• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Isn’t that a sign of reincarnation in the bible?

non-duality

Member
Matthew 17:10-13

The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied: “To be sure Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they whished. In the same way the son of man is suffering in their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

…another you find at Malachi 3:23 and in Luke 9:18-21
 

Joannicius

Active Member
non-duality said:
Matthew 17:10-13

The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied: “To be sure Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they whished. In the same way the son of man is suffering in their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

…another you find at Malachi 3:23 and in Luke 9:18-21
You ere in not knowing the scriptures......

See Lk 1:11-17 for the explanation of that.......to wit

1:11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
1:13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
1:14 "And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.
1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
1:16 "And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

and we don't take just a single scripture or our own understanding to build doctrines, we have the Church Bishops and Saints and Monks and History to consider.... these most important issues aren't to be interpreted flipantly or by any individual.
 

Joannicius

Active Member
It is clear that there are TWO deaths and it is the SECOND DEATH we want to avoid by entering into agreement with our maker and seek Him and being united with Him in the way He prescribes through His Church and His Word through the Church Fathers and the Saints. To Wit:

RV 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
 

non-duality

Member
Hello Joannicius!

First of all, I don’t believe in an interpretation of a bishop or a monk just because he is bishop or monk. About a saint: yes, if it is a saint in my eyes.

One question: what means “second death”? We know, dying is a temporarily process and if there is a live after death, there is also a live after second death. And if God is omnipresent, this “third live” after the “second death” can neither be apart from God.

I tell you why I believe in rebirth. I believe in souls. I believe that already an embryo has a soul. From science we know, that less than 50% of all embryos will reach birth. From looking at the world, we know, that some have long lives others die in their first days. In my eyes that would not be a God of justice who says: “No, you have lived in your mothers womb for about two months. That’s enough human experience.” And this to more than every second soul.

What about a soul who decides to help improving the world again (may be after a short live). I believe in a free will, so I do not believe in a God who says: “I gave you a free will, but I do not allow you to use it now.” Can we just use our free will if we are on earth? Would it be a paradise if we have to drop out free will there? What do you think?

Greetings by Martin
 

Pah

Uber all member
Moving this Catholic education thread to Comparative religions where it should have more notice for wider discussion
 

anami

Member
Joannicius said:
You ere in not knowing the scriptures......

See Lk 1:11-17 for the explanation of that.......to wit



and we don't take just a single scripture or our own understanding to build doctrines, we have the Church Bishops and Saints and Monks and History to consider.... these most important issues aren't to be interpreted flipantly or by any individual.

Interesting how you make no mention of all of the clear references to reincarnation that were removed from format to format of the Bible by the Monks, bishops, and government. And you can read various versions of the bible and watch peices be weaned out. So you quote a relativly unrelated passage from a different book (theoretically a different author, then) To dispute?

p.s. Never tell someone they err in not knowing the scriptures because they have a differrent interpretation of passage than your interpretation of what you have presumed by what you have been told by monks and bishops (or further mouthpieces from them even!) it doesn't make you look very good.
 

Joannicius

Active Member
non-duality said:
Hello Joannicius!

First of all, I don’t believe in an interpretation of a bishop or a monk just because he is bishop or monk. About a saint: yes, if it is a saint in my eyes. Here is a sign of the largest separation we have. I take the Church of Antiquity to be the authority and you take yourself....... will prove to be a problem the longer we debate or discuss.

One question: what means “second death”? We know, dying is a temporarily process and if there is a live after death, there is also a live after second death. And if God is omnipresent, this “third live” after the “second death” can neither be apart from God. I agree.

I tell you why I believe in rebirth. I believe in souls. I believe that already an embryo has a soul. From science we know, that less than 50% of all embryos will reach birth. From looking at the world, we know, that some have long lives others die in their first days. In my eyes that would not be a God of justice who says: “No, you have lived in your mothers womb for about two months. That’s enough human experience.” And this to more than every second soul. I don't go into areas I know nothing about.... I leave those to the Creator.

