous" judgement, just an everyday judgement, such as "He is an idiot for doing it this way."
Prosecutor said I must not understand the word judgement, so I was giving a brief definition on what I think it means.

Lycan · Apr 27, 2005

Well, I would say that a judgement that is intended to have an outcome of helping others is the correct kind of judgement.

Regardless of intent or what you name it, judgement is hold someone/something to a set of standards. If I judge you, I am simply saying that you don't live up to my standards. "Righteous" judgement just means I don't live up to your religious standards. So no matter how much you think you are helping, it is still out of personal agenda, if nothing but to be able say you helped.

prosecutor · Apr 27, 2005

Why does the word "ignorant" bother any of you? One of the meanings of this word is "showing a lack of knowledge, not knowing about." (Webester New World Dictionary) If some of you would get your feelings off your shoulder and pay more attention to what is said instead of trying to pass judgment on me for how something is said, perhaps then you could at least make some form of rational statement. If you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, so be it. However stop trying to tell me what the Bible says. It is not a matter of my being better than any of you. The fact of this discussion is that none of you come anywhere close to my understanding of that Book. That is not an opinion nor is it self-righteousness. It is a fact. This entire discussion was set in motion about the meaning of "judging" as found in Matthew 7. All this talk about "proving the Bible to the the Word of God" is not a part of this discussion. What you five (sorry I left you out, Pah) need to do is to show that the Bible is not consistent when it discusses the word "judge." This has not been done as of yet. I have proven that the word "judge" is used in the Bible in different ways. Thus no contradiction exist as has been charged.
Prosecutor

Lycan · Apr 27, 2005

The fact of this discussion is that none of you come anywhere close to my understanding of that Book. That is not an opinion nor is it self-righteousness. It is a fact.

That my friend is what we are talking about... You are not the exclusive authority when it comes to understanding the bible. And yes it is your opinion.

Master Vigil · Apr 27, 2005

The fact of this discussion is that none of you come anywhere close to my understanding of that Book. That is not an opinion nor is it self-righteousness. It is a fact.

And the fact of my discussion is that you do not come anywhere close to my understanding of the spirit world, and how it trumps your understanding of that book. This is not an opinion, nor is it self-righteous. It is fact.

Now, why does your claim hold any more weight than mine? It doesn't, you know why??? They are both OPINIONS!!!!!!!!

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 28, 2005

prosecutor said:
Master Vigil, You don't believe in Christ so heaven will never be a place you will occupy. As far as your praise of Pah, well.........
Prosecutor

This sounds very much like judgement. How are you to know that God does not have a seat for MV. He 'believes' in Jesus, and his teachings. However, he does not worship Jesus as a God, which is what Christianity has done.

Shadow Wolf · May 1, 2005

Really, how do any off us know if god "has a seat for us?" We don't. I've heard stories of people who have talked with spirits. The spirits told the people that they were following the right path. So if this is true, then all paths must be the right one, and god/goddess has a seat for everyone.

prosecutor · May 3, 2005

I have never made the claim of being the exclusive authority on anything. The Bible is the exclusive authority. I'm still wating for the proof that I am wrong on what I have written about judging as taught in the Bible. Deal with the subject.

What "spirit world"? I do know about "the human spirit" and "the Holy Spirit" . So there!

"Master Vigil believes in Jesus and his teachings"? Where have you been "enhanced spirit"? He neither believes Jesus to be the Son of God nor that He resurrected from the dead. Jesus taught both. As a matter of fact in another thread MV said he believed Jesus was a good man but that he did not resurrect from the dead. I pointed out that He could not have been a good man if He did not raise from the dead because He said that He would and did. Thus He would have been a liar.
That shut MV up on the subject.
Prosecutor

EnhancedSpirit · May 3, 2005

EEWRED said:
Well, I would say that a judgement that is intended to have an outcome of helping others is the correct kind of judgement. That would certainly not be driven by a personal agenda. I think that a righteous judgement is needed in order to protect a person whose actions may do harm to themselves and to others. For instance, a few years ago I had a suspicion that my sister was in trouble. She would act very weird, lock herself in her room for hours, things would go missing from the house, she would always wear long sleeve shirts (even though it was 100+ degrees outside) etc. I decided after a time to confront her about it and tell her my suspicions. Turns out she was on heroin and had been for a couple of months. She is now clean and has been able to stay that way for about three years. Or, what if you knew someone with a drinking problem. You observe there habits and make ajudgement that they need help and confront them on it. You have made a judgment on your friend because you care about them. These are all possitive things that come from our ability to make righteous judgement. I think that is what it is designed to be. Hopefully more people will see and use it that way.

You did not pass judgement against your sister. You made an observation. You saw that she was doing something that would hurt her self and others, and you acted like a 'good samaritan' and helped her. This is not judgement, you have described the act of making observations.

It is rather clear that we are told to not judge others. But we are suppossed to make choices between what is right or wrong for ourselves.

Master Vigil · May 3, 2005

What "spirit world"? I do know about "the human spirit" and "the Holy Spirit" . So there!

Exactly my point, you understand nothing.

"Master Vigil believes in Jesus and his teachings"? Where have you been "enhanced spirit"? He neither believes Jesus to be the Son of God nor that He resurrected from the dead. Jesus taught both. As a matter of fact in another thread MV said he believed Jesus was a good man but that he did not resurrect from the dead. I pointed out that He could not have been a good man if He did not raise from the dead because He said that He would and did. Thus He would have been a liar.
That shut MV up on the subject.
Prosecutor

I never remember you saying that to me, nor it shutting me up. Because I would have simply said that you have no idea what Jesus said, he never wrote anything down. you only know what other people said Jesus said. Which is heresay, and would be inadmissable in court. And please, how could Jesus not be a good man, and lie. I know many good, even great men and women who have lied. Everybody lies. I believe Jesus' teachings on love, and forgiveness are what really matter. Why? Because they promote goodness. And judgement only promote selfishness, greed, and ignorance. Please, be a good christian, and promote goodness.

Pah · May 3, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
You did not pass judgement against your sister. You made an observation. You saw that she was doing something that would hurt her self and others, and you acted like a 'good samaritan' and helped her. This is not judgement, you have described the act of making observations.

It is rather clear that we are told to not judge others. But we are suppossed to make choices between what is right or wrong for ourselves.

Judgement is putting values on observation. That is definitional but I don't know how it applies to the illustration you reference.

Is it ok to "judge" others?

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