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Is Christianity consistant w/ judaism?
- Thread starter jewscout
- Start date
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Fair enough. I apologize for referring to the Tanach as the OT. I will refer to it as "Hebrew Scriptures" from now on or Tanach. I honestly didn't realize what I was doing.... :162:jewscout said:
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
No, there is a consistent theology, but from a Chrsitian POV, the Jews simply didn't want to accept it (Jesus as the Messiah) on a large scale, so we have several flavors of Judaism: what became Reformed, Conservative, and the part of the Jews we consider the remnant became Chrsitianity.jewscout said:
jewscout
Religious Zionist
are you saying that the reform and conservative movements are somehow tied to the differences between christianity and judaism? I don't quite get what ur saying there...:help:angellous_evangellous said:
you say there is consistancy but we've arleady established that the concept of G-d, at least from your perspective AE, is somehow different than Judaism...now if Christianity and Judaism can't agree on the basic concept of what is the Divine how can you consider it consistant...hell many sects of christianity can't agree on the true nature of what Jesus was
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
With respect to Exodus 33.18-20, Christians do not confess to have seen God's shekina glory in Jesus Christ, as I have said before, the orthodox understanding of Christ is that the invisible glory of God and God's divine attributes flow through His body in a manner in which His body is the flesh of God. So God's awesome glory is sheilded from us, invisible and unapproachable, just like He is invisible now, all powerful and everywhere, unseen in majesty (Christians do confess that the historical Body of Christ is glorified, and he still lives on in glory, and we await his return).jewscout said:
I did find one example of God in an "image" in Exodus 3. Assuming that angels are created beings that exist, the angel of the Lord speaks as the Lord God out of the burning bush to Moses and claims to be the I AM. So at least one interpretation is that the glory of God appears, vieled (Angel of the Lord) so that Moses does not die, and God retains all of His majesty.
Some attributes of God found in Tanach which lead to a group of first century Jews accepting Jesus as God:
1) The ability of God to be specially located in one place and yet retain his divine qualities (or interact with nature in a special way) - like the Angel of the Lord, God speaking to Moses in his tent like 'man speaks to another man', God being specially located in the temple on the judgement seat in the Holy of Holies and yet His power flows wherever He wills
2) The requirement of revelation. Humanity cannot know the creator by means of science or philosophy, because both of them can only address nature, and God is Creator. Therefore, God had to tell us of His existence and His qualities. Christians did not deify Christ, we believe because of the miracle of the resurrection that Jesus is who He claims to be. If the resurrection occured, then Chrisitanity is a part of Salvation History, and God truly did continue in His revelation.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
The validity of our theology is centrally located in the truth of the resurrection of Christ. We can see in the life of Christ that many prophesies concerning the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures (I will refer to this from now on as HS), which are often cited in the NT. However, if the resurrection took place (belief in which is absolutely needed to be a Christian), then Christians participate in the continuation of the Jewish relationship with YHWH, and the current manifestation of Judaism has rejected its Messiah and has formed thier own history apart from the purpose of God.jewscout said:
The end result is that the current manifestation of Judaism and Christianity have fundamentally different views of God, but 2000 years ago, the Jews rejected the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, which was a continuation of God's prophesy to the Jews. Since Christians didn't just make it up, we did not set an idol in our homes and worship clay or wood shaped by human hands. We believe that the Father of Jesus Christ is the God who participated in the entire history of Israel, and we cherish the HS. We are unique in that we hold to all of the divine qualities of YHWH, and add by God's continued revelation that He is embodied in Jesus and retains His divinity just as He appeared to Moses as the Angel of the Lord.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
i have addressed on another thread how Jesus is not the jewish Moshiach http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6327angellous_evangellous said:
and i don't think that the jews are "apart from the purpose of G-d" because in the 2000 years since the dawn of the christian faith jews have continuiously been persecuted, even had genocide attempted on them...and yet the jew has survived...that to me means that HaShem is keeping His covenant w/ the children of Israel...
But think about this...and this is my own personal opinion...i think the teachings of Jesus and his disciples HAD to be rejected by the jewish people in order for the message of the One G-d to get to the Gentile world...if he had been accepted as, say a prophet of some kind, it would have remained in the jewish religion and you and I would not be having this conversation...most likely Europe would have remained Pagan
To me it's all part of HaShem's plan...
