I'm confused

Zardoz · Feb 1, 2009

Yes, I'm a bit confused about this forum, mostly why it's here. Sure, I understand why it's in Christianity as it won't be allowed in the Jewish forums. I would think it wrong to force ourselves on the mainstream Jewish denominations, against their will. However, does the term 'Judaism' in Messianic Judaism have to be completely disregarded? Look where we are... not just under the Christian forum, but under the sub-forum Protestantism! I for one... now this is just MHO... never ever EVER think of myself as any kind of Protestant. If this forum was labeled 'Hebrew Christian' then it would not be a problem, as that term implies a religious Christianity combined with a cultural Jewishness. I know such people and while I wish them well I certainly don't perceive myself in that way. I'm a Messianic Jew, emphasis on Jew. I am not alone. So it's not surprising to me that there is only one thread here less than a year old and even it is 3 months old. This forum, where it is, is not conducive to Messianic Jews utilizing it as it should... for fellowship. What Jew would wish to post here? It doesn't fit. I won't... no.... can't... use it for fellowship. What I have to say sometimes is simply not for Gentile Christians. It's not that I feel superior in any way, but simply they have a different frame of reference and will misunderstand or misinterpret what I say. My position is easy to undertand, just read Green Gaia's exellent overview and know I am from what that poster calls 'The "Torah"-pole'

So... what to do. Surely renaming this forum 'Hebrew Christianty' will be more accurate and solve a lot of problems, but where does that leave us Messianic Jews? Speaking for myself... I would want a DIR forum... anywhere but here. Literally anywhere. Out of Christianity even, but that would upset those more centrist members. Perhaps all the way up under Abrahamic Religions would be ideal, as that would cause no controversy. Indeed, my aim here, in my first post, is NOT to cause controversy but to find a home that is acceptable. Is this asking too much? If Baha'i and Rastafari are there, why not us too? But then again, anywhere would be fine, that is anywhere but here. Nothing personal, as you see. JMHO, no insult intended.

Buttercup · Feb 1, 2009

HI Zardoz...welcome to RF

You might want to private message one of the moderators (blue names) and either forward the post above or explain again the problem with Messianic Judaism being under this sub category. I'm sure they'd be willing to move it.

Zardoz · Feb 2, 2009

Thank you for your advice. I may do that in the near future but I wish to first post this issue publicly as I surely do not have the only opinion. I have actually lurked here a while, and I know there are other active members that identify themselves as Messianic Jews. I hope they see this and contribute their own opinion. These members do not post here either, but I should not be so arrogant as to assume that is for the same reason I find this forum's venue unacceptable.

Stellify · Feb 2, 2009

Umm...Ok, so I'm curious. I understand that you don't consider yourself a Protestant. I had a good friend who was a Messianic Jew and I think that would have been the last label she would have given herself. Like you, she put emphasis on "Jew".
BUT, here's my question (and please correct me if I'm wrong..I'm definitely not well-versed in Messianic Judaism

) :

So, Messianic Jews believe in Christ, correct? And as such, could be considered a type of Christian.

But, it's obviously not Roman Catholicism, so...doesn't that mean it could also be considered a type of Protestantism? From my understanding, the term Protestant is often used simply to describe any type of Christianity that isn't Roman Catholicism. So...doesn't the placing of this section of the forum seem correct if that's the logic that was used? :shrug:

I'm just trying to understand why you seem so offended.

I mean...what's so bad about being in this section? You say "anywhere else" like you can't stand the idea of Protestants or something :cover:

I think you should definitely talk to one of the staff members if it's that important to you. They're usually more than willing to help

Edit: Just wanted to reiterate that I'm not trying to be insulting or anything! I'm genuinely curious and somewhat confused myself

wmam · Feb 2, 2009

Zardoz, I couldn't agree more with you. Don't you just hate it when others put a label on you when they are not even a part of your belief and don't even understand it? Even though they might even admit to such they still continue to label you the way they want. I had a good brother of my faith here recently that tried to get our belief put up as a discussion group and was told there wasn't enough here interested in discussing it. I don't see allot of the groups here being discussed for very long periods of time and I couldn’t help but laugh when he had told me what the answer was as to his request.

