How Many Religous People Really Believe?

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
Eh, I didn't mean a pacific gender, I just say that cause that's pretty much he universal way of enviosioning him.
But if he isn't revealing himself to us, isn't that what he's doing; hiding?

You lock the concept of deity into a being that makes decisions like we do. Once you try to put human qualities to something that is not human you limit your ability to comprehend that which is beyond human. There are concepts of deity that do not involve thinking of deity as even having wants or desires. A deity which exists but does not have any form of desire to be acknowledged. Now, granted in a few religions their concept of deity involves a god who is very much demanding of attention and worship, but there are others whose concept of deity doesn't even have such a human concept as desire. So why would such a deity care if people believed in it or not?

If god's real, then why don't prayers get answered? Studies show that prayer has no meaningful effect and that those who are prayed for seem to do worse than those who are not prayed for.

Prayer without work begets nothing. Again, it all depends on the concept of deity when such questions like your are asked...doesn't it?

Ah, ok. I think we're on the same page now. But why add a major assumption to scientific knowledge? I, personally, think it's intellectually lazy to not look for answers and credit it to some god being the reason why we're here.

What page are we on exactly?

I know those ideas well enough to know why I reject them. They're all devoid of any evidance to prove in their right. With out evidence I don't believe in anything, seeing as I base my beliefs arround evidence. You should try the same.

You do not possibly know all ideas and concepts of deity in the world. For you obviously don't have a clue about mine. And I base my beliefs on evidence as well. I would be a fool not to. Just because I may have been privy to certain evidence you haven't seen does not mean the evidence wasn't presented to me. And before you jump the gun here...it also doesn't mean that just because I was presented with evidence that I have the ability to present that very same evidence to you. It isn't mine to give.

DarkMaster24 said:
Personal attacks don't add substance to a debate.

Then do you care to explain your evolution statement or would you care to admit that it was, in fact, nonsense?

Mister Emu · Mar 7, 2009

If god is real, and loving, like I'm sure you believe he is, why doesnt he do anything to alleviate all the prfound suffering in the world. People struggling with mentall illness, drug addictions, depression, suicide, and your god never does a thing to help them...why not?

First who says He does nothing? Secondly, and an important if disconcerting point, God's ultimate purpose for us goes far beyond mortal suffering. Thirdly, in my, and my Church's, theology God allows us free will to do evil or choose good...

The point of my DNA statement was to prove that life doesn't need god to explain why it's as complex as it is.

Perhaps not, however, that was not what you said... you originally said that it was evidence of God not existing...

The Big Bang may be in dispute, but that's only with in the creationist crowd, no one else argues it.

You misunderstand me, the Big Bang, exactly opposite of destroying Christianity, was a point in its favor... if the Universe had been found to be eternal it could not have a beginning and therefore could not have a creator... an arguement against God used to be that the universe was eternal, it had always existed...

I've heard of theistic Evolution but don't believe in it because it's entire foundation is baed off of the assumption god's real in spite of the absence of evidance to verify it.

If you have heard of theistic evolution, how could you say that darwinism destroys Christianity? It doesn't particularly matter if you accept it or not, but the theory of evolution only affects certain understandings...

I mean, that like all theists believe god allways existed, but i'm argueing that such a powerful being could never have just been there, rather he too would need time to evolve to get as powerful as he is, but theists dismiss that.

Why is it nessecary for Him to evolve? What makes it so?

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
I mean, that like all theists believe god allways existed, but i'm argueing that such a powerful being could never have just been there, rather he too would need time to evolve to get as powerful as he is, but theists dismiss that.

Why couldn't something you don't understand be there? Why would something you don't understand have to follow rules you understand?

Mister Emu · Mar 7, 2009

It's a link to some information that shows prayer doesn't work. If you wanna dispute any of the claims made, I'm up for it.

Sure... as I said before, all studies into the efficacy of prayer are inherently flawed... They can never be valid.

Unfortunately for scienctific understanding of prayer, you cannot possibly know or control the variable of who is being prayed for...

