Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

kobayashi said:

Thanks for posting the URL.

1) I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would face persecution and die for something they knew to be false. At least somebody would have at least recanted under torture.

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I have never understood why this argument is used as a proof for the validity of Christianity. Many upon many have died for things that they BELIEVED were truth and in the end, they died in vain.

Here is proof that the True God would never require us to die for a belief. He gave us Life. I would NEVER DIE willingly for a belief... it is just silly and is anti LIfe...

kobayashi said:

3) What could Paul possibly gain from lying about the teachings of the other disciples?

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1. Revenge on his fellow Jewish who most likely were annoyed by his fanaticism
2. Ego booster and immortalized in the collective mind of mankind.
3. Eternal Life (thus, what his false faith offered and he himself admitted to keep him going)

Revenge, fame, and vain rewards.. yup.. pretty much fits right in with what is found in his teaches!! Hope that helps. :yes:

kobayashi said:

The facts I listed in the first post.
Is it really plausible to say that the disciples simply imagined that Jesus was alive, after having seen him die?

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It is plausible to say that a writer took Hellenistic mythologies, pulled a few verses out of whole books of testimonies (the prophecies), and put into the hands of the unlearned to taught them what to see via suggestion rather than with their eyes.

That Paul, who was busy throwing Christians into prison and handing them over to die, suddenly imagined that Jesus was risen from the dead?

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It is plausible that a man who was a bit ku-coo used magic (yes, magic) to promote his own mythological beliefs and in the process become immortalized in the minds of mankind. By the way.. magic is not hocus pocus "pull something out of nothing" mysticism... it is the art of illusion.. power of suggestion is truly power when used on those who would rather be told what to believe than to think for themselves.

And that James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, himself became a Christian due to an active imagination?

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Yes.. if he indeed became a Christian, you would be correct here. :yes:

And that all these people were willing to face terrible persecution for something they simply imagined?

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yes... the followers of David Koresh would be good evidence of this being plausible.

It's not enough to simply suggest alternate theories. We also need to see what the evidence indicates. But the disciples claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected from the dead; so did Paul. Furthermore, this doesn't account for the empty tomb.

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Do you even have any evidence of the disciples' existing other than writings that popped up being attributed to them? There is evidence though that these Hellenistic teachings were in existence long before the time of Jesus having lived on earth.

Originally Posted by kobayashi
3) What could Paul possibly gain from lying about the teachings of the other disciples?

IF_u_knew said:

1. Revenge on his fellow Jewish who most likely were annoyed by his fanaticism
2. Ego booster and immortalized in the collective mind of mankind.
3. Eternal Life (thus, what his false faith offered and he himself admitted to keep him going)

Revenge, fame, and vain rewards.. yup.. pretty much fits right in with what is found in his teaches!! Hope that helps. :yes:

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If this were Paul's personality, I would think that this would be abundantly clear from his writings. As they are, these notions don't reflect his character or personality at all.

I am disappointed to see that no one has started from the beginning. Where is even the prophecy found in the foundation (the Tanakh) Christianity used as a catalyst to support itself that a man would be resurrected from the dead? And for what purpose is this man to be resurrected? <--- should be able to show through the Tanakh what the purpose of such an unnatural act would be for.

To actually get *ANYWHERE* productive concerning the premise of this thread, we must first establish the foundation of the claim and its purpose, no? If it cannot even be supported on the foundation to which it claims, then it would raise other questions of a more productive nature I would think.

So, anyone? I am curious.

IF_u_knew said:

I am disappointed to see that no one has started from the beginning. Where is even the prophecy found in the foundation (the Tanakh) Christianity used as a catalyst to support itself that a man would be resurrected from the dead? And for what purpose is this man to be resurrected? <--- should be able to show through the Tanakh what the purpose of such an unnatural act would be for.

To actually get *ANYWHERE* productive concerning the premise of this thread, we must first establish the foundation of the claim and its purpose, no? If it cannot even be supported on the foundation to which it claims, then it would raise other questions of a more productive nature I would think.

So, anyone? I am curious.

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Which specific prophecy are you thinking of?

I would take the approach of not just taking specific prophecies as much as the overall thrust of many portions of the OT/Tanakh.

adimus said:

Originally Posted by kobayashi
3) What could Paul possibly gain from lying about the teachings of the other disciples?


If this were Paul's personality, I would think that this would be abundantly clear from his writings. As they are, these notions don't reflect his character or personality at all.

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Really? I had quite the impression that he was an egotistical, jealous, kiss butt type of guy. Perhaps my impression came from the following:

1 Thess 2:14-15
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Dang Jews!

Titus 1:10-16
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Remember.. to stop one's mouth you must either be

1. Educated enough in the scriptures to win the debate, and since Christianity can not be supported in the Scriptures, that will not happen..
2. So, perhaps you could bully them with words or cover your ears and sing "tra-la-la" really loud.. but that only works so long when Truth starts to make its way out..
3. which most likely will lead to what it always leads to, as is evidenced throughout the history of the World... kill the ones with the knowledge.

