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Does the God of the Bible...

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The interesting thing that Scripture says is that although the creation may not be slam-dunk proof, it is enough evidence to render every human without excuse when they stand before Him one day.
So what you are saying is that an all powerful being, one that used to constantly and directly interact with the lives of His followers, completely disappears saying that the existence of the earth itself is sufficient evidence to prove he exists?
 
ayani, I have to be direct here, but: you and your fellow religionists have swallowed a lie. A pernicious lie. There could be nothing more twisted than to have taken in the notion that ANYONE deserves hell, let alone every person for just being born human.

Christianity operates like any con man, or the typical abusive boy friend or husband. It sells you the disease in order to sell you the cure. Many people wonder why so many woman stay with abusive partners. It just doesn't seem reasonable. Why not "just leave?"

Well, because there are powerful psychological tricks at play. Very often the woman has been convinced (usually by the abuser) that she is worthless. Undeserving. Undeserving of anyone's love and attention but..."Even though you're a miserable wretch and don't deserve it, you have me: I'll love you, even though you don't deserve it. I'm your only hope, so you have to stay with me if you want forgiveness and love!"

Similar techniques are used by cults: the cult leader "puts the followers in their place," gives some ridiculous story about how if they don't kiss up to him they are doomed, and offers them "love" in return.

It's obvious to any outside observer that the abused woman and the cult devotee ought to escape. But the psychological, cognitive tricks...once taken in, once made part of "who the person is"...are just that powerful.

Christianity is (in many of it's forms) a more popular form of this trick.

"Admit you are a sinner! You must acknowledge it. You aren't WORTHY..don't even DESERVE the love of your maker. In fact YOU DESERVE HELL! But...don't worry...admit you are a sinner, absorb that
picture of yourself...and now...VOILA!...the cure...here's Jesus! Pledge your life to him and he'll love you...EVEN though we all understand you don't deserve it!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU JESUS! I'm so grateful!

And then you combine that type of powerful psychological manipulation - which often is most effective when people are at their weakest or lowest points - with a host of other in-built tricks that effectively shield the religious assumptions from real critical scrutiny - e.g. "Who are We to question God?" - and you have a psychological web that is very hard to escape.

People outside Christianity can see these "confidence tricks" a mile away. Just like any Christian can see a cult member ought to get out, or an abused women. But the Christians can't see their own situation.

Until some of them are lucky enough to wake up, look back and see clearly all the cognitive tricks, the religious strategies, they had routinely absorbed from other members of their religion, to perpetuate their religious beliefs. Seems obvious once you are out of it.

I hope you can open your eyes some more ayani: ask yourself whether it matters that what you believe is true or not. And if it does matter to you, you should be questioning your most basic religious assumptions...whether it's even reasonable to hold them.

Question whether it's actually reasonable to take the tale of one ancient desert tribe - among all the religious, superstitious delusions of human history - as somehow veridical. Does it REALLY make sense to do so? And don't start from an assumption the biblical God is a good character. That's not the way to actually examine whether that belief make sense. Try REALLY reading the bible, asking "Is it actually the most reasonable inference from the description of what this God character says and does, that He would actually be The Moral Standard? Does the bible actually READ like that God is the Wisest person one could ever imagine?

Not when you realise how many things God says that sound as limited and non-omniscient as any other person...and not when God seems to share pretty much the same limited moral horizon as the ancient people who wrote the stories (e.g. God doesn't seem any more enlightened about slavery being a bad idea than...well...the ancient person writing that story). Not, when you are reading what is purportedly the message of the Most Wise Being Of All, you secretly find yourself wondering if what He just said was really all that wise...and find yourself looking for excuses to either ignore certain of the portions concerning this All Wise Being...or looking for how other Christians excused them.

That shouldn't be happening - there shouldn't even BE an apologetics industry - if the bible really did represent the best we have on morality, the wisest anyone has ever been! Wouldn't the wisest of all books stand the test of time, rather than create a flourishing industry of people making EXCUSES for what it says and trying to say to each other "Really...this part looks bad but we can ignore it because X or it really has to mean Y..."

Certainly religion has it's compensations: the social network, and some of the story can fit some emotional desires or needs. But it's often when someone de-converts that the other side of the coin - the negatives - of having been Christian come into relief: Living a life believing, worrying, about an entire supernatural realm, in which your fate lies, that doesn't even exist. Grappling with all those vexing (if you are a thinking person) theological conundrums "Why would God do X?..." Trying to constantly juggle the supernatural beliefs you've been handed against the constant
oppression of real-world facts. The flourishing of time consuming and unnecessary "why" questions that naturally arise when you posit the fiction that a Supernatural Person is behind reality. (An earthquake that kills people is a natural tragedy and it's natural to inquire how they occur...but positing a God attaches to EVERY such instance an additional question: "Why?").