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Draka said:
Draka said:

You lock the concept of deity into a being that makes decisions like we do. Once you try to put human qualities to something that is not human you limit your ability to comprehend that which is beyond human. There are concepts of deity that do not involve thinking of deity as even having wants or desires. A deity which exists but does not have any form of desire to be acknowledged. Now, granted in a few religions their concept of deity involves a god who is very much demanding of attention and worship, but there are others whose concept of deity doesn't even have such a human concept as desire. So why would such a deity care if people believed in it or not?

Click to expand...

You have a valid point here. However, the fact still stands that you've not given me any evidence to prove that he exists. You're making the improbable claim he exists so give me evidence, or else you're using a straw man arguement.

Prayer without work begets nothing. Again, it all depends on the concept of deity when such questions like your are asked...doesn't it?

Click to expand...

IF you have to do it yourself, why pray?

What page are we on exactly?

Click to expand...

I'm saying that I understand that you believe in both god and Evolution.

You do not possibly know all ideas and concepts of deity in the world. For you obviously don't have a clue about mine. And I base my beliefs on evidence as well. I would be a fool not to. Just because I may have been privy to certain evidence you haven't seen does not mean the evidence wasn't presented to me. And before you jump the gun here...it also doesn't mean that just because I was presented with evidence that I have the ability to present that very same evidence to you. It isn't mine to give.

Click to expand...

If you base your beliefs on evidance, then why do you believe in something with no evidence: god? Is it isn't mine to give your way of saying there isn't any? Cause they sure sound alike.

To quote a brilliant mind, "The invisible and the nonexistent look very much alike."

Then do you care to explain your evolution statement or would you care to admit that it was, in fact, nonsense?

Click to expand...

No it was sheer honesty.

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Mister Emu said:
First who says He does nothing? Secondly, and an important if disconcerting point, God's ultimate purpose for us goes far beyond mortal suffering. Thirdly, in my, and my Church's, theology God allows us free will to do evil or choose good...

All the evidence leads me to believe he never does a thing to help anyone, which is ironic for an all-loving god. When has he healed an amputee? Yeah, but the mentally ill never choose their path of suffering Half of people with schiophrenia ultimately end up committing suicide, why wont god help them?

Perhaps not, however, that was not what you said... you originally said that it was evidence of God not existing...

Click to expand...

Indeed, I did. It may seem like I'm contradicitng myself, but there's more to it than that. I just don't know how to explain it.

You misunderstand me, the Big Bang, exactly opposite of destroying Christianity, was a point in its favor... if the Universe had been found to be eternal it could not have a beginning and therefore could not have a creator... an arguement against God used to be that the universe was eternal, it had always existed...

Click to expand...

I don't believe that. I don't have any clue how old this universe itself is but I accept the scientists when they say this world is billions of years old.

If you have heard of theistic evolution, how could you say that darwinism destroys Christianity? It doesn't particularly matter if you accept it or not, but the theory of evolution only affects certain understandings...

Click to expand...

Ah, I said that because I intitially suspected Draka of being a bible believing creationist.

Why is it nessecary for Him to evolve? What makes it so?

Click to expand...

Such a pwerful, intricate being can't manifest itself or have allways existed. The laws of science show life doesn't work like that.

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Mister Emu said:
Sure... as I said before, all studies into the efficacy of prayer are inherently flawed... They can never be valid.

Unfortunately for scienctific understanding of prayer, you cannot possibly know or control the variable of who is being prayed for...

This study did.

One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments.

We also learned in class that those who are prayed for never seem to do any better than those who aren't.

I know you're saying we can't allways know if someone's been prayed for or not, but this study shows that even when their prayed for nothing changes.

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
You have a valid point here. However, the fact still stands that you've not given me any evidence to prove that he exists. You're making the improbable claim he exists so give me evidence, or else you're using a straw man arguement.

I'm not here to prove deity to you. I can't do that. I don't have the evidence. It's not mine to give. I'm here to prove that you don't have the evidence to disprove deity. And you don't.

IF you have to do it yourself, why pray?

Why should something be handed to someone if they are not willing to work for it themselves? One prays for strength to do what they need to do. One may pray for the wisdom to make a decision. One may pray for guidance or advice. Putting will and energy into prayer by action and ritual is also a different way of putting work to prayer. There is a point to prayer, but no one should expect to get something for nothing.