Kissing butt of some and smearing the ones that disagree with him (these are always amusing to read.. except then you remember that this HAS BECOME the mentality of many and that is actually scary):

Galatians 2.. perfect example of the gossip nature that plagues christianity.

2 Timothy 3: (common theme to smear some and uplift others.. sometimes he uplifts someone and then a little later he calls the same one a worker of Satan)

8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Egotistical through fake sincerity *pukes*

I Corinthians 1:
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.



Does anyone actually read his writings? He is a manipulator. :yes:



NOt to mention, Jesus said repeatedly not to go in the way in the Gentiles.. so Paul's claim that Jesus told him otherwise is contrary to what Jesus said.

Of course, there is no prophecy directly mentioning Jesus in the OT. Only Cyrus was mentioned by name in advance. Messiah's actual name was not prophesied. That would be sort of strange if it were to me. I think a prophetic sketch of Messiah's character, work, life, death and resurrection would be more what the prophets wrote about- which they did.

adimus said:

Which specific prophecy are you thinking of?

I would take the approach of not just taking specific prophecies as much as the overall thrust of many portions of the OT/Tanakh.

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How about that a man would die, be buried, and raised on the third day.. and that his name would be Jesus. That would be good for starters.

adimus said:

Of course, there is no prophecy directly mentioning Jesus in the OT. Only Cyrus was mentioned by name in advance. Messiah's actual name was not prophesied. That would be sort of strange if it were to me. I think a prophetic sketch of Messiah's character, work, life, death and resurrection would be more what the prophets wrote about- which they did.

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God said in Isaiah 46:
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So, if the Messiah's name is Jesus, it *will* be there. I assure you, else God is a liar.

IF_u_knew said:

Really? I had quite the impression that he was an egotistical, jealous, kiss butt type of guy. Perhaps my impression came from the following:

1 Thess 2:14-15
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Dang Jews!

I understand your thoughts there. I think that a more contextual rendering of the word "Jews" might fit "Judeans" better. Paul and most of the Christians were Jews themselves. So it is hard to imagine that this was an antisemitic, begrudged tirade.

Paul also said things like this: "I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites..." Romans 9:1-4. If the first quote was mere emotionalism, than Paul is a schizo.

Titus 1:10-16
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
...
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Apparently, these specific Jewish people were doing something to turn people away from the pure gospel and somehow get people to follow them- which was somehow financially benefiting these teachers.
The quote "Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies" is from a pagan poet. Apparently whoever Paul was referring to was using that quote to advance a malevolent personal agenda that Paul was against. This sort of behavior is serious sin which Paul was addressing there. Be objective about it.


Remember.. to stop one's mouth you must either be

1. Educated enough in the scriptures to win the debate, and since Christianity can not be supported in the Scriptures, that will not happen..
2. So, perhaps you could bully them with words or cover your ears and sing "tra-la-la" really loud.. but that only works so long when Truth starts to make its way out..
3. which most likely will lead to what it always leads to, as is evidenced throughout the history of the World... kill the ones with the knowledge.

Kissing butt of some and smearing the ones that disagree with him (these are always amusing to read.. except then you remember that this HAS BECOME the mentality of many and that is actually scary):

Galatians 2.. perfect example of the gossip nature that plagues christianity.

2 Timothy 3: (common theme to smear some and uplift others.. sometimes he uplifts someone and then a little later he calls the same one a worker of Satan)

8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Jannes and Jambres was a mythical story from widely known traditions from outside of the actual Bible. Paul used them as an example of how these false teachers were using their own strengths (knowledge of the Tanakh, traditions and even pagan education) to advance a personal, malevolent agenda. Paul made a good illustration there.

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

The truth is not always egotism. Paul said "Thou hast know my..." So obviously some of the leaders there personally could account for Paul. Paul had a habit of living and working among the churches he worked with or even planted initially. So this statement is an appeal to follow the established leadership that could vouch for Paul. He was very concerned for the people. Paul got real specific in what he was appealing to about his own life. Obviously people were well aware of these things.

Egotistical through fake sincerity *pukes*

I Corinthians 1:
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Does anyone actually read his writings? He is a manipulator. :yes:

I think Paul was concerned over the sectarian spirit that many of the Corinthians were demonstrating. He was not a personality cult leader, as they were making him and others out to be. Paul was always concerned that people are following Jesus. This would mean that they follow the gospels and the teachings of the apostles- like himself. No apostle would call people to themselves instead of Jesus. No apostle would call people to follow Jesus and NOT the apostles, like some of the Corinthians were doing. The Corinthians had a lot of issues, more than any other church in the NT.

