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For those of you looking for absolute proof that God exists....

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
The bible says if we have Jesus Christ just for this life we are to be pitied more then all man, my devotion and commitment to Christ is to escape his wrath and enter heaven.
If I gave up the pleasures in which I indulged in most of my life for a few good years of moral living ,only to go to a place we are all going,the grave, I am the biggest fool.
So next time a skeptic or atheists talks to, argues, etc. a christian, they may want to ask themself, that proverbial question,what if.
I personally have given up much of the indulgences,mindsets, attitudes and choices in this life, for Jesus, if you are a fellow player in this card game of life you might just wonder about my hand, why I am making such a wager.
 

LUKAS

New Member
the only real proof we have for god's existence is, to my knowledge: all of the cultures in all times have believed in something they called god or gods. people still believe in god even when they can't see him or feel thru the senses. second, htere must be a First Cause. I know, you may ask: if you say god created everything, even the universe, who created god? why couldn't we just say the universe created itself or it is infiit?" well, that sounds well, but it's illgical, by definition, god is not material, so, scientifically speaking, he (or she or it) must no be under the same rules that, all the other material objects are. we just don't know.
of course, I know I'm not proving scientifically the existence of god, I'm just saying it's not that stupid as you say. personally, I believe in god and I respect those who don't. we should all love each other as Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Brahma, Krishna and all the others say. who knows, it may be the same god communicating thru differnt persons...!!!
hope you like my message
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Majikthise said:
As have I.[/QUOT
When you say both sides of the fence, do you mean you were once a christian and /or believer, and then became an Atheist,
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Majikthise said:
God found it important to display his power by destroying Sodom and Gamora, flooding the entire world,making the image of jesus in a stain on a wall that many came to see,and making a statue weep blood.He is given credit on a daily basis for curing people of diseases and any other number of physical and mental ailments.

So why couldn't he have clogged the fuel lines on a couple of aircraft before they took off to crash into buildings or send a couple of extra millivolts through a missle guidance circuit board and send it into the sea intead of the side of a ship?Why couldn't John Salvi's guns have jammed?Why wouldn't he send a divine message to his pope to do something about this annoying child molestation thing?

Because he doesn't exsist.He's our own invention,just as satan is.
Do you say that about electricity, gravity, thermodynamics or wind or even lightening
You don't see them ,so you make assertions of such magnitude that indicate your omniscient (all seeing eye)
Just because you don't believe gravity exists does this make in non existent, perhaps for awhile, as you leap from 30 floors, you may say I can fly, this did'nt hurt, it won't bother me, this is not happening , ,nice liberal and relative thoughts, but they will change in time, when you hit the pavement and the reality enters in.
God says several times you won't find him if your not looking and that he has hid his face from the proud,he actually resists the proud
Just because you have no understanding or full knowledge of God,does'nt make Him non existent as a matter of fact you won't have understanding in the flesh of logical and rational thought, it just won't happen
You therefore must have all knowledge to make an absolute statement like that.
And I highly doubt that is the case, out of all the knowledge out there that you might know 1% of that knowledge and in the 99% knowledge that you have yet to come across, do you think there may be evidence of God.
Maybe you just are'nt looking for him or your running from him.

Do you think that if you were a father and and husband and gambled your finances away, cheated on your wife, abused your children, sold drugs etc, that your family who are innocent bystanders by the way and even your parents,siblings and friends won't suffer from your lifestyle behavior, not to mention yourself
You have the power through choice ,free will, and influence,and position to alter, hurt even eradicate those in your circle of influence.
Why is ther any exception to those who flew those planes into the buildings, maybe God had revealed himself to everyone in those planes that died and it was there appointed time to die, ( we don't know) we all have an appointment with death, and it usually is not plesant, the bible says,it just so happened that the innocent were under the influence and free will of thiose extremists and by their actions people died.