What about a soul who decides to help improving the world again (may be after a short live). I believe in a free will, so I do not believe in a God who says: “I gave you a free will, but I do not allow you to use it now.” Can we just use our free will if we are on earth? Would it be a paradise if we have to drop out free will there? What do you think? You are reading words into God's mouth as far as I can see, I don't understand where you are getting these assumptions. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

Greetings by Martin
Am looking forward to discussing this with you, just don't understand what your basis of The Creator's attitude or response or declarations?!? I know nowhere the scripture illudes to our loosing free will. I may be missunderstanding where you are coming from but it seems that there are a lot of assumptions about the next life(s) that you have heard that I can't identify with.
 

Joannicius

Active Member
anami said:
Interesting how you make no mention of all of the clear references to reincarnation that were removed from format to format of the Bible by the Monks, bishops, and government. And you can read various versions of the bible and watch peices be weaned out. So you quote a relativly unrelated passage from a different book (theoretically a different author, then) To dispute?

p.s. Never tell someone they err in not knowing the scriptures because they have a differrent interpretation of passage than your interpretation of what you have presumed by what you have been told by monks and bishops (or further mouthpieces from them even!) it doesn't make you look very good.
I don't know the words you speak...... could you give me some references? What "clear references"

Also, we probably accept different authorities as I mentioned in the last post. What do you think?
 

anami

Member
Joannicius said:
I don't know the words you speak...... could you give me some references? What "clear references"

Also, we probably accept different authorities as I mentioned in the last post. What do you think?


Likely even if i searched and found these references you would debate them with unrelated verses like last time while stating you don't understand because church authorities see it differently. You come from a place of disbelief i come from a place of the Bible, we could take twenty different verses and insist our own views upon them. i because of my beliefs yours because of what you have been told. One example is the one given to start this thread. Which is also a good example of what would happen if i spent hours seperating out passages about reincarnation. To save me some pointless labor google it, it is somewhat common knowledge.

Besides you have asserted that unless decreed by your church authorities you can not understand the view point, so my conversation with you will be brushed off and is therefore not worth my time. But i wanted to know, what exactly is an Orthochrist? Is that Orthodox Christian? If so you refer to bishops etc. so does that mean an orthodox christian is someone who proclaims Jesus as lord while following the Catholic faith? Now i don't understand.
 

non-duality

Member
Moving this Catholic education thread to Comparative religions where it should have more notice for wider discussion

Thanks but I grew up in catholic church. I had this differences. I want to know how (at least some others) Catholics think about it.

And thanks anami for your statements!

Joannicius
Am looking forward to discussing this with you, just don't understand what your basis of The Creator's attitude or response or declarations?!? I know nowhere the scripture illudes to our loosing free will. I may be misunderstanding where you are coming from but it seems that there are a lot of assumptions about the next life(s) that you have heard that I can't identify with.

I would never submit a statement like: "do not think about this, because God doesn't you to know this." I believe in the justice of the world. But in my eyes without rebirth there could be no. I don't believe God is angry on me because sometimes I try to have a view on things out of God's sight.

Certainly you will also ignore this:
John 10:34
Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your law:' I have said you are Gods'?"

Didn't God create us in his/her image?
Why do we have to put ourselves so low?
Why must we deny that there is truth inside of us, and we find it if we dig deep enough?
Of course my truth isn't your truth.
There are so many contradictions in the bible. So for those whor believe it is the only thruth here are as many choices.

Greetings by Martin
 

Joannicius

Active Member
anami said:
Likely even if i searched and found these references you would debate them with unrelated verses like last time while stating you don't understand because church authorities see it differently. You come from a place of disbelief i come from a place of the Bible, we could take twenty different verses and insist our own views upon them. i because of my beliefs yours because of what you have been told. One example is the one given to start this thread. Which is also a good example of what would happen if i spent hours seperating out passages about reincarnation. To save me some pointless labor google it, it is somewhat common knowledge.