Zardoz · Feb 3, 2009

Stellify said:
...So, Messianic Jews believe in Christ, correct? And as such, could be considered a type of Christian.

Yes, if your definition of Christian also includes those who do not assign any divinity to Yeshua then I guess it could fit. Most Christians, even some non-Trinitarians and Adoptionists, would have issues with this. Messianic Jews come from both Gentile Christian backgrounds and Jewish backgrounds so the range of belief possibilities is wide. Myself the Messianic belief concerns only the Messiah and does not alter my definition of G-d in any way from normative Judaism. In other words, the mission and not the man is divine. That is the Jewish perspective of Messiah for the majority of Jews.

But, it's obviously not Roman Catholicism, so...doesn't that mean it could also be considered a type of Protestantism? From my understanding, the term Protestant is often used simply to describe any type of Christianity that isn't Roman Catholicism...

This is a common view from what I've seen, it's either-or. You must understand that Messianic Jews were around long before either the Roman Church or the Reformation. We're outside the formula. If there is any sub-forum under Christianity forum that we could logically fit it would be Restorationists. However I would prefer to be up under Abrahamic Religions as that would allow us to define ourselves in the broadest and most inclusive manner. However, that's JMHO as I've stated I'm just looking for more opinions as who am I, a Newbie, to make requests of Forum changes? I'm patient, I will wait for more input.

Thanks for your support wmam.

Elessar · Feb 3, 2009

I've been here for months and didn't even realize Messianic Jews had our own DIR because I would never even imagine to look under "Protestant"

wmam · Feb 3, 2009

Zardoz said:
Thanks for your support wmam.

Don't mention it.

I see you believe, as I know other messianic jews do as well, that your belief was the first since the moshiach. Then we have all the others out here that disagree, like the christians who believe they were the first as well as the atheist who just think we are all nuts, and have the power to set "messianic judaism" where they will. Trying to change the minds of the powers that be may in fact be much harder than it would have been to change the mind of Pontius Pilate.

In any case I admire your attempt.

wmam · Feb 3, 2009

Elessar said:
I've been here for months and didn't even realize Messianic Jews had our own DIR because I would never even imagine to look under "Protestant"

I've been around for years and just happened across it yesterday.

Stellify · Feb 3, 2009

Zardoz said:
Yes, if your definition of Christian also includes those who do not assign any divinity to Yeshua then I guess it could fit. Most Christians, even some non-Trinitarians and Adoptionists, would have issues with this. Messianic Jews come from both Gentile Christian backgrounds and Jewish backgrounds so the range of belief possibilities is wide. Myself the Messianic belief concerns only the Messiah and does not alter my definition of G-d in any way from normative Judaism. In other words, the mission and not the man is divine. That is the Jewish perspective of Messiah for the majority of Jews.

This is a common view from what I've seen, it's either-or. You must understand that Messianic Jews were around long before either the Roman Church or the Reformation. We're outside the formula. If there is any sub-forum under Christianity forum that we could logically fit it would be Restorationists. However I would prefer to be up under Abrahamic Religions as that would allow us to define ourselves in the broadest and most inclusive manner. However, that's JMHO as I've stated I'm just looking for more opinions as who am I, a Newbie, to make requests of Forum changes? I'm patient, I will wait for more input.

Thanks for your support wmam.

Ah! I did not realize how you differentiated between the divinity of the "man and the mission". That makes things so much clearer

Hmm...From the few Messianic Jews I have known in person, I would also have put it under Abrahamic Religions (if I were to act off of instinct alone, that is). Honestly, if I were you, I would PM one of the admins about moving the forum. You can direct them to this thread for an explanation. From my personal experience with them, they have always been very understanding and tried to give each belief it's fair place in the forum (despite what it seems like wmam is suggesting). I think it's just hard to place every belief in the best spot possible when perhaps one is not a follower of those religions

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things a little to me! I truly appreciate you

Katzpur · Feb 3, 2009

Zardoz said:
Yes, I'm a bit confused about this forum, mostly why it's here. Sure, I understand why it's in Christianity as it won't be allowed in the Jewish forums. I would think it wrong to force ourselves on the mainstream Jewish denominations, against their will. However, does the term 'Judaism' in Messianic Judaism have to be completely disregarded? Look where we are... not just under the Christian forum, but under the sub-forum Protestantism! I for one... now this is just MHO... never ever EVER think of myself as any kind of Protestant.