Many who de-convert find themselves actually relieved of all the superstitions, religious, mental baggage that they carried...just assumed...along with their religious belief.

Perhaps the not-so-obvious question to you is, Where does your authority come from? A guy comes up to me and says it is his opinion that the ultimate truth is found on the back side of planet Wazoo, and that God will soon kill all those who believe differently. On what authority can you tell him that your view is superior to his? I don't say this disrespectfully, but what gives you authority to make statements of ultimate truth about God or man? And is that an important question to you?
 
So what you are saying is that an all powerful being, one that used to constantly and directly interact with the lives of His followers, completely disappears saying that the existence of the earth itself is sufficient evidence to prove he exists?

That wasn't exactly what I said, but that is the essence of it. Amazingly, written in what I think may be the most profound piece of writing in existence (Paul's letter to the Romans) is that statement that says somehow God has seen to it that the soul of a man knows God exists as a result of observing the created order.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
That wasn't exactly what I said, but that is the essence of it. Amazingly, written in what I think may be the most profound piece of writing in existence (Paul's letter to the Romans) is that statement that says somehow God has seen to it that the soul of a man knows God exists as a result of observing the created order.
Paul was wrong.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
ayani, I have to be direct here, but: you and your fellow religionists have swallowed a lie. A pernicious lie.
You poor negatively filled little monster, if you had known who you were, you might have come to understand who God is, for ‘who you are’ was in the beginning and one with the infinitely dense, and hot, infinitesimally small primordial Atom.

The Alpha, which has become all that exists including ‘Who You Are,’ is capable of comprehending the invisible mind that is you, the junior spirit that is developing in that living body which is the evolving house of your ancestral God, which developing spirit (You) has rejected Him, your evolving ancestral God who is joined to his beginning by an unbroken genetic thread of life, He is, He was, and He will always be.

But you, who have rejected him and do not wish to be an extension of the eternal being who is “Who You Are,’ are doomed to forever remain locked in the eternal re-occurring few years of your wormlike existence in the every evolving oscillating universal being.

One day the great scientific minds, in which you place your faith, will discover that, which the greater religious minds have known before even the days of the ancient Egyptians.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

Origen, who was well versed in the writings of Enoch, from whose words, Moses formulation the religion of the Israelites, was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

The nights and days of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day.

In the Black Hole from which all originated, there is neither space nor time, remove all space from every Atom in the universe, and all that exists can be compressed into the primordial Atom of Origin.

The Hindu ‘Brahman and the Biblical ‘Logos,’ are one and the same. The root to the word Brahman originally meant “Speech” or that which expresses all the gathered information, and the Logos, is translated the “Word,” which is again the medium through which the gathered information is expressed.

But the Logos, as with Brahman, is that from which all things came into existence, by which all things came into existence and for which all things exist. The Logos as with Brahman, is the invisible and divine reality of the universe; the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return, before bursting forth to be resurrected again to carry on its eternal process of evolution or growth.

The swirling cloud of ever changing patterns of vibrating and dancing wave particles which have neither mass or electric charge, is the repository of all the gathered information of the aeons, and is manifested through our created physical senses, as the visible boundless Cosmos. And the Most High who has developed in the eternal Cosmic body, and who is capable of gaining dominion over all other life forms, visible and invisible, is the ruling Godhead, within the eternal and boundless body that is God.

The first Book of the Hebrews, speaks of the first seven periods of universal activity, and reveals that Mankind was created in the sixth period. Genesis 2: 4, In reference to the six periods of creation and the seventh period of rest which we are still in, states, “These are the generations of the universe.”
The word ‘Generation’ in this verse is translated from the Hebrew “Toledoth,” a word used 39 times in the Old testament, and in each and every case, it is used in reference to descendants, such as, “These are the generations of the Universe,” and “These are the generations of Adam, or “these are the generations of Abraham, etc.

So the second generation of the evolving universe came from the first period of activity in which only the first generation stars were formed and the third generation universal body came from the second etc, but in reality, we are looking at the every stages of the development of the greater cycle of the ever evolving, eternal and boundless Cosmos.

