Logical 10 Commandments

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 21, 2005

Every church I have ever visited was run as a business. This is why I stay away. It's all about money and power. This is a mock correspondence that might have occurred sometime in history, between some group leaders.

Date: Some / Day / About 5,000 Years Ago
RE: Close-quarters Community Living Transition
Dear Brother of the Ruling Class,
Now that we are no longer nomadic hunters and gathers, and we are going to live in one spot in relatively close proximity to one another, let us agree on some guidelines for living so close together and in such a big group.

6 - Let's not kill each other. However, in time of war against us, let's kill the enemy.
7 - Let's not mess around with each other's wife or husband (mate). Doing so would cause a lot of trouble and disharmony in a small community such as ours.
8 - Let's not steal anything from each other. This would also cause a lot of trouble and hard feelings in a small community such as ours.
9 - Let's discourage lying about each other. Someone might tell lies about you or me; especially since you and I have so much wealth and the rest of our people have so very little.
10 - And, speaking on this topic of disproportionate wealth, let's discourage our people from coveting what you and I have.
5 - We are going to need each set of parents to pass down these guidelines so let's make sure the children respect what their parents tell them to do.
4 - We need a day, on an ongoing basis, to drill the community about these guidelines so they don't forget and so that these guidelines become a habit they automatically adhere to. How about every seventh day? This will also give them a break in their routine and give them a chance to get to know their neighbors.
3 - 2 - 1 Finally, these poor saps that we lead, and who make us wealthy, only let us get away with this because we've told them that some big-*** god has given you and I these positions of luxury and authority. And, we've also told them that if they have a problem with this arrangement that this same big-*** god will light them on fire for eternity. It occurs to me that we should figure out a way to keep them from inventing and worshiping some other god and that they should respect the one that you and me have told them about.
I'd like us to be able to keep and enjoy as much of our wealth and life of luxury as possible. Anytime there is civil unrest or disobedience, it's going to cost you and me some of our wealth and time away from our life of luxury to take care of the problem. The better you can convince the community to adopt these guidelines, the better off you and I will be in the long run. I've tentatively numbered these guidelines in an order that I thought might be best.

Lastly and most importantly, we need to be able to justify this new idea of yours of "Land Ownership." Since no one in authority is around here to give it to us or sell it to us, we are going to have to convince the people that some spook, spirit, god, or ghost, granted it to us to manage; otherwise you and me are really ****ed.

Sincerely,
Your Group Leader
c.c. The Ruling Class members

The following letter might have been sent out to the working class.

Memo

From: the Ruling Class

To: the Worker Bee

Date: 6,500 BCE

My Dear Worker Bee,

Do not be concerned with how difficult your life is, making us wealthy, or how we deceived you into creating wealth for us to fulfill our selfish greed and desires, for we promise you that there is a heavenly paradise for you to live in forever, once you have finished working your sorry-*** off for us.

By the way, have we mentioned how bad and sinful you are today? You should go to the Temple-Church and repent as soon as possible, and ask for forgiveness. Be sure to pay a tithing while you are there confessing your sins; and be sure to use the latest definitions of sin that we gave you, which will change on occasion to fit our wealth-generating strategic needs, regardless our your needs.

In the future, don't be overly concerned about losing your natural skills for (1) hunting and gathering food to feed yourself, (2) building yourself a shelter, (3) finding your own water source, (4) or getting rid of your waste products. We will be launching a new campaign to make you more dependent on us by (1) building grocery stores so that you will have to buy food from us (because we will own all the land -making it impossible for you to hunt and gather food on your own), (2) building ready made homes that you will have to buy from us, along with the land that the home sits on, (3) building water treatment plants so that you will have to buy drinking water from us, (4) building waste treatment plants so that you will have to pay us to get rid of your waste products. I almost forgot, we will also be convincing you that these are all modern conveniences; all you have to do is come up with the money to pay us for it all, including the taxes.