Wow! I can totally understand why that bugs you, Zardoz! Welcome to RF and here's hoping one of the staff sees your OP and moves the Messianic Judaism subforum to where it belongs. :yes:

ChrisP · Feb 3, 2009

Heehee, don't get your nickers in a twist young one.

It'll probably get moved, and people probably did the best they could with the info they had. Not to worry, this shall be brought to justice... maybe

Stellify · Feb 3, 2009

wmam said:
Zardoz, I couldn't agree more with you. Don't you just hate it when others put a label on you when they are not even a part of your belief and don't even understand it? Even though they might even admit to such they still continue to label you the way they want. I had a good brother of my faith here recently that tried to get our belief put up as a discussion group and was told there wasn't enough here interested in discussing it. I don't see allot of the groups here being discussed for very long periods of time and I couldn’t help but laugh when he had told me what the answer was as to his request.

You do seem somewhat bitter about people labeling you.
And your banned friend may not have liked the answer...but why didn't he simply start a thread in the religious debates or discussions forum? Just because one particular admin didn't want to create an entire discussion forum for the faith doesn't mean you would have been unable to discuss it at all.

wmam said:
Don't mention it.

I see you believe, as I know other messianic jews do as well, that your belief was the first since the moshiach. Then we have all the others out here that disagree, like the christians who believe they were the first as well as the atheist who just think we are all nuts, and have the power to set "messianic judaism" where they will. Trying to change the minds of the powers that be may in fact be much harder than it would have been to change the mind of Pontius Pilate.

In any case I admire your attempt.

I think that seems a little extreme. This, more than the first post, was what prompted my comment about your attitude towards the forums.
You did just compare people to Pontius Pilate. If I'm misunderstanding your comment, please let me know.

I didn't call you a liar. I said it SEEMED like you were SUGGESTING something. Maybe you should read posts more carefully before you just go off half-cocked making false accusations about someone

As I said earlier, you could still have started a discussion about it. Members are free to make threads. Perhaps, if your friend could have found enough people interested and showed the admin, she would have created a separate forum for the belief. But if not, you still could have discussed it as a separate thread under Abrahamic Religions or something. Or even gone onto the "one on one" debate forum. Also, just because one admin didn't do what you wished doesn't mean the entire staff are jerks. I mean...They keep this site running as a place for people of all beliefs and religions to come speak and debate freely (although hopefully with respect).
And, considering that there is already a place designated for Messianic Judaism makes this case a bit different than the one you're talking about. I do wish Zardoz luck in getting this forum moved. I think it would attract more discussion that way, and I can understand why having it under "Protestantism" is a bit of an issue.

wmam · Feb 4, 2009

Stellify said:
You do seem somewhat bitter about people labeling you.

Most black people do.

Stellify said:
And your banned friend may not have liked the answer...but why didn't he simply start a thread in the religious debates or discussions forum? Just because one particular admin didn't want to create an entire discussion forum for the faith doesn't mean you would have been unable to discuss it at all.

Oh but he did.

Stellify said:
I think that seems a little extreme. This, more than the first post, was what prompted my comment about your attitude towards the forums.

Stellify said:
You did just compare people to Pontius Pilate. If I'm misunderstanding your comment, please let me know.

You evidently do not know much about the bible not to know how easily it would have been for Yahshua to have changed the mind of said man. Anyways it wasn't meant to be a bad thing but your free to make it into whatever you want.

Stellify said:
I didn't call you a liar. I said it SEEMED like you were SUGGESTING something. Maybe you should read posts more carefully before you just go off half-cocked making false accusations about someone

Your insinuation was the same to me and I was offended. I didn't go around, not even knowing you, and stating that you seemed to be suggesting a lie about anything.