Enoch was the only exception of all mankind to have ascended to the end of all things, and to have witnessed the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the great Bottomless black Abyss, which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

And it is written in the words of righteous Enoch, that God created an eighth day also (The eternal cosmic cycle in which the seven foetal stages of each universal Son of God are forever repeated) and it is a day eternal, in which there is neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time shall be stuck together in one aeon and all who enter therein shall be surrounded by great light and they shall know peace. For man who was created a little lower than the angels, is to be crowned with glory and will spread throughout the entire cosmos to rule all the heavenly beings, visible and invisible.

This we have seen in the first fruits to be harvested from the earth, the brilliant and blinding light body of the resurrected man Jesus, for as most religions tell us, which includes the Christian Paul, who says, “We shall not all fall asleep in death, but at the sound of the last trumpet, we shall be changed from bodies of corruptible matter into bodies of incorruptible light. Goodbye little MONSTER, goodbye.
 
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Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
A wicked generation requires a sign....the only sign that is given to it is the sign of jonah.... which is REPENT.

For those who have turned their heart turned towards god, eager to find him, humbled by his greatness, in awe of his character...for them he is pretty much all over them.

Heneni




:faint:
 

craigishburn

New Member
God 'Knows Everything' but God does not know what Religion (Christianity/Islam etc) we have.
God looks only upon our heart, our thoughts, our SOURCE OF MOTIVATION.
You may never have heard of Jesus or Allah, yet mey be God's chosen.
The outer forms of religion are 'Kindergarten Spirituality', those who know God are never to be exclusively pinned to such limited institutions........
Remember Jesus was a Jew who transcended his Jewish Religion, Muhammad was a businessman who transcended idolatry, The Buddha was a Prince who transcended Hinduism.
Very few people raised in a 'Religion' seem to have the feintest idea about 'True Religion'.......
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
it's not a matter of what they have done. it's a matter of Whom they have believed.
I think you are missing his point, ayani. The point is, What made the Christian (before he was a Christian) so special that he just happened to choose the correct religion? The question of whether we have the choice to believe or not aside, the fact still stands that some people are given overwhelming advantage in becoming a Christian, and others are given an overwhelming disadvantage to becoming a Christian.

According to you, God simply rewards you for happening to choose the correct religion to follow. Nevermind that you were raised in a Christian household in a relatively Christian nation. Nevermind that Abdul chose wrong because he was raised in a Muslim household in a Muslim nation. The Christian deserves heaven because of good luck, and the Muslim deserves hell because of bad luck. Doesn't that seem a bit unfair and haphazard to you?

Know the Truth said:
The interesting thing that Scripture says is that although the creation may not be slam-dunk proof, it is enough evidence to render every human without excuse when they stand before Him one day.

Obviously it is not enough proof, otherwise there would not be people who doubt today. If there was some solid evidence of God, that no one in their heart-of-hearts could deny, then that would make every athiest and agnostic among us a liar. To what purpose would we self-delude ourselves? Doesn't it make more sense that we honest-to-goodness can't see such conclusive evidence?

Futhermore, even if the world was a testament to God, it would merely point to a Creator-God. It hardly points to the Christian God, or the idea that we must believe in Jesus to save our immortal soul. What then?
 

danny vee

Member
Are you saying that all those people who have had near death, I repeat, NEAR death experiences, are now all devout christians?
Lazarus, whose body has long since retured to the universal elements from which it was formed, also had one of those NDE's.


No, not all are devout Christians, but I challenge you to find a person who has had an NDE, and believed themselves that it was not real.

Spoken by Peter, Acts 10: 40, “But God raised him from death three days later and caused him to appear, not to everyone, but only to the witnesses that God had already chosen, that is, to us (The Twelve) who ate and drank with him after he rose from death.”
Only the twelve saw the risen body of the man Jesus with the holes in his hands and feet and the gash in his side.


Your quote does not claim your opinion to be true. Peter said God would appear to the ones he had chosen, but he never said the apostles were the only ones God chose.

Paul saw a body of light more brilliant than the sun which blinded him, and heard a voice say, ”I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute," but he did not see the risen body of the man Jesus, and neither did anyone else apart from the twelve chosen ones.
If God had to allow the risen body of Jesus to appear and to eat and drink with the 12 disciples before they would believe in the resurrection, why does he not allow us to see him too, in order that we might also believe?