Besides you have asserted that unless decreed by your church authorities you can not understand the view point, so my conversation with you will be brushed off and is therefore not worth my time. But i wanted to know, what exactly is an Orthochrist? Is that Orthodox Christian? If so you refer to bishops etc. so does that mean an orthodox christian is someone who proclaims Jesus as lord while following the Catholic faith? Now i don't understand.
Yes, Orthodox Christian and Jesus Christ is Lord of All and through All to the Glory of God the Father. We do not separate the Son from the Father and The Holy Spirit. They are inseperable, consubstantial and co-eternal. We adore the Trinity.

The "Catholic" faith as you accert (the reason I put it in quotes is that the Orthodox CATHOLIC faith differs considerably from the Roman Catholic Faith.) has been here since Christ and the doctrines and dogmas of The Church has been "hammered out" by thousands of Saints and Scholars. I can't put myself above their knowledge and experience. I even have a hard enough time submiting to the Ten Commandments which beleivers take as the rule of all rules for true piety. The Love of God and Neigbor being the highest part.
 

Joannicius

Active Member
I never see God as angry with us for questioning and truly desiring Truth. He is Truth and in desiring Truth we desire Him.

Jesus said we are "gods" for He made us to be in union with the Trinity and eternal which is a god.

Note: That of course, in light of other scriptures, doesn't remove our dependancy on the Father of all beginings. Nor does it decrease the Heirarchal authority that is in existance and will always be. The Trinity being the cause of all. Mary given a place at the "right hand" of Christ etc. The beauty of Heaven is order and peace which can only exist with One Rule Giver and our life in union with Him starts here and now, according to our humility and obediance. If there were a choice (excuse me while I go off on a tangent) I would not even choose re-incarnation. I would choose to be subject to the One who is the Only Lover of Mankind - Jesus Christ - to whom is due all Glory and Honor and Praise unto the ages of ages, AMEN
 

anami

Member
Joannicius said:
Yes, Orthodox Christian and Jesus Christ is Lord of All and through All to the Glory of God the Father. We do not separate the Son from the Father and The Holy Spirit. They are inseperable, consubstantial and co-eternal. We adore the Trinity.

The "Catholic" faith as you accert (the reason I put it in quotes is that the Orthodox CATHOLIC faith differs considerably from the Roman Catholic Faith.) has been here since Christ and the doctrines and dogmas of The Church has been "hammered out" by thousands of Saints and Scholars. I can't put myself above their knowledge and experience. I even have a hard enough time submiting to the Ten Commandments which beleivers take as the rule of all rules for true piety. The Love of God and Neigbor being the highest part.

First of all my quote had a mistake in it, either my typo or an unintenitional foul combo of quote crash. "i come from a place of the Bible" i never meant this to be my assertion as i believe it is that very crunching and hammering of dogma that has destroyed the Bible and that is it very inaccurate.

My question about orthodox christian comes not from my assumption but from your profile at the top of your posts. So are you Ortho Christ as that says or orthodox catholic etc. i was not trying to put you abouve the persons you put abouve yourself.
 

Joannicius

Active Member
anami said:
First of all my quote had a mistake in it, either my typo or an unintenitional foul combo of quote crash. "i come from a place of the Bible" i never meant this to be my assertion as i believe it is that very crunching and hammering of dogma that has destroyed the Bible and that is it very inaccurate.

By the Eighth Century (historical fact) the Church as a Whole had already defined the parameters of our faith more precisely than any of the "churches" of today or any individual is able. If you read the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the One Holy Catholic Orthodox Church you will see the definitions and conclusions that I speak of. The wisdom and completion of these are no less than miraculous and of surety are of The Holy Spirit working in and through men. I also contend that the Bishops and Emporers etc. that met in these are proven to be more holy than anyone I know. Many died for the faith and suffered untold agony defending it.