If you base your beliefs on evidance, then why do you believe in something with no evidence: god? Is it isn't mine to give your way of saying there isn't any? Cause they sure sound alike.

I don't believe in something with no evidence. My beliefs in deity are based on evidence. And no, saying the evidence isn't mine to give isn't the same as saying there isn't any.

No it was sheer honesty.

No, it was sheer nonsense.

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
Ah, I said that because I intitially suspected Draka of being a bible believing creationist.

:spit:This has got to be one of the most ridiculously funny things I think I have ever seen!

Such a pwerful, intricate being can't manifest itself or have allways existed. The laws of science show life doesn't work like that.

Firstly, why? Secondly, there you go again, putting human rules on something that isn't human. "Life". Why do you view god as a being that is alive?

Mister Emu · Mar 7, 2009

Yeah, but the mentally ill never choose their path of suffering

I'd say the majority doesn't... starving children in Africa don't choose to be born there with no food...

I don't believe that.

Which part?

The laws of science show life doesn't work like that.

What law governs an extra-Universal being? Our scientific laws are only observations of the this physical universe, they say nothing of any possible thing beyond it...

This study did.

No it didn't...

I know you're saying we can't allways know if someone's been prayed for or not, but this study shows that even when their prayed for nothing changes.

The whole problem is that every patient could have been prayed for... then how do you know what effect prayer had?

The scientific method only works if you can control the variables...

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Draka said:
I'm not here to prove deity to you. I can't do that. I don't have the evidence. It's not mine to give. I'm here to prove that you don't have the evidence to disprove deity. And you don't.

Eh, I don't care to believe your deity so it's all god. Last thing I need is to fallow an irrational claim when you refuse to provide any evicance for it. At least I've stated why I don't believe your god or any other.

Why should something be handed to someone if they are not willing to work for it themselves? One prays for strength to do what they need to do. One may pray for the wisdom to make a decision. One may pray for guidance or advice. Putting will and energy into prayer by action and ritual is also a different way of putting work to prayer. There is a point to prayer, but no one should expect to get something for nothing.

Click to expand...

Yes, prayer may work in the sense that it deludes people into doing what they shoulld allready do for themselves with out some god helping them do it. So are you saying your god communicates with you? How does he do that?

I don't believe in something with no evidence. My beliefs in deity are based on evidence. And no, saying the evidence isn't mine to give isn't the same as saying there isn't any.

Click to expand...

You do realize if you don't reveal any evidance, I have no reason to believe you, right?

No, it was sheer nonsense.

Click to expand...

If you didn't understand it, I could see how it'd look that way.

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Mister Emu said:
I'd say the majority doesn't... starving children in Africa don't choose to be born there with no food...

Then is your god a fair god? How does an all-loving god play favorites like that?

Which part?

That the universe is eternal.

What law governs an extra-Universal being? Our scientific laws are only observations of the this physical universe, they say nothing of any possible thing beyond it...

Click to expand...

The laws of biology tell us that any living creature takes time to develop and grow. But if god's outside of that, then it's anti-science and an appeal to irrationality.

No it didn't...

The whole problem is that every patient could have been prayed for... then how do you know what effect prayer had?

Click to expand...

We don't know, but the fact is that the one's we do know that were prayed for werent helped.

The scientific method only works if you can control the variables...

Click to expand...

Yes, but like I said we work with what we know and from what we deducted, prayer had no effect.

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
Eh, I don't care to believe your deity so it's all god. Last thing I need is to fallow an irrational claim when you refuse to provide any evicance for it. At least I've stated why I don't believe your god or any other.

Again ignoring the point here. You claim to have evidence to refute deity. You don't have it. That simple.

Yes, prayer may work in the sense that it deludes people into doing what they shoulld allready do for themselves with out some god helping them do it. So are you saying your god communicates with you? How does he do that?

First part, rubbish. Second part, many ways. (and it's not a he)

You do realize if you don't reveal any evidance, I have no reason to believe you, right?

You do realize that whether or not you believe me is of no concern of mine, right?

If you didn't understand it, I could see how it'd look that way.