Since you will no longer be working to hunt and gather your own food, you will be working for us in the future. The distance between your home and your place of work will be a significant distance, making it impossible for you to get to work, on time, by just walking. It is my understanding that there will be something called an "automobile" invented, that you will be able to buy from us to get you to work on time, so that you will be able to earn enough money to pay for everything we have mentioned earlier. This "automobile" will require a type of fuel which will be called "gasoline," which you will also have to buy from us; including the required accessories, such as license plates and "automobile" insurance.

This should complete the major portion of our strategic plan for you to become completely dependent upon us. Next week we will send you a memo concerning some other "need-to-buy" items coming in the future that will be called health care, prescription drugs, health insurance, and life insurance.

With love, affection, and sincere concern for your well-being,

The Ruling Class

The ironic and the ingenious thing about this Ruling Class model (scheme), is that the same model used to train Worker Bees, was adopted by the Worker Bees as an essential human need; therefore they were unwilling to give it up. In essence, the Ruling Class had created an addiction to the very model that oppressed the Worker Bees in the first place.

michel · Apr 21, 2005

I'm no great church-goer, but I think that's a tad judgemental.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 21, 2005

I do not mean to sound judgemental. It's only an observation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I am one of the worker bees, from a long family of worker bees. But I also know several of the Ruling Class, and do not judge them, I can not place blame on any one, this is just the way things worked out. I could not see the forest through the trees until I stepped back and looked at the bigger picture.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 21, 2005

I know longer live as a worker bee for man. I seek wisdom and help others. I pay my bills and feed my children, but I do not work a 9 to 5 job. I spread the Lord's truth and he provides me with what I need, not the government, and not the church.

robtex · Apr 21, 2005

So enhancedspirt if I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the denotation of the 10 commandments is different than the connotation. Is this correct? If so, starting with the first one you listed..# 6. You said, " Lets not kill each other. But in times of war against us lets kill the enemy." I am understand the that many Christians translate that commandment as thou shall not murder as opposed to thou shall not kill.

But saying it is thou shall not kill ...and a christian nation or settlement is invaded by others..irregardless of the purpose of that invasion. Upon upholding their interpretation of the 6th to say thou shall not kill..they do not defend the attack but attempt to flee. The children and weaker elderly cannot flee and are slaughtered. Did the stronger members of that society help the invaders kill their elderly and children by not resisting (assuming they could) or did they obey their lord Jesus by not killing?

Is it reasonable for a believer to say there is never a reason to kill, even in self defense or is the context of the 10 commandments a backdrop for an alternate intrepretation ? In the book of exodus as in the rest of the torah God and man both kill side by side from the red sea to the wars of the holy lands the holy wars are raged and God seems pleased. Even Moses, who held the tablets in his very hands kills a man the very first time he is read about in the Bible.

I would contend that

a) killing is not always avoidable and as such the absolute interpretation of the commandment does not hold

b) God and man killed side by side through the torah suggesting in context, "that man shall not kill" was on many levels contingent as opposed to absolute.

anders · Apr 22, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
Every church I have ever visited was run as a business.

In a Church of Sweden parish, matters of finance are discussed in public once a year, when the budget is established. I find no similarities at all with businesses. A business needs to find customers to get money. Not the CoS. The fundings are automatic and relayed via the taxation system. Rather funny, because we have a strict state-church separation (although there might still be a paragraph on the Sovereign's faith).

The products of the CoS, like services, are normally advertised, but this constitutes just a cost, not resulting in income of any kind. Nothing like business there.

I don't know how things are managed in " Free Churches", like Pentecostals and Baptists, of which I think there are a few in Sweden. In any case, they should receive a Church tax like the CoS, RC and Muslims, based on members.

And from my Swedish perspective, I just don't understand

EnhancedSpirit said:
It's all about money and power.

What power? Certainly not any in any legal or administrative sense. The only religious power I can think of here is when a group of Jewish intellectuals and sympathizers managed to have Yiddish acknowledged as a minority language in Sweden, despite its not fulfilling the EU criteria. Another example, rather PC than religious, was when efforts to ban genital mutilation of boys below the age of possible informed consent were thwarted. But we prohibit the docking of puppy dogs' tails!

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 22, 2005

robtex said:
So enhancedspirt if I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the denotation of the 10 commandments is different than the connotation. Is this correct? If so, starting with the first one you listed..# 6. You said, " Lets not kill each other. But in times of war against us lets kill the enemy." I am understand the that many Christians translate that commandment as thou shall not murder as opposed to thou shall not kill.

