Pacifism: Noble or Foolish?

Majikthise · Mar 14, 2005

Mr_Spinkles said:
Unless I am mistaken, that was Thomas Jefferson you have quoted in the body of your post, Majikthise. You really should indicate it when you quote people.

Sorry.

It's actually right out of the Declaration of Independence.

Mr Spinkles · Mar 15, 2005

Oh.

:bonk:

Mercury · Mar 17, 2005

sorry for the confusion kiwiman. what i meant by might is right is that the strongest make the rules. the strongest get that way by proving their power. war is a universal language anyone can understand when proving one's power. human's love power - and war is a means to an end.

Dr. Nosophoros · Mar 22, 2005

On one hand I defend pacifism, yet on the other I abhor it, there are limits. Overall I abhor it, pacifism is no excuse for reluctance to defend what is naturally yours or what is seen as naturally right.

Mr Spinkles · Mar 22, 2005

Dr. Nosophoros said:
Overall I abhor it, pacifism is no excuse for reluctance to defend what is naturally yours or what is seen as naturally right.

I've often thought, though, Dr. Nosophoros...people don't seem all that reluctant to fight. In fact, most people are more than willing to fight, sometimes for no good reason. It seems to me that the noble person resists this natural eagerness to fight (even if this eagerness is justified) in the name of something higher. I don't think, for example, that those who marched with Martin Luther King, Jr refused to fight back when they were attacked because they were afraid to fight back. I think, rather, that it probably takes more courage not to fight back.

Scuba Pete · Mar 22, 2005

War is most certainly NEVER justified.

I say that so easily, but if you touch my wife or kids, we are going to dance. One of us will not get up.

Honestly, we have a defense mechanism built into us. ESPECIALLY when it comes to those we love. I have been hit before and not retaliated. No biggie... it's only pain. But don't even THINK about inflicting any on my wife or kids.

I honestly feel that America has the soveriegn right to wage war. It is legal for our government to do so. However, some of these wars seem to originate from less than honorable motives (Vietnam and Iraq). We need to have the courage to speak out against the wrong motives, but we always need to be respectful of those we employ to fight our wars. They are being asked to do something which we have niether the stomach nor inclination to prosecute.

almifkhar · Mar 22, 2005

pacifism is a good thing, but sometimes you have to be agressive for example if someone harmed your children. as far as war goes, i don't see it as a justifiable thing simply because the majority who die or get injured and suffer are the innocents.

Doc · Mar 26, 2005

I agree that it is almost impossible to ever know when war is right or wrong.

A lot of the times turning the other cheek is a very wise thing. But that would not have stopped Hitler and the ranks of the Nazis.

On the other hand, non-violence has prevailed in the past. Such things as the bloody Sepoy Rebellion in India was not enough to defeat the British, but Gandhi's passive resistance and non-violence nearly bankrupted the British East India Company and eventually India was granted self-rule

So choosing to go to war is the simple part but having the wisdom of when to go to war is the most important.

Prima · Mar 28, 2005

Is pacifism noble or foolish...

A resounding "BOTH!"

It's noble, yes. It's noble in the way that having a fair fight is noble. It's a great idea, and a wonderful ideal, but it makes you lose! We can say that fighting is bad, but it just means that we get beat up more easily.

The only way it would work is if everyone was capable of it. But we're humanm we make mistakes. At some point someone would lose their temper and everything would go to hell again.

So yes, it's noble. And it's a good ideal to work towards. But in real life, it just doesn't work.

Nick Soapdish · Mar 28, 2005

Whether we like it or not, there are people in this world who are ruined men, willing to destroy others to impose their own wants. It is not by our choice that such tyrants exist.

I believe it is a virtuous thing for people who are able to stop such oppressors to attempt to do so. If it can be done without violence then it should be. However, to duck away from such confrontation as if the risk of injury to yourself or the tyrant is more important than the oppression and misery of a large population is not entirely admirable.

With regards to the "turn the other cheek" phrase, the idea of getting slapped in the face is more in reference to a public display of insult or belittlement. I believe it has a lot to do with getting into fights for personal pride or prestige and very little with the idea of fighting on behalf of others.

mahayana · Apr 26, 2005

I am a long-time pacifist. Filed my request for conscientious objector status in 1968 (in response to being drafted), on religious grounds. I think there is some confusion in this thread between pacifism (a stance on the correctness of wars between nations) and passive-ism (personal non-violence).

Those speaking for pacifism are a tiny minority, and their politics are widely disparate. I'd suggest reading Bertrand Russell to get an overview of this philosophy.

For the religious side, consider how to achieve this vision-

"And they shall beat their swords into plowshares; the lions shall lie down with the lambs; and they shall study war no more."

Melody · Apr 26, 2005

Dr. Nosophoros said:
On one hand I defend pacifism, yet on the other I abhor it, there are limits. Overall I abhor it, pacifism is no excuse for reluctance to defend what is naturally yours or what is seen as naturally right.

Pacifism is not a "reluctance to defend". It is a deliberate act of nonresistance.

Ori · Apr 26, 2005

The best way to look at its rewards and/or repurcussions is to look at what Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X achieved independantly.

Lycan · Apr 26, 2005

Well being of the unpopular opinion.....

I will fight to the death for my family, my home, my friends, and my honor. I am not a violent person. I do not "pick" fights. I do however believe in doing whatever I need to do to make sure the above mentioned are safe and well. The idea of pacifism is not noble in my opinion because I don't feel it takes courage to sit on your butt and watch your world be destroyed. To die in the protection of another is the most noble, selfless act anyone can do IMHO.

michel · Apr 26, 2005

Lycan said:
Well being of the unpopular opinion.....

I will fight to the death for my family, my home, my friends, and my honor. I am not a violent person. I do not "pick" fights. I do however believe in doing whatever I need to do to make sure the above mentioned are safe and well. The idea of pacifism is not noble in my opinion because I don't feel it takes courage to sit on your butt and watch your world be destroyed. To die in the protection of another is the most noble, selfless act anyone can do IMHO.

I agree with you Lycan, I do consider myself a pacifist, but I would defend ANYONE I see being abused - not just my family. To me, -dictionary definition notwithstanding - pacifism is 'Not looking for a fight'.

Ori · Apr 26, 2005

I'm a christian, or at least try to be of much of one as I can. I am a pacifist to a degree, however, if someone tried to murder one of my family members I would have no hesitation in killing them first, but if I was the one attempting to be killed I would probably let them.
I don't know if that makes me a bad person, I can only do what I feel is right.

Pacifism can be both noble and foolish, let people trod all over you and it will never end, but you can go too far pushing people away in defence.

Maxist · Mar 5, 2006

Pure paficism is foolish. However, there must be some degree of Pacfism in my mind. Of coarse war is justifiable at many times. If, say, you were being oppressed it would be very much justified`

Pacifism: Noble or Foolish?

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