It's not a matter of not understanding it. It's a matter of you not understanding something and making a baseless claim because of that.

tomspug · Mar 7, 2009

atotalstranger said:
In my experience, most aspects of human nature tend to be more of a spectrum then a black/white dichotomy. It seems as though religious belief, or faith, would fall into this as well.

Most 'religious' people I've known tend to fall into a broad category of people who I define as "people who believe because that's what you're supposed to do". They were raised with certain beliefs, it's what most other people they encounter believe, so there's no reason to rock the boat - it's almost an inertia-based worldview. Of course, this can only occur in individuals who don't engage in too much outer, or inner, reflection on larger questions. This does appear to be many people though.

There are clearly people who have explored themselves and the world deeply, and are believers, but this seems to be a minority, to me.

Most people I've encountered throughout my life who were 'religious' never seemed very impacted by their faith. They might attend church regularly, get their kids babtized, say grace before meals, but it all seems like a social habit/ritual with no larger meaning - like people following a script without really getting the story.

Based on this, I've always wondered how many people really believe? Not just a professed belief, but a conscious, explored understanding of what their belief is. As a corollary, can a belief be meaningful if it has never been questioned?

Does this ring true with anyone else? Does faith have any meaning if it's simply a social ritual/reflex?

The purpose of religion is to remind us of what we believe. If you ritualize something without purpose, then yeah, it's stupid. People do this so often, honestly, I think it's because people don't have a good reason for their beliefs. They claim to believe in a higher purpose and yet their life is completely focused on THEIR purpose, i.e. more money for a bigger house, vacations to the islands, and an early retirement... I'm sure if you straight up asked most people WHY they go to church, they wouldn't be able to answer satisfactorily.

No*s · Mar 7, 2009

atotalstranger said:
In my experience, most aspects of human nature tend to be more of a spectrum then a black/white dichotomy. It seems as though religious belief, or faith, would fall into this as well.

Most 'religious' people I've known tend to fall into a broad category of people who I define as "people who believe because that's what you're supposed to do". They were raised with certain beliefs, it's what most other people they encounter believe, so there's no reason to rock the boat - it's almost an inertia-based worldview. Of course, this can only occur in individuals who don't engage in too much outer, or inner, reflection on larger questions. This does appear to be many people though.

There are clearly people who have explored themselves and the world deeply, and are believers, but this seems to be a minority, to me.

Most people I've encountered throughout my life who were 'religious' never seemed very impacted by their faith. They might attend church regularly, get their kids babtized, say grace before meals, but it all seems like a social habit/ritual with no larger meaning - like people following a script without really getting the story.

Based on this, I've always wondered how many people really believe? Not just a professed belief, but a conscious, explored understanding of what their belief is. As a corollary, can a belief be meaningful if it has never been questioned?

Does this ring true with anyone else? Does faith have any meaning if it's simply a social ritual/reflex?

How does one have "faith" without "social ritual/reflex"? Everything we as humans do is ritualistic. That's just how we are. Consequently, even things we find very valuable, we often do reflexively without even thinking about it. The old lady who hardly ever speaks, but crosses herself anytime she sees an ambulance, a cemetery, etc. probably has more faith and religion both than the most fire-breathing zealot.

I think the distinction you're drawing between faith and habit is too dualistic and unnatural. The two are quite fluid with one another, and thus influence one another. Granted some people really don't believe (it's all a cultural thing), but it's very hard to quantify what goes on in someone else's head, especially given that these two qualities feed off of each other.

Take myself, as an example. Some days, I find it easy to believe, some I do not. Some days, I "go through the motions", but other days, the motions actually draw out the belief. Faith is not static within individuals even without interacting with rituals. If anything, rituals usually indicate some faith, just as smoke indicates fire. It doesn't have to be a fire, but something keeps it that smoke puffing.

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Okay, ignoring all the personal attacks, how does your god communicate with you? Any examples that accually ammount to something. Please don't say you don't want to share them, I'm honestly curious about what you mean.

Mister Emu · Mar 7, 2009

Then is your god a fair god? How does an all-loving god play favorites like that?

Yes, God is fair... but as I said, His prime concern, as far as my theology goes, is not the mortal realm...

That the universe is eternal.