But saying it is thou shall not kill ...and a christian nation or settlement is invaded by others..irregardless of the purpose of that invasion. Upon upholding their interpretation of the 6th to say thou shall not kill..they do not defend the attack but attempt to flee. The children and weaker elderly cannot flee and are slaughtered. Did the stronger members of that society help the invaders kill their elderly and children by not resisting (assuming they could) or did they obey their lord Jesus by not killing?

Is it reasonable for a believer to say there is never a reason to kill, even in self defense or is the context of the 10 commandments a backdrop for an alternate intrepretation ? In the book of exodus as in the rest of the torah God and man both kill side by side from the red sea to the wars of the holy lands the holy wars are raged and God seems pleased. Even Moses, who held the tablets in his very hands kills a man the very first time he is read about in the Bible.

I would contend that

a) killing is not always avoidable and as such the absolute interpretation of the commandment does not hold

b) God and man killed side by side through the torah suggesting in context, "that man shall not kill" was on many levels contingent as opposed to absolute.

First, the 10 commandments came before the Christian. And it is not just the Christians who have started wars in the name of God.
And I see that as a condradiction. Thou shall not kill.
That's what the commandment says. There is no "except".

And let me ask you this; did Jesus defend himself, did he fight for his life? No, Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. But men who claim to be religious, claim to follow God, ignore even his 10 simple rules. Even if you have not been in a war yourself. What you think matters, and anyone who 'thinks' it's OK to go to war is just as guilty in the eyes of God as a murderer.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 22, 2005

What power? Certainly not any in any legal or administrative sense.

I don't know of any one in a Higher position in society that doesn't feel a sense of Power. And this is set for 1000's of years ago, and today is the byproduct of those actions. We are all in a position to be dependent on our government for health care, child care, public schools, social security for the elderly. Of course this is only the point of view of a US citizen.

Also, all of the religious crusades of the past were about power. You can't say that all the people who were killed for not converting to christianity were killed for their own good. No they were killed by power hungry people wanting to control the people and used the name of God and his son to do so.

jewscout · Apr 22, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
First, the 10 commandments came before the Christian. And it is not just the Christians who have started wars in the name of God.
And I see that as a condradiction. Thou shall not kill.
That's what the commandment says. There is no "except".

that's funny i always thought is was "Thou shalt not Murder"

EnhancedSpirit said:
And let me ask you this; did Jesus defend himself, did he fight for his life? No, Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. But men who claim to be religious, claim to follow God, ignore even his 10 simple rules. Even if you have not been in a war yourself. What you think matters, and anyone who 'thinks' it's OK to go to war is just as guilty in the eyes of God as a murderer.

interesting you should bring this up...

New Living Translation said:
And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.' Luke 19:27

New Living Translation said:
For I, the Son of Man, must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for my betrayer. Far better for him if he had never been born!" Matthew 26:24

that's kinda harsh for someone who loves their enemy...

and my personal favorite...jesus telling those Jews who do not believe in him are not children of Abraham but of the devil

New Living Translation said:
Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why can't you understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to do so! 44 For you are the children of your father the Devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

mmmm feel the love

robtex · Apr 22, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
First, the 10 commandments came before the Christian. And it is not just the Christians who have started wars in the name of God.
And I see that as a condradiction. Thou shall not kill.
That's what the commandment says. There is no "except".

And let me ask you this; did Jesus defend himself, did he fight for his life? No, Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. But men who claim to be religious, claim to follow God, ignore even his 10 simple rules. Even if you have not been in a war yourself. What you think matters, and anyone who 'thinks' it's OK to go to war is just as guilty in the eyes of God as a murderer.

How long has the longest human lived? God murders everyday.
Sometimes he murders chilidern by giving them incurable dieses that are terminal. If God existed and life is finite God murders. Your God kills repeatly and his followers follow his example. It is more of a case of do as I do not as I say.

Jesus sounds like a wuss. By letting the romans kill him he ensured that thousands would executed after his death in the same fashion. Many of the others condemned to death by the romans may have looked for protection from him and he turned the other cheek and let them die. Some savior.