We'd be in a utopia society if God was to take ownership and responsibility for hinder everyone's actions, and no one would be responsible for their actions and behavior.
We have no idea how God keeps his hand on our lives daily we surely have no contriol over our destiny, If today is the day so it be
if God then destroyed those people , we would all very shortly be destroyed by him.
Because we all have done some very bad things to others at one point in our life,history has proven the potential capabilities and destructive powers that lurk within each of us.
We should not think we are without that inherent evil nature and that is why we need a savior,god say he is willing that none perish but all come to repentance thru faith in Christ.
Rom 2:4 do you despise the riches of his forbearance,longsuffering but your hard heart is storing up for you his wrath.. God is protecting us
Acts17:30 ... truly these times of ingnorance God overlooked but now commands men to repent ,for he has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness," according to his standard of right and wrong not ours
Matt 13:3-23 describes 4 different types of people who heard the word but fell away,this indicates the type of heart they recieved it on,1) the wayside,t2)he stoney ground,3) the thorny groundthose who at on point recieved God's word but fell away for various reasons...
Matt13:28 describes the two groups of people mixed together and how God will separate them
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Off topic Can someone tell me what the "frubals" mean,are they points or karma earned by doing good to others, if so who determines these karma reward points and what are the rewards
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
roli said:
Do you say that about electricity, gravity, thermodynamics or wind or even lightening

I have personally been zapped with 10,000 volts , fallen down on the odd occasion, cooked food ,flown a kite, and saw lightning strike a tree.

You don't see them ,so you make assertions of such magnitude that indicate your omniscient (all seeing eye)

You can see some , others just hurt like hell.

Just because you don't believe gravity exists does this make in non existent, perhaps for awhile, as you leap from 30 floors, you may say I can fly, this did'nt hurt, it won't bother me, this is not happening , ,nice liberal and relative thoughts, but they will change in time, when you hit the pavement and the reality enters in.

When did I say gravity doesn't exsist?

God says several times you won't find him if your not looking and that he has hid his face from the proud,he actually resists the proud

When I spoke to him he never said a word.

Just because you have no understanding or full knowledge of God,does'nt make Him non existent as a matter of fact you won't have understanding in the flesh of logical and rational thought, it just won't happen

Thank you for that insight.:sarcastic

You therefore must have all knowledge to make an absolute statement like that.
And I highly doubt that is the case, out of all the knowledge out there that you might know 1% of that knowledge and in the 99% knowledge that you have yet to come across, do you think there may be evidence of God.

No, nothing that hollywood couldn't make up.

Maybe you just are'nt looking for him or your running from him.

God is an invention of man's,There are only people who beleive in him hounding me.

Do you think that if you were a father and and husband and gambled your finances away, cheated on your wife, abused your children, sold drugs etc, that your family who are innocent bystanders by the way and even your parents,siblings and friends won't suffer from your lifestyle behavior, not to mention yourself

I am a father and a husband ,and an atheist.This is not my lifestyle behavior.I know christians who would find this hits close to home though.


You have the power through choice ,free will, and influence,and position to alter, hurt even eradicate those in your circle of influence.
Why is ther any exception to those who flew those planes into the buildings,

Because I am not driven by religion to commit such terrible acts.


maybe God had revealed himself to everyone in those planes that died and it was there appointed time to die

And maybe a big pink unicorn will appear in my back yard.


( we don't know) we all have an appointment with death, and it usually is not plesant, the bible says,it just so happened that the innocent were under the influence and free will of thiose extremists and by their actions people died.

The bible says.