Ok, we agree then

The laws of biology tell us that any living creature takes time to develop and grow. But if god's outside of that, then it's anti-science and an appeal to irrationality.

Why would the laws of biology(which observes a natural progression of life in this universe) apply to a being outside of the universe and that ostensibly created this universe and the very laws of biology you are talking about?

Secondly, those laws only regard what we have observed, it does not speculate on the possible...

Thirdly, it is not anti-science... it is something in which science serves no purpose...

We don't know, but the fact is that the one's we do know that were prayed for werent helped.

The whole point is that for all you know the other group was prayed for too, and that any positive effect in either group is result of prayer... I'm not saying this is nessecarily the case, but you can't rule it out, because you can't say there is a group of people who haven't been prayed for to compare it to...

Yes, but like I said we work with what we know and from what we deducted, prayer had no effect.

But we don't know anything, so our deductions are inherently flawed and invalid...

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

Mister Emu said:
Yes, God is fair... but as I said, His prime concern, as far as my theology goes, is not the mortal realm...

Ok, I can live with that.

Ok, we agree then

Click to expand...

Cool. It's nice to agree on something, all the argueing gets tedious after a while.

Why would the laws of biology(which observes a natural progression of life in this universe) apply to a being outside of the universe and that ostensibly created this universe and the very laws of biology you are talking about?

Click to expand...

Because for me it's difficult to reconcile fact with fiction. If god is as powerful as he is, I don't see why he could be all-powerful and exist with out something to drive him to be as powerful as he is. I don't see how such a creature could of just allways been. Now if you applied Evolution to god and said he evolved you'd have a better arguement.

Secondly, those laws only regard what we have observed, it does not speculate on the possible...

Click to expand...

I'm not denying that it's not possible god exists, just unlikely. Highly improbable. The more improbable something is, the less likely it's true. Especially with the absence of any evidence.

Thirdly, it is not anti-science... it is something in which science serves no purpose...

Click to expand...

Accually, anything involving the supernatural and applying it to life is anti-science.

The whole point is that for all you know the other group was prayed for too, and that any positive effect in either group is result of prayer... I'm not saying this is nessecarily the case, but you can't rule it out, because you can't say there is a group of people who haven't been prayed for to compare it to...

Click to expand...

Why should we belive it with no evidance though? And again if god's answering some prayers and not others, how is this an all-loving god? There have been many more studies done that have shown prayer has no effect on people prayed for. If their prayer isn't being answered when the Bible says if you ask for things you shall get them then we can deduce that it's not true.

But we don't know anything, so our deductions are inherently flawed and invalid...

Click to expand...

I disagree. My contention here is that those who WERE prayed for werent healed.

Draka · Mar 7, 2009

DarkMaster24 said:
Okay, ignoring all the personal attacks, how does your god communicate with you? Any examples that accually ammount to something. Please don't say you don't want to share them, I'm honestly curious about what you mean.

You know what? I've shared such things before with people on this forum and in person. But really, I don't have any desire to share them with you. Why? Not because I'm making anything up or don't have anything to tell, but because I've watched you. Anything I say to you, no matter what it is, because of your adamant belief that deity is a delusion held by people, you will not only regard my experiences as delusional, but have no qualms in tearing apart and attacking anything I say. You attack that which you do not understand and I simply don't feel like putting the messages from the Divine through your heartless shredder techniques. Perhaps when you become honestly more understanding and open to people and treat them as if they are not all delusional idiots (which is exactly how you treat any theist - I don't know if you knew that) then perhaps I, and others, might seriously share with you. But honestly though, why share personal spiritual experiences with someone who does nothing but spit on them?

DarkMaster24 · Mar 7, 2009

That's ok, you don't ever have to do enough you're not ok with doing, I was just curious and I was no longer interested in argueing with you, just a discussion. You're right I do think belief in god is delusional, but you believe mine are too. I wouldn't intentionally do such a thing, but unfortunatly, sometimes I come off as a jerk, even though I go out of my way not to. I haven't treated you that way have I? No. But you haven't returned my gentle attitude, you've been attacking me personally for the entire time we've been argueing and that makes it unpleasant, which sucks because for the most part I've enjoyed my time on this site, and don't want to be insulted for defending my beliefs or lack thereof.

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