Faith, not Reason

Deut. 3.28 posted this in another thread:

I have discussed evolution and 'Young Earth Creationism' with more than a few Orthodox Jews, and one explanation raised by them seems air-tight: slightly less that 6,000 years ago HaShem created the world, replete with geological strata, apparently old fossils, and all the other purported evidence brought to bare against the Scriptures. He did so to force the Jewish people to choose Torah, not because it is 'reasonable', but because it is HaShem'S word.

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I am curious if any scholars out there know of any Biblical passages that relate to this idea of God testing our faith by having us disregard reason.

atofel said:

I am curious if any scholars out there know of any Biblical passages that relate to this idea of God testing our faith by having us disregard reason.

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Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Matthew 16:8

Parenthetically, it seems only fair to add that this self-serving confection is but one instance of a class of air-tight 'explanations', including the suggestion that an indifferent and cynical God provided the Bible and similar substandard fiction as a quick-and-dirty means of monitoring the extent to which His creation continues to waste, and otherwise abuse, its 'God-given' capacity for reason.

atofel said:

I am curious if any scholars out there know of any Biblical passages that relate to this idea of God testing our faith by having us disregard reason.

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I'm curious as to why you are so quick to seek a reason to abandon reason.

atofel said:

I am curious if any scholars out there know of any Biblical passages that relate to this idea of God testing our faith by having us disregard reason.

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Let me get this straight - you are asking if there is some Biblical reference for disavowing our ability to reason?
In other words, if such a passage can be found, the argument will be:
The Bible says that if you use your mind to rationally determine what is right, you are in error.

Is my paraphrasing of your question correct?

Thanks,
TVOR

Why would God give us reason only to spite it?

there are Biblical passages that urge followers not to seek knowledge, to be "childlike".
There are passages that actually berate intellectual thought.

There are also passages that tell followers to find the truth whatever it takes but then, thats how the Bible is.

Not Biblical but I found some very interesting quotes...

"Reason is the greatest enemy faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God."
Martin Luther

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason"
Martin Luther

"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden underfoot and destroyed, she and her wisdom...Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism...she would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."
Martin Luther

"There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason...Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed."
Martin Luther

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathameticians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of hell."
St. Augustine

"It is lawful then, to him that discusses, disputes, and preaches of things eternal, or to him that narrates of things temporal pertaining to religion or piety, to conceal at fitting times whatever seems fit to be concealed."
St. Augustine

"We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie."
Catholic encyclical X, 195

"The Roman Church has never erred, nor will it err to all eternity. No one may be considered a Catholic Christian who does not agree with the Catholic Church. No book is authoritative unless it has recieved the papal sanction."
Pope Gregory VII, from the Dictatus

"Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will accept whatever the church teaches."
St. Thomas Aquinas

"After Jesus we have no need of speculation, after the gospels we have no need of research. When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe anything else; for we begin by believing that there is nothing else with which we have to believe...My first principle is this: Christ laid down one definite system of truth which the world must believe without qualification."
Tertulian

"Without Christ, sciences in every department are vain...The man who knows not God is vain, though he should be conversant with every branch of learning. Nay more, we may affirm this too with truth, that these choice gifts of God - expertness of mind, acuteness of judgement, liberal sciences, and acquaintance with language, are in a manner profaned in every instance in which they fall to the lot of wicked men."
John Calvin

"To arrive at the truth of all things, we ought always be ready to believe that what seems to us white is black if the heirarchical church defines it so."
Ignatius Loyola, Spirtual Excercises, 1548

"It would be good for religion if many books that seem useful were destroyed. When there were not so many books and not so many arguments and disputes, religion grew more quickly than it has since."
Girolomo Savonarola

If we should give up either religion or education, we should give up education.
William Jennings Bryan


Not Biblical but definately authorative.
I`ll find the Biblical in awhile.

Deut said:

I'm curious as to why you are so quick to seek a reason to abandon reason.

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On the contrary, I have always held 'reason' as a virtue and the original quote caught me off guard because I never expected a condition in which I would have to choose between faith and reason. It has always been my intention to marry the two. His position is contrary to mine, so I was curious if there is a Biblical precedent for his position or not. I suppose I felt compelled to check because I sensed a strong conviction towards God in his attitude.

TVOR said:

Let me get this straight - you are asking if there is some Biblical reference for disavowing our ability to reason?
In other words, if such a passage can be found, the argument will be:
The Bible says that if you use your mind to rationally determine what is right, you are in error.

Is my paraphrasing of your question correct?

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Perhaps it would be more precise to ask whether we should disregard reason which is based on physical evidence or experience (something we would both agree is unreasonable) in favor of faith, and under what circumstances.

atofel said:

Deut. 3.28 posted this in another thread:


I am curious if any scholars out there know of any Biblical passages that relate to this idea of God testing our faith by having us disregard reason.

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I am certainly no Biblical scholar anything but; however, I do believe that God demands the unquestioning faith of his followers. Of course, that is my interpretation............

I definately agree. However, my question is whether we should expect our faith to be tested in this manner. For example, I would not expect that I would encounter a situation in which I ought to disregard charity or courage because of my faith.

I'm reminded of a couple of quotes:

"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them."

"...nothing physical which sense-experience sets before our eyes, or which necessary demonstrations prove to us, ought to be called into question (much less condemned) upon the testimony of biblical passages."

~Galileo Galilei

atofel said:

However, my question is whether we should expect our faith to be tested in this manner.

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There is zero basis to have any expectation of a supernatural diety.

The beginning of knowledge is the admittance of ignorance.

God has never asked us to check in our brains to believe in him.

He does suggest that he might understand us, our universe and the truth a bit better than we do.

The one who is truly wise knows where their knowledge ends and their faith in God begins.

linwood-- I'm not sure when he said it, but I found the quote at this website which cites Blind Watchers of the Sky.

"And being not weak in faith, Abraham considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb."


God had told Abraham He was going to give him seed and Abraham said, "Sara is not doing so well" So for many years he used reason and tried to figure out how he could help fulfill God's promise. At last Abraham got around to believing that what God said he meant.

"Abraham staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God"

"And being fully persuaded* that, what God had promised, God was able also to perform."

*key verse that faith isn't just a mental process abandoning reason. It is complete persuasion. Believing, in the Word of God, is being convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt even if you never see it come to pass. That is truely having faith. Some of the above posters are way off. If God appeared unto them, they would check themselves into a hospital. The experience would crush their reason heavy minds.

true blood said:

.. Some of the above posters are way off. If God appeared unto them, they would check themselves into a hospital. The experience would crush their reason heavy minds.

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Are you referring to me?

TVOR