Stellify said:
Also, just because one admin didn't do what you wished doesn't mean the entire staff are jerks.

Are you insinuating that the admin that Berachiah had contacted is a jerk?

Stellify said:
And, considering that there is already a place designated for Messianic Judaism makes this case a bit different than the one you're talking about.

Whats that got to do with the price of rice? I was just offering an experence that one had with trying to set-up a group and you just don't seem to like it. well guess what? Oh well.

I use to follow the MJ's belief, and considered myself to be one, so I know what it is like to be labled different than what you are by those that don't have a clue. Even when you try your hardess to teach them they don't care. You first came here with all kinds of why is it so bad to be here anyways. How would you like to have your belief a sub cat. of atheism? I bet you would have a hissy too.

Stellify said:
I do wish Zardoz luck in getting this forum moved. I think it would attract more discussion that way, and I can understand why having it under "Protestantism" is a bit of an issue.

Its good you seem to finally understand the real issue here.

Zardoz · Feb 4, 2009

Elessar said:
I've been here for months and didn't even realize Messianic Jews had our own DIR because I would never even imagine to look under "Protestant"

That, my friends, speaks volumes. I actively went to seek it out, as this was to be my primary forum. It took me quite a while to find it. Again, speaks volumes.

I assume Hebrew Christians like J4J also have difficulty finding it, being under Protestantism. Again I reference the stale posts here. I've known some J4J so I would know that if they posted here they would agree to much of my original analysis but would in honesty object to moving out of Christianity forum (but perhaps would agree to move to Restorationist sub-forum) That is why in my original post I recommended re-name of this forum to Hebrew Christianity and formation of a new Messianic forum elsewhere. Green Gaia's excellent overview could be sticky in both forums.

So, I will see about finding a Moderator to PM so at least it's on the radar.

Shalom

Elessar · Feb 5, 2009

The Administration have moved this forum to "Abrahamic Religions", outside of Christianity and Judaism altogether.

Katzpur · Feb 5, 2009

Neat! Okay, so will the Messianic Jews on the forum please begin to educate me. What exactly distinguishes you from Judaism and from Christianity? I kind of have my own ideas on this, but since they're probably wrong, I would like to hear it from someone who knows.

Zardoz · Feb 6, 2009

There are many shades of Messianic Judaism, so that question is not easy to answer simply. I recommend that you start with the excellent Overview sticky here. I am personally on the far end of the scale that Green Gaia calls "The 'Torah'-pole" and therefore my beliefs would be only one perspective. It's best that all types of Messianic Jews get fair and equal representation.

When I am able to link to outside sites, I will start a Link thread which I hope will include a variety of community types.

Myself I will mostly be posting Torah portions that are relevant, with commentary, perhaps also the Parshat Shavua if I can find the time.

Emmalyn · Feb 6, 2009

Katzpur said:
Neat! Okay, so will the Messianic Jews on the forum please begin to educate me. What exactly distinguishes you from Judaism and from Christianity? I kind of have my own ideas on this, but since they're probably wrong, I would like to hear it from someone who knows.

Depends on who you ask. I am a Messianic Jew and I do not consider myself a christian because our beliefs are different. Like christians, I believe that my salvation is by God's Grace through faith. However, christians generally see Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilling the law by ending it even though He said not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

All of the Messianic Jews (and Gentiles) that I know believe that God's commandments are eternal. They define sin and, therefore, because we are saved we choose to be obedient in order to walk as sinless a life as humanly possible.

Emmalyn

Katzpur · Feb 6, 2009

Emmalyn said:
Depends on who you ask. I am a Messianic Jew and I do not consider myself a christian because our beliefs are different. Like christians, I believe that my salvation is by God's Grace through faith. However, christians generally see Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilling the law by ending it even though He said not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

All of the Messianic Jews (and Gentiles) that I know believe that God's commandments are eternal. They define sin and, therefore, because we are saved we choose to be obedient in order to walk as sinless a life as humanly possible.

Emmalyn

So how exactly do they view Jesus? How are Messianic Jews different from any other kinds of Jews? (I'm so happy to finally have someone to answer these questions! :yes

I'm confused

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