We'd be in a utopia society if God was to take ownership and responsibility for hinder everyone's actions, and no one would be responsible for their actions and behavior.
We have no idea how God keeps his hand on our lives daily we surely have no contriol over our destiny, If today is the day so it be
if God then destroyed those people , we would all very shortly be destroyed by him.
Because we all have done some very bad things to others at one point in our life,history has proven the potential capabilities and destructive powers that lurk within each of us.
We should not think we are without that inherent evil nature and that is why we need a savior,god say he is willing that none perish but all come to repentance thru faith in Christ.
Rom 2:4 do you despise the riches of his forbearance,longsuffering but your hard heart is storing up for you his wrath.. God is protecting us
Acts17:30 ... truly these times of ingnorance God overlooked but now commands men to repent ,for he has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness," according to his standard of right and wrong not ours
Matt 13:3-23 describes 4 different types of people who heard the word but fell away,this indicates the type of heart they recieved it on,1) the wayside,t2)he stoney ground,3) the thorny groundthose who at on point recieved God's word but fell away for various reasons...
Matt13:28 describes the two groups of people mixed together and how God will separate them
"Remember, there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

" A mind is like a parachute,it doesn't work if not open."

"If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you , fine---but to hang all the desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book,who knows if you've been bad or good--and CARES about any of it--to hang it all on that,folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working."

The Wit and Wisdom of Frank Zappa

Everybody has an angle,god is just one of them.
Me:D
 

cturne

servant of God
If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you , fine---but to hang all the desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book,who knows if you've been bad or good--and CARES about any of it--to hang it all on that,folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working."
I have assurance of eternal life in heaven because God has promised it to me and all believers. God also says unbelievers do not go to heaven. There is another place for them - eternal suffering. So.... let's just suppose.... the non-believers are right, and there is no God - so what happens when I die? I go into the ground and rot, end of story. Now, conversely - what if the believers are right? The unbelievers will have a nasty surprise.

I think that if you believe in God, you see absolute proof that he exists everywhere. If you refuse to believe, you refuse to see the proof. Can anyone absolutely prove that God does not exist?
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
I have assurance of eternal life in heaven because God has promised it to me and all believers. God also says unbelievers do not go to heaven. There is another place for them - eternal suffering. So.... let's just suppose.... the non-believers are right, and there is no God - so what happens when I die? I go into the ground and rot, end of story. Now, conversely - what if the believers are right? The unbelievers will have a nasty surprise.

I think that if you believe in God, you see absolute proof that he exists everywhere. If you refuse to believe, you refuse to see the proof. Can anyone absolutely prove that God does not exist?
That argument is very flawed.

For instance, what if the God of Islam is the right one? You then burn.

What if the God of Judaism is the right one? Then you burn.

What if the God of Zoroaster is the right one? Then... Well, I don't know what'll happen, but it might not be pleasant. ;)

If my Gods are the "right" ones? Well, everyone makes mistakes. You've probably been a good person, and will be rewarded for it. If you've been bad, well, perhaps you'll move down a realm. Either way, no permanent torture.
 

rivenrock

Member
Geoman076 said:
You will never get that, because God is not allowed to give it.

God is love
Love has to contain 100% free will

If you had a child, you could very easily lock him in the basement for his whole life to "keep him safe". But would this be love? Of course not! God must give you just enough info that if you want to, you can find him, but not enough as to take away your free will to reject him.
Two things:
1. Why does love have to contain 100% free will? What do you mean by that? Can you explain the idea in more detail? How did you come to the conclusion that love has to contain 100% free will?
2. Why would knowing for sure that God exists take away our free will?
 

rivenrock

Member
Saw11_2000 said:
I have moral law, but it is moral law dictated by what society feels acceptable, not what God writes on to my heart.
A person's sense of moral law is determined by society's dictates? How then have so many throughout history opposed the moral laws of their societies? You may not agree that it comes from God, but there is definitely more to our moral sense than society's whims.
 

rivenrock

Member
yourdogisonfire said:
...but why the silence? It's like he's testing us. Testing to see if we can "make it through" without his guidance. What kind of love is that? Don't get me wrong. I love God and Jesus, and will until I die. I just have come to question why he feels that we must be tested at all angles. Things go wrong? No VISIBLE Godly interference.
Some assumptions here.
1. That God is silent.
2. That we do not have his guidance.
Some people believe in modern day apostles and prophets and in modern day revelation. Also, I'm not Catholic, but I'm also pretty sure that many of the Catholics who waited anxiously for the decision on the new Pope believe that he gets inspiration from God, too.