But that doesn't make the theologies any less different
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Yes, I do not doubt that God is still in special relationship with Israel, and cite the survival of the Holocaust as you have as my example. Yes, Jesus had to be despised and rejected, but the point was for the faithful Jews to start believing before His death, and all Jews after His resurrection. Yes, you correctly see that God intended to spread His Word through the Gentile world, but His promise is and always has been "for the Jew first, and then to the Gentile." God has always sought to bless the entire world through Judaism (the promise to Abraham), and when He includes Gentiles in the message of the Gospel, the promise to Abraham is fulfilled.jewscout said:
Jews and Christians have been going around in these circles for 2000 years. Jews are still coming to believe in Christ, seeing that Christian theology is an extention of Judaism.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
it's not really an image of HaShem...the burning bush was to get Moses' attention and the Shechinah is not something that is necessarily corpreal, it is not something physical...i feel the Shechinah when i daven on Shabbat but it's nothing i can describe in a physical sense, so i'd have to say it's far from an "image"angellous_evangellous said:
some do...there's inconsistency w/in christianity's different sects on the nature of Jesus...how can you then say there is consistency between Judaism and Christianity when you yourself have said that the Jews don't believe the messiahship of Jesus or his death and ressurection which you said:belief in which is absolutely needed to be a Christian
isn't that the basic foundation of christian theology?
jewscout
Religious Zionist
i'd have to say i somehow doubt that...within the jewish community i'm finding a stronger trend to the return of traditional Judaism rather than completely converting to christianity...on a side note i think it's the other way around...christians coming closer to Judaism...pastors such as John Hagee are a perfect exampleangellous_evangellous said:
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
There are two images in the story, however. The Angel of the Lord is what I specifically referred to. I interpret the bush as you, but the Angel of the Lord appears to be God taking an image of Himself and yet retaining His glory like Christians think of Jesus.jewscout said:
1) Angels are created beings
2) the Angel of the Lord spoke as God, not the bush
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Yes, where we are welcomed, we will get along with the Jews just fine, simply debating two critical points:jewscout said:
1) The role of the Christ - I seriously doubt that Hagee will renounce Christ
2) The role of the Law
We tend to infuriate Jews most of the time
jewscout
Religious Zionist
lets back up here a sec. AEangellous_evangellous said:
Moses saw no image of anything at the event of the burning bush that took place Horeb...as i have already pointed out it states...
So already HaShem has said that the example you are giving is not an example of HaShem making himself manifest
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
Eeek. That would go against Jesus's entire conversation with Nic in John 3.jewscout said:
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Reconciliation would be a better word than destruction. Perfect unity would dissolve all barriers.Dr. Khan said:
rivenrock
Member
Unless of course the meaning of the true nature of the Messiah was lost over time. If NT accounts can be believed at all (coming as they apparently did from the 'lunatic fringe':sarcastic ), Jesus corrected the Jewish leaders of the day on many points and sharply criticised them for claiming to be leaders and teachers of the people in spite of having lost sight of many precious truths in the law. They built laws onto God's laws, commandments surrounding God's commandments, until the truth was lost. This theme, these kinds of conversations, are reported over and over again (eg. myriad conversations with the Pharisees, the conversation on baptism with Nicodemus, etc)Deut. 32.8 said:
He also told them straight out that he was the Messiah and the Son of God, which is how he was accused of blasphemy. And blasphemy it was...unless of course it was true.
I don't see Judaism and Christianity as inconsistent in the sense that I believe the law of Moses was a preparatory law that Jesus fulfilled. Obviously most Jews would disagree with that interpretation. However, even from a doctrinal point of view alone, I don't see how what Jesus taught contradicts the ten commandments, for example. I think there are lots of points of consistency.
Deut
If you would like to expand on why you consider the deification of the messiah to be such an anathema to Judaism as to render Christianity and Judaism inconsistent, I'd be interested to hear what you think. If you just see the topic as a chance to slag off at Christianity (refer to Christians as lunatics and Christianity as parasitic fiction, for example), don't bother. I'd rather discuss the topic.