NOt to mention, Jesus said repeatedly not to go in the way in the Gentiles.. so Paul's claim that Jesus told him otherwise is contrary to what Jesus said.

OK. I will have to call you on that one. Obviously you are not familiar with the scriptures enough. After Jesus rose from the dead, a lot of things were different other than Jesus having some serious battle scars. Jesus said " “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations (Gentiles literally), baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Mat 28:18-20.

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I hope my replies are clear enough

IF_u_knew said:

God said in Isaiah 46:
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So, if the Messiah's name is Jesus, it *will* be there. I assure you, else God is a liar.

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Your so dogmatic. Fiesty woman!

God did not reveal his covenant name, Yahweh, until Moses received it. So no. God is not bound to a human set of rules that says He must announce Messiah's name in advance. Anyone named Yeshua would be able to claim Messiahship.

I can give you his name in the OT. But it is a sort of an odd (to us) stretch to do it. But not any more of a stretch than most of the Rabbis as well as the authors of the NT employ regularly.

Isaiah 25:9.
It will be said on that day,
&#8220;Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us.
This is the Lord; we have waited for him;
let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation.&#8221;

"Salvation" there is the word "yeshua," which was also a man's name in the OT and the NT (other than Jesus Christ Himself). So you could read it to be a sort of cryptic reference to Yeshua's actual name. In fact, this concept would flush perfectly with the annunciation by Gabriel to Miryam. "an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, &#8220;Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.&#8221; Mat 1:20-21.

IF_u_knew said:

How about that a man would die, be buried, and raised on the third day.. and that his name would be Jesus. That would be good for starters.

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I know you may try to discredit Isaiah 53 but that is definitely where I would go. There and Psalm 22. I will start with Messiah's death and take it from there maybe after this.

Messiah's death:

1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned&#8212;every one&#8212;to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.


The emboldened above show the Messiah's sacrificial death.

Also, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 when he was dying on the cross. He was identifying with the Psalmist and the Psalmists experience in its context.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 &#8220;He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!&#8221;

9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.

12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet (other possible translations also)&#8212;
17 I can count all my bones&#8212;
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!

22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.

25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.

Psalm 22 is identified though and I hardly doubt it was Jesus because he had plenty of friends and followers (supporters) during his ministry and well... come on!! Look now. However, the declared name's (vs 6) lineage does rather fit that description.
Isaiah 41: 14 "Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Jacob = is the father of the Jewish lineage.

Personally, I do believe that He meant it literally when He, God said He would declare it. Thus far, in my research, I have been correct to believe He will not lie.

IF_u_knew said:

Psalm 22 is identified though and I hardly doubt it was Jesus because he had plenty of friends and followers (supporters) during his ministry and well... come on!! Look now. However, the declared name's (vs 6) lineage does rather fit that description.
Isaiah 41: 14 "Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Jacob = is the father of the Jewish lineage.

Personally, I do believe that He meant it literally when He, God said He would declare it. Thus far, in my research, I have been correct to believe He will not lie.

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Did you read my posts? Especially #132?

Isaiah 53 is identified as well. Isaiah 52: 13-15 lead into Isaiah 53.. thus, we can conclude Isaiah 53 is speaking of God's servant. Who is that servant? It is declared in Isaiah 49: 3.. it is also interesting to note, that this servant, the one declared by the God who said His counsel SHALL STAND and that He, the LORD does not change (mal 3:6), will also be the servant that is a light unto the Gentiles. How this is accomplished is not only spoken of in Isaiah 52: 13-15, but also Jeremiah 31 as well. It is declared outright and none of it sounds anything like what the NT says.. unless you take the story of Jesus to be a metaphor.

The NT is prophesied of though... found in Deuteronomy as to what the purpose of it is.
Unless someone can prove otherwise that jesus was god, son of, messiah... etc.

By the way, I said the Messiah is clearly declared in Daniel 10 and 12.. connect the dots. The name of this Messiah is telling.. "who is like unto thee, o God."
Psalm 35 and Exodus 15 both carry this phrase... Personally... I already see that the Messiah has returned, but perhaps that is because I am not looking for an image/man?

adimus said:

Did you read my posts? Especially #132?

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Yes.. I am going backwards. :yes: But will have to put that on hold. No worries.. will be back! While I am away, you could post who it is God declares as His firstborn Son; found in Hosea 11:1 and Ex. 4: 22, 23.

IF_u_knew said:

Isaiah 53 is identified as well. Isaiah 52: 13-15 lead into Isaiah 53.. thus, we can conclude Isaiah 53 is speaking of God's servant. Who is that servant? It is declared in Isaiah 49: 3.. it is also interesting to note, that this servant, the one declared by the God who said His counsel SHALL STAND and that He, the LORD does not change (mal 3:6), will also be the servant that is a light unto the Gentiles. How this is accomplished is not only spoken of in Isaiah 52: 13-15, but also Jeremiah 31 as well. It is declared outright and none of it sounds anything like what the NT says.. unless you take the story of Jesus to be a metaphor.