If you claim that Paul did not see the risen body of Jesus, then why does Paul say himself in 1Cor 15:8 "But last of all He appeared to me"? And why would Paul say that 500 people saw Jesus, if they didn't? Also, God has given us proof, and it is our choice to believe. People say, "Oh I would believe if this and this happened right now." They don't understand that there is enough to believe in already, and not only in the Bible. If people search they will find. However, I am curious, where did you get your idea that we will all return to be parts of the Universe?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
it's not a matter of what they have done. it's a matter of Whom they have believed.
Which is something that they have done.

to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and to decide that He alone is worthy to be known and followed is what brings God's grace flooding in. no person, wherever they come from, whatever good or evil they may have done, whatever faith they may have professed and followed, all of that is rendered null in light of Jesus' grace, and the inpouring of the Holy Spirit. the person is new, and reconciled to God.

now, what this means is that the new believer is in fact a new person. free, in Christ, to live for God and to live for one's fellow man in a new way. his relationship to God is different, exactly because through and in the Son, He knows God in a new, bright, and graced way. it's a kind of love between the believer and God which is uniquely Christ-given.

this doesn't mean that God doesn't see and acknowledge the sincerity and good works of others. He does. but good works can not reconcile us spiritually to the God who made us.

so what matters more to God? ultimately we are judged by our fruits. yet we can be saved / reconciled personally to God only through faith in Christ. a Christian will bear Christ-like fruits and have the spiritual difference of knowing God through His Son. a non-Christian can bear Christ-like fruits, yet the indwelling of the Holy Spirit won't be there. a professed Christian, whether or not he has believed, who dirties the name of Christ by bearing no Christian fruit, like the fruitless tree, will be chopped down, regardless of faith label.
You still have not told me what Christians are doing that all non-Christians are not doing that will cause God to favour them. You just keep telling me that they "accepted Christ" or that "they were right". These are not reasons. A Muslim has accepted Islam just as passionately and as honestly as you have accepted Christ. There is NO difference, apart from who is right - which is completely irrelevant, since that is out of everyone's control.

You are saying that God punishes and reward based on our religious beleifs, REGARDLESS of how they came to have these beleifs, that - which ever way you look at it - is not fair. The key word there is regardless. There are people who are trying harder to find truth than some Christians. There are people who are better people than some Christians. To say that the Christians who tried LESS and who are lesser people will be favoured by God makes no sense.

If you do believe that God will favour Christians over all non-Christian then you have to tell me what they are doing better or more reward worthy. And "they were right" is not an answer. Being right about something does not automatically deserve a reward and being wrong about something does not automatically deserve a punishment. You have to tell me what they are doing better (in God eyes) that is causing them to be right. And there is no answer. Christians just believe that God will send people to hell or heaven, based on whether or not beleifs they held were true or false. Its saying that God punishes/rewards based on sheer luck. It saying that God punishes/rewards based on things that were out of our control. Its saying that it is all just one big guessing game. It makes no sense.
 
I think you are missing his point, ayani. The point is, What made the Christian (before he was a Christian) so special that he just happened to choose the correct religion? The question of whether we have the choice to believe or not aside, the fact still stands that some people are given overwhelming advantage in becoming a Christian, and others are given an overwhelming disadvantage to becoming a Christian.

According to you, God simply rewards you for happening to choose the correct religion to follow. Nevermind that you were raised in a Christian household in a relatively Christian nation. Nevermind that Abdul chose wrong because he was raised in a Muslim household in a Muslim nation. The Christian deserves heaven because of good luck, and the Muslim deserves hell because of bad luck. Doesn't that seem a bit unfair and haphazard to you?



Obviously it is not enough proof, otherwise there would not be people who doubt today. If there was some solid evidence of God, that no one in their heart-of-hearts could deny, then that would make every athiest and agnostic among us a liar. To what purpose would we self-delude ourselves? Doesn't it make more sense that we honest-to-goodness can't see such conclusive evidence?

Futhermore, even if the world was a testament to God, it would merely point to a Creator-God. It hardly points to the Christian God, or the idea that we must believe in Jesus to save our immortal soul. What then?

What you don't understand is that faith is a CHOICE, based on evidence. But you are right, the created order will not lead a man to Jesus, however his response to that evidence can prepare him to hear about Jesus and then make his choice.
 
What are you talking about?
Authority?
It is my opinion.
I need not anyone or any things authority.


Exactly. Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one! The question is, can we know anything for certain about life and death and eternity. The existentialists, after centuries of enlightenment, rationalism, empiricism, etc, decided that you cant know ANYTHING for certain. So they did the next logical thing: They despaired and pronounced that it doesn't matter whether there is truth or not. Just choose something for YOUR truth, and that becomes truth! What do you think about that?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
I think you are missing his point, ayani. The point is, What made the Christian (before he was a Christian) so special that he just happened to choose the correct religion? The question of whether we have the choice to believe or not aside, the fact still stands that some people are given overwhelming advantage in becoming a Christian, and others are given an overwhelming disadvantage to becoming a Christian.