Maybe it feels like he's testing us because he is - but not to see if we can get by without him. We have his teachings, we have prayer and personal revelation. What makes you think we are expected to get through without his guidance?

As for the question of why things go wrong without God appearing and fixing it, that's enough for a whole new topic. But as a short answer I'll say this: why would God show up to fix the world, when we are capable of doing that ourselves? In this day and age we have unprecented ability to know what is going on in our world. We have sufficient resources for all - we developed nations just overuse resources and then convince ourselves that there isn't enough to go around. Maybe God wants us to use all that free will he's given us to LIVE his teachings and make the world a better place. Maybe that's what the test is all about.

Also, I think sometimes we see things as tragedies that God does not. For example, recently a tsunami resulted in a lot of death and destruction and several newspaper editorials claimed that this was evidence that God does not exist. Yet is death (not caused deaths like murder, but 'death' itself - the simple thing of someone dying) a tragedy from God's perspective? As for homes and economies, these things can be rebuilt. I think that many in the world passed a 'test' when that tragedy happened. A natural disaster occurred and a massive number of people and nations came to the aid of those affected. There was an amazing outpouring of compassion and assistance.
 

cturne

servant of God
That argument is very flawed.

For instance, what if the God of Islam is the right one? You then burn.

What if the God of Judaism is the right one? Then you burn.

What if the God of Zoroaster is the right one? Then... Well, I don't know what'll happen, but it might not be pleasant. ;)

If my Gods are the "right" ones? Well, everyone makes mistakes. You've probably been a good person, and will be rewarded for it. If you've been bad, well, perhaps you'll move down a realm. Either way, no permanent torture.
Well, I'll anger a lot of people by saying this, but there is overwhelming evidence that the Bible is the true Word of God, versus the books of other religions. For some insight, see http://www.bibleevidences.com/ if you wish. I know I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind by sending them to some website, or by saying anything, really, in this forum. But maybe, just maybe, it will give someone something to think about, and if even one soul is saved by something I post, then it's all worth it. Attack away, I believe what I believe, and I pray for the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts of those who do not.

By the way, being a good person isn't going to get me any 'reward'. I try to do good to show my love for my Saviour, but it's grace alone that gives me salvation. I am nothing but a miserable sinner who deserves only death and punishment. So I praise God for sending his Son as a ransom for our souls.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
rivenrock said:
A person's sense of moral law is determined by society's dictates? How then have so many throughout history opposed the moral laws of their societies? You may not agree that it comes from God, but there is definitely more to our moral sense than society's whims.
I read both your replies; Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly on your response to Yourdogsonfire, I think you might like to consider a scenario.

Imagine (for sake of argument) that a couple of dozen completely brainwashed humans were dropped onto a desert Island; I think that you would find that they would eventually (Probably quite a short time in fact) end up with rules such as the ten commandements (With the exception of the ones pertaining to God-they might in fact refer to the one human who fought his way to leadership.)

It makes sense; the first guy who gets the idea to shin up a palm to get himself a coconut, because he has pangs of hunger isn't going to be too keen on the one who tries to take it off him-Thou shalt not steal...etc:)
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
rivenrock said:
Maybe it feels like he's testing us because he is - but not to see if we can get by without him. We have his teachings, we have prayer and personal revelation. What makes you think we are expected to get through without his guidance?
You appear to be all over the map in your posts. Are you saying that God exists, and the proof is the Bible? I am an Agnostic, and I have to say that your assertion that God is with us in the form of prayer and personal revelation is disquieting, at best. If God is providing His guidance through prayer and personal revelation, He might consider focusing the guidance a little more precisely. Why lead some to pray to false God's? Why reveal himself to one man as the Judeo-Christian God, as Allah to someone else, the cornucopia of various incarnations held by the Eastern religions, and not at all to others? Rather curious, if He exists.