If someone came after your children would you stand by and say "turn the other cheek" or would you attempt to stop the attacker even at the detriment of the aggressor? You don't have to answer that question on here but realize that Jesus let the romans kill thousands more by not resisting and turning the other cheek. His children left to die.

Khale · Apr 22, 2005

I just had to jump into this with my two cents. This is from an earlier post of mine:

The Meaning of Kill in the Ten Commandments

Ratsach appears 47 times in the OT. It is never used in the context of legitimate war, or in the case of self-defense (Ex 22:2), accidental killing (Dt 19:5), or in the execution of a person who has forfeited his life by "shedding man's blood" (Gn 9:6). It is also not used in the text describing how Moses slayed the Egyptian taskmaster (Ex 2:12). All of these Scriptures use a different word not found in the Sixth Commandment [Protestant version of Bible, it is the 5th in the Catholic version]. And clearly Scripture supports certain kinds of killing as viscerally regrettable but righteous nevertheless.

The word, ratsach, does refer to killing for revenge (Nm 35:27, 30), and the premeditated killing of an innocent person (2 Kings 6:32). Therefore, when the Word says, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord" (Rom 12:19) there is a direct connection and precaution against usurping the role of God that relates directly to this Sixth Commandment. Only two lines later there is a designation as to whom God has delegated authority to in order to avenge wrongs done (Rom 13:1). The government then, and not the individual, has the right to punish for past offenses.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 24, 2005

God does not 'MURDER' people. People die. That is a natural thing and there is nothing wrong with dying. Innocent women and children are not murdered by God. They are brought to him. I just watched a documentary on John Walsh and his son Adam. What happened to Adam was a terrible tragedy. But how many lives have been saved because of his fathers crusade against missing children? And how many criminals have been brought to justice because of John Walsh's Americas Most Wanted? Everything happens for a reason. And when something happens do you address the situation with anger and hatred, or love and understanding? I know of many people who have lost their children, to drunk drivers, or illness, or 'freak' accidents. Have you heard the story of the mustard seed?

A distraut woman came to Buddha wanting him to resurect her son. He told her to do so, she must find him a mustard seed from a house that has seen no death. So she went out to every house in town. She did not find a mustard seed. But what she found was in everyhouse another story of loss of a loved one. She learned that she was not alone in her pain. And she recieved a higher understanding.

I do appreciate the clarification of murder over kill. But, many religions have 'murdered' merely because someone did not believe what they believed. Trying to justify it does not make it right.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 24, 2005

Oh, and Robtex, I guess by your definition Jesus was a wuss. That's part of the reason why the Jew didn't except him. By their definition, the Saviour was going to be a warrior type. Men and their egos. I tell you, they feel like there is only one way to do things. Haven't you ever heard that you can catch more bees with honey?

michel · Apr 24, 2005

I must say, Rob, that holding God responsible for the 'murder' of children, whilst it explains your motives for being an atheist, is a little bit 'far fetched'. Is it really your understanding that those who believe in God see him as being 'responsible' for everything that happens on Earth ?

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 24, 2005

Jewscout, taking things out of context :tsk:

And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.' Luke 19:27

Click to expand...

Try This:

Luke 19:11 The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was nearing Jerusalem, he told a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away. 12 He said, "A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13 Before he left, he called together ten servants and gave them ten pounds of silver F85 to invest for him while he was gone. 14 But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say they did not want him to be their king. 15 "When he returned, the king called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what they had done with the money and what their profits were. 16 The first servant reported a tremendous gain ten times as much as the original amount! 17 'Well done!' the king exclaimed. 'You are a trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.' 18 "The next servant also reported a good gain five times the original amount. 19 'Well done!' the king said. 'You can be governor over five cities.' 20 "But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, 'I hid it and kept it safe. 21 I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn't yours and harvesting crops you didn't plant.' 22 "'You wicked servant!' the king roared. 'Hard, am I? If you knew so much about me and how tough I am, 23 why didn't you deposit the money in the bank so I could at least get some interest on it?' 24 Then turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, 'Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who earned the most.' 25 "'But, master,' they said, 'that servant has enough already!' 26 "'Yes,' the king replied, 'but to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who are unfaithful, F86 even what little they have will be taken away. 27 And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.'"
28 After telling this story, Jesus went on toward Jerusalem, walking ahead of his disciples.