This is exactly what I mean. People are automatically assuming that being right deserves a reward, simply because you were right. This may be true in this life, but life is not fair. Obviously in this life people are often rewarded for getting things right, regardless of how they came to be right. But like I said, life is nowhere near fair, but God would be.

And a Hindu who has tried harder to find truth, who has searched more honestly and passionately to find truth, who has looked into other religions and really tried to be right, is in God eyes a MUCH better person than the average Christian who has never really looked into any other religion, who has never really tried, who just has "faith" that they are right and if they are, they deserve a reward. Yeah well good luck getting into heaven because "I WAS RIGHT!".

According to you, God simply rewards you for happening to choose the correct religion to follow. Nevermind that you were raised in a Christian household in a relatively Christian nation. Nevermind that Abdul chose wrong because he was raised in a Muslim household in a Muslim nation. The Christian deserves heaven because of good luck, and the Muslim deserves hell because of bad luck. Doesn't that seem a bit unfair and haphazard to you?

ayani, look at it from this perspective. Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is in fact the true religion. God tells you that you are going to be punished simply because you refused the offer of Islam. He is going to reward millions of people who tried LESS than you to find truth ONLY because they accepted the offer of Islam. Do you feel like this God was being fair? This is EXACTLY how you are saying your God is. You are saying that God rewards those who guess right and punishes those who guess wrong. Whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is nothing but sheer luck. You are saying God punishes/rewards based on these beleifs that are based on faith. Therefore, you are saying that God punishes/rewards based on sheer luck. Unless of course, you can give me JUST ONE THING that Christians are doing better. Are they trying harder?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
What you don't understand is that faith is a CHOICE, based on evidence. But you are right, the created order will not lead a man to Jesus, however his response to that evidence can prepare him to hear about Jesus and then make his choice.

Whether or not belief is a choice is completely irrelevant.
 

ayani

member
You have to tell me what they are doing better (in God eyes) that is causing them to be right.

they have believed in His Son, trusted Him, and live now as His disciples and ambassadors.

that might sound really weird, but from a Christian perspective, it's true.

from John's Gospel :

"As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Now remain in My love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love. I have told you this so that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete". (John 15:9-11)

so when one believes in and dedicates one's self to Jesus, one's relationship to God changes. there's a personal connection of love through the Son which binds and seals the heart.

that doesn't mean God doesn't love deeply those who don't know His Son. but it's a different kind of love.

it's not a matter of sheer luck, Holdem. having the chance of being born into a Christian family doesn't make one Christian. and Christian discipleship isn't based on guess work, or randomly picking "the right" way out of millions of options.

to believe is something we do, true. but the faith has to come in response to something heard or given. a person has to hear the Gospel before they can believe. one has to be called by God- brought to the place where one can hear, and accept. so really, it's all His grace. we respond by faith, yet His will and hand gets us to the point where we can say "yes".

it may sound like a weird concept, but then salvation by faith and grace is a truly weird concept for a lot of people. i never used to understand it. it doesn't seem like simply putting one's faith in a prophet from Nazareth can do and change so much, but it does.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Exactly. Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one! The question is, can we know anything for certain about life and death and eternity. The existentialists, after centuries of enlightenment, rationalism, empiricism, etc, decided that you cant know ANYTHING for certain. So they did the next logical thing: They despaired and pronounced that it doesn't matter whether there is truth or not. Just choose something for YOUR truth, and that becomes truth! What do you think about that?
Beats standing around offering a truth you cannot possibly know is true.
You are required to have faith because there is no proof.

You choose to make your chosen deity your authority.
But you cannot know that there is actually any authority for your chosen deity to give.
You have to have faith because there is no proof.

See a pattern yet?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
What you don't understand is that faith is a CHOICE, based on evidence.

Saying that faith is simply a choice is like saying it is a choice to like sushi.

If you were born in Japan, it is a lot more likely that you will like sushi than if you were born in England.
 

idea

Question Everything
Does the God of the Bible withhold evidence that would convince more people to accept him?


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(New Testament | Matthew13:10 - 15)

Only those who can handle the info are given the info...

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(New Testament | Luke12:47 - 48)

We are accountable for what we know. To give people info they cannot act on would be cruel.
 
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