rivenrock said:
... why would God show up to fix the world, when we are capable of doing that ourselves?
I'll take three stabs at this one:
1) He can fix the world with a simple snap of the fingers, if He exists and so chooses.
2) We have clearly demonstrated that we are INcapable of "fixing" the world (in any interpretation that you choose to assign that statement).
3) As a clear sign to the Agnostics and Atheists that we are on the wrong path.
Take any of those three - they are all equally good reasons that God might choose to show up...



rivenrock said:
In this day and age we have unprecented ability to know what is going on in our world. We have sufficient resources for all - we developed nations just overuse resources and then convince ourselves that there isn't enough to go around. Maybe God wants us to use all that free will he's given us to LIVE his teachings and make the world a better place. Maybe that's what the test is all about.
Maybe He doesn't exist and this isn't really a test.



rivenrock said:
Also, I think sometimes we see things as tragedies that God does not. For example, recently a tsunami resulted in a lot of death and destruction and several newspaper editorials claimed that this was evidence that God does not exist.
This goes right back to the Riddle of Epicurus that Deut has posted http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7655&highlight=Riddle+Epicurus. If God does not see the death, pain and suffering of innocent lives (including children) such as that caused by the Tsunami as a tragedy, why in the world would you call Him God and choose to worship Him?




rivenrock said:
Yet is death a tragedy from God's perspective?
Not if He doesn't exist. If I am to believe in and worship a God, he will need to be both compassionate and just. I have yet to meet such a God, perhaps because He has decided not to reveal Himself to me. Until such time that He chooses to do so, I'll persist in my Agnosticism.



rivenrock said:
I think that many in the world passed a 'test' when that tragedy happened.
And sadly, I think the various God's that many choose to worship failed one.

TVOR
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Octurne said:
Well, I'll anger a lot of people by saying this, but there is overwhelming evidence that the Bible is the true Word of God, versus the books of other religions.
That is an incredibly bad case of circular reasoning. Even someone that has had absolutely no training in logic can identify the weakness in the reasoning that:
The Bible is the Word of God, and the proof is in the Bible.
You could not possibly give a better example of the fallacy of Begging the Question. I suggest that you believe that the Bible is the true Word of God because you were raised in a family and societal setting that taught you that, and you have not questioned it openly, rationally, and honestly. Nothing wrong with clinging to your dogma - just be honest about how you come to your position. The phrase "revealed faith" is most apropos.



Octurne said:
I am nothing but a miserable sinner who deserves only death and punishment.
Self flagellation at it's finest.

TVOR
 

rivenrock

Member
Faust said:
I'm still having problems with God not being allowed to do something.
That suggests a higher power than God.
Whats up with that? ... What power or authority is above God in your belief system?
I believe that there are eternal principles of right and wrong that God chooses to adhere to.
This is not about higher authority per se, but about things that simply are true. I believe that God understands those principles and abides by them.

I have always found those 'can God build a rock so heavy he can't lift it?' discussions to be missing the point. I don't want a God who is so powerful that he can do arbitrarily do evil and call it right. I don't think any God should be more powerful than truth.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
rivenrock said:
I believe that there are eternal principles of right and wrong that God chooses to adhere to. This is not about higher authority per se, but about things that simply are true. I believe that God understands those principles and abides by them.
That's nice. Do you have any reasons for such a belief?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
rivenrock said:
I don't want a God who is so powerful that he can do arbitrarily do evil and call it right. I don't think any God should be more powerful than truth.
I am not mocking you, rivenrock, only asking the obvious question -
Do your wants and thoughts on the attributes of God somehow change His nature or powers?

TVOR
 
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