Jesus did not tell them to bring him his enemies. This was a parable not a literal. He was not really talking about money, he was talking about spiritual gifts and he was speaking of spiritual death.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 24, 2005

Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why can't you understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to do so! 44 For you are the children of your father the Devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

Jewscout, this is not meant to be a put down, this is a fact, the Devil is not a seperate entity. The devil is the flesh. A manifestation of our sins. Man is the devil, by his own words or deeds. That is the choice we must make, light or darkness. You are the child of the devil, because our physical fathers sinned. But we are also the children of God, who gives us everlasting life, outside of the physical. This is not Jesus talking bad about God's chosen people, he is reminding his people that they are no better than another human. He is reminding his people that they must look within themselves to find the truth.

jewscout · Apr 25, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
Oh, and Robtex, I guess by your definition Jesus was a wuss. That's part of the reason why the Jew didn't except him. By their definition, the Saviour was going to be a warrior type. Men and their egos.

some think that...others believe that the Moshiach ben David will be a spiritual leader

jewscout · Apr 25, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
Jewscout, this is not meant to be a put down, this is a fact, the Devil is not a seperate entity. The devil is the flesh. A manifestation of our sins. Man is the devil, by his own words or deeds. That is the choice we must make, light or darkness. You are the child of the devil, because our physical fathers sinned. But we are also the children of God, who gives us everlasting life, outside of the physical. This is not Jesus talking bad about God's chosen people, he is reminding his people that they are no better than another human. He is reminding his people that they must look within themselves to find the truth.

Haven't you ever heard that you can catch more bees with honey

perhaps though he would have better phrased it so as to not make the window open for an excuse of 2000 of violence against Jews

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 25, 2005

jewscout said:
perhaps though he would have better phrased it so as to not make the window open for an excuse of 2000 of violence against Jews

The violence against the Jews is caused by man, the devil. The window is open for all. Unfortunately, there is good and evil in the world. I am truly ashamed for all the evil that has fallen on the Jews. I say ashamed because if we are all of the same God, those who are evil are also a part of us. I am sorry for every evil thought that has gone out of me and into the universe. But I was like a child. And now that I know the truth, I know that any evil thought I might have is not private, but it has life, and creates that which is itself, evil begat evil. So I know that I must keep my thoughts in positive alignment with the Light that is God.

michel · Apr 25, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
The violence against the Jews is caused by man, the devil. The window is open for all. Unfortunately, there is good and evil in the world. I am truly ashamed for all the evil that has fallen on the Jews. I say ashamed because if we are all of the same God, those who are evil are also a part of us. I am sorry for every evil thought that has gone out of me and into the universe. But I was like a child. And now that I know the truth, I know that any evil thought I might have is not private, but it has life, and creates that which is itself, evil begat evil. So I know that I must keep my thoughts in positive alignment with the Light that is God.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to EnhancedSpirit again. - this is a conspiracy !!!:banghead3

I am fortunate enough never to have been in the position to think ill of any race. However, I feel disappointed and hurt that there is so much hatred in the world today. Disappointed because any violence that is supposedly from a religious 'faction' I can never understand. I feel that all religions (Certainly that I know of) have principles and moralities that, when it comes to the crunch, are virtually all centered on peace.

When there is violence I don't believe it is from the 'Devil' - I cannot immagine the concept of a devil - I regard him/it as being merely the sum total of evil in humanity. I sometimes feel frustrated that I can do nothing to dispel evil, and would give anything (including my own life) to be able to do so.

Logical 10 Commandments

High Priestess

Administrator Emeritus

High Priestess

High Priestess

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

High Priestess

High Priestess

Religious Zionist

Veteran Member

Active Member

High Priestess

High Priestess

Administrator Emeritus

High Priestess

High Priestess

Religious Zionist

Religious Zionist

High Priestess

Administrator Emeritus