My question about orthodox christian comes not from my assumption but from your profile at the top of your posts. So are you Ortho Christ as that says or orthodox catholic etc. i was not trying to put you abouve the persons you put abouve yourself.
I believe that is clarified by the above statement, but to be more specific I am an Orthodox Christian under the jurisdiction of Antiochian Archdiocese.... Metropolitan Phillip and specifically Bishop Joseph of L.A. and the West.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
There are many times in the scriptures where a name is used for a type of personality. Both John the Baptist and Jesus were both "Elijahs" of their day. Loosely translated it either means "God is Mighty" or the "Mighty one of God". It was not meant that either the prophet or the two other Israelites who went by that name were to be physically reincarnated.
 

non-duality

Member
Hello Joannicius!

We do not separate the Son from the Father and The Holy Spirit. They are inseperable, consubstantial and co-eternal.

So it means all three are one.

Jesus said we are "gods" for He made us to be in union with the Trinity and eternal which is a god.

That means we also belong to this Unity.

The beauty of Heaven is order and peace which can only exist with One Rule Giver and our life in union with Him starts here and now, according to our humility and obediance.

Here we must understand that God is unconditional love, and whatever we want do in do in unconditional love God will support, or better: is made by God. Hands that help are holier than lips that worship.

If there were a choice (excuse me while I go off on a tangent) I would not even choose re-incarnation. I would choose to be subject to the One who is the Only Lover of Mankind - Jesus Christ - to whom is due all Glory and Honor and Praise unto the ages of ages, AMEN

The best way to choose Jesus is to serve others. That is why I don’t believe that God is refusing the possibility to come again. Again I ask you: what about the more than 50% of all human souls, that did not even reach birth? As I still went to church I was never happy with an answer like: we cannot know that, we leave it to God. We are one with God, and the truth we will not find, if we make ourselves dependent on what others say about God. I happily don’t believe others too much. If I want to know a person I have to trust my own experiences most. Same with God. If someone says: we cannot know that, it shows there is something he/she doesn’t want to think about. The main reason may be fear of punishment.

Greetings by Martin
 

anami

Member
Joannicius said:
By the Eighth Century (historical fact) the Church as a Whole had already defined the parameters of our faith more precisely than any of the "churches" of today or any individual is able. If you read the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the One Holy Catholic Orthodox Church you will see the definitions and conclusions that I speak of. The wisdom and completion of these are no less than miraculous and of surety are of The Holy Spirit working in and through men. I also contend that the Bishops and Emporers etc. that met in these are proven to be more holy than anyone I know. Many died for the faith and suffered untold agony defending it.

i see.

At this point we shake hands and agree to disagree, such as it is. ;)
 

john313

warrior-poet
non-duality said:
Matthew 17:10-13

The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied: “To be sure Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they whished. In the same way the son of man is suffering in their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

…another you find at Malachi 3:23 and in Luke 9:18-21
it is reincarnation of the soul. the soul of Elijah was put into the "shell" of John.
Luke also supports this in 1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah"
 

Joannicius

Active Member
it is reincarnation of the soul. the soul of Elijah was put into the "shell" of John. Luke also supports this in 1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah"
We can not say that "the spirit and power of Elijah is equal to his soul; That , is an assumption, my friend. You have to read that into those scriptures and with the rest of the Bible, it doesn't balance out,IMHO, we accept that understanding as a mystery unexplained......


lastly, but most assuredly not the least, is the Orthodox Christian understanding of the fetus or the death of any child. They are immediately in the "bossom of Abraham", a place where all the righteous go when they die, for they have no stain of sin, they had only the resultant of Adam's sin in their body, soul and spirit, which is decay and death. The guilt of sin was not passed to us as the Roman Catholic and the Protestant Churches believe. We stand or fall by the sin we have personally, otherwise is unjust, and we do not believe God to be unjust. We know Him as The Only Lover of Mankind
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
**MOD POST**
Posts edited and removed because they had become entirley off topic
the subject is signs of reincarnation in the bible
 
Top