The NT is prophesied of though... found in Deuteronomy as to what the purpose of it is.
Unless someone can prove otherwise that jesus was god, son of, messiah... etc.

By the way, I said the Messiah is clearly declared in Daniel 10 and 12.. connect the dots. The name of this Messiah is telling.. "who is like unto thee, o God."
Psalm 35 and Exodus 15 both carry this phrase... Personally... I already see that the Messiah has returned, but perhaps that is because I am not looking for an image/man?

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Anti-missionary huh?

Isa 49:5 goes right on to say this:
"And now the Lord says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—"

Obviously there are two servants being referenced in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53: gives us the identity of the suffering one who dies and is resurrected right here:
"4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed."

You can't deny the sharp contrast between the suffering servant as opposed to Israel and the prophet writing.

IF_u_knew said:

Yes.. I am going backwards. :yes: But will have to put that on hold. No worries.. will be back! While I am away, you could post who it is God declares as His firstborn Son; found in Hosea 11:1 and Ex. 4: 22, 23.

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I obviously know the Bible,

OK here goes. But you are moving WAY too fast for me to brainwash you! :yes: LOL Just kidding. But seriously, one thing at a time sis. I was wanting to zero in on the death of the Messiah in the Tanakh first. But I will answer those things first.

Hosea 11:1 is directly speaking of the nation of Israel. I will not deny that. It is applied to Jesus in Matthew 2.

"13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Matthew was unarguably a master of the Tanakh. It is only fair and wise to assume that Matthew knew that Hosea 11:1 was about Israel in Exodus. Something can be "fulfilled" more than once also. Jesus is the suffering servant of Isaiah, in Matthew. Jesus is the son of God in Mat as well. Jesus is therefore viewed as the representative stand in for Israel, according to Isa 53 and Matthew's NT oriented view of it. Therefor, Jesus, as Israel's rightful heir to David's throne, could be called the "son" of God like the Davidic kings were referred to as many times in the Tanakh.

Israel was a fledgling nation with no power to help themselves in Egypt. This is quite comparable to the infant Jesus who was a refugee in Egypt. God had promised Abraham to give his descendants the promised land long before the slavery in Egypt. So, just as God delivered Israel from the tyranny of the Pharaoh, God also delivered infant Jesus from the tyranny of Herod. Once the threat was no longer there, both Israel and Jesus were "free" to leave Egypt. You see the comparisons and similarities?

Ex 4:22 simply calls Israel the firstborn son of God. David and his dynasty are also called such in Psalm 89:26-27.
"26 He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father,
my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’
27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth."

adimus said:

I obviously know the Bible,

OK here goes. But you are moving WAY too fast for me to brainwash you! :yes: LOL Just kidding. But seriously, one thing at a time sis.

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Yes, I apologize.

Matthew was unarguably a master of the Tanakh.

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Now, zeroing in on this point, I do quite agree that the writer of Matthew knew what they were doing. This is the book that did for me what is spoken of in verse 13 of Isaiah 28, below.

Isaiah 28: 5-20 gives a good portion of the context to read, but specifically, I am drawing on verse 13.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The genealogy account given in Matthew 1: 6-11 should be compared to II Chr. 3:10-16.

Stumbling block #1: can you find the four names missing?

Stumbling block #2: Notice the son of Jacob in verse 2 of Matthew 1. What's that name?

Stumbling block #3: verses 15 offers up a HUGE clue as to the origins of this book.

Stumbling block #4: verse 16 is rather curious.. notice that last part of the genealogy line anywhere in the Tanakh?

Because if you do, then you might take note of
Stumbling block #5: found in verses 18 and 19 and if you are rather familiar with Genesis, then this should strike you as rather curious.. giving you cause to consider and wonder.

And on and on and on and on I could go with Matthew.. that is not even all that is there in just that first chapter alone. The stumbling blocks there, the inconsistencies are a blessing.

verse 16 in Isaiah 28 is speaking of a particular foundation, and verse 20 will reveal itself to be true and the reason to be pure, the more that you get to know that foundation.

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.



I kept my eyes stuck to the Tanakh for quite a bit and absorbed it.. not in the eyes of man, but just for what was there. Matthew contains the "Voice calling out in the wilderness".. and to hear that Voice more clearly, knowing the foundation is a MUST!
Matthew was my grace in that it destroyed my faith and thus, it led me to the foundation; because of that, my sight has steadily and consistently been in restoration concerning the Truth.
There is a reason why I call the faith of Christianity blind and there is a reason why I am anti the writings of Paul. The writer clearly knew that to know the foundation was to see the Truth in its Pure Light.

"But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

:yes: