Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Melody · Apr 10, 2005

:sarcastic

robtex said:
As I am understanding it Jesus came to earth to die for man's sins. In your religion one of the greatest sins is non-belief in Jesus. But understand that it is still a sin and if Jesus died for all of man's sins than didn't he die for man's sin of non-belief too?

"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:9

Yes, Christ did die for man's sins and God holds out the gift of salvation. If you reject Christ, then you reject that he died for your sins and you reject the gift of salvation.

roli · Apr 10, 2005

Are you Good enough to go to heaven should be the question of the day
Those who would say I don't believe in Jesus or for that matter need a savior, have yet to see their sin( transgression of the law) and or need for justification,because most I ask seem to believe they are good people and see no need for a savior,
They have set their own standard of what good is ,so let me just ask you a couple of prequalifiers to see if youR answer is ranked common among the rest,which is," yes ,Iam a good person.
The scriptures state: the people will profess their own goodness and call good bad , and bad good Most will see Jesus as the only way to heaven when they see they failed his standard and need his forgiveness
1st Question
Have you ever lied, just 1 lie, what would you call someone who lied to you ?
Have you ever looked with lust at anyone, that is adultry in your heart to God ?
Have you ever stolen anything, in your whole life, we can't remember 10 days ago little lone 10 yrs,
You ever hated ( webster's,=intensely dislike someone,to God that is murder
You ever taken God's name or jesus in vain, God says I will not hol him guiltless who takes my name in vain.
To know these laws are stamped and written on our hearts thru our conscience
These are called sins ,and sin against god separates you from knowing Jesus, keeping you in ignorance never knowing whether Jesus is the true way to heaven or not.

How do you rate, on His scale of goodness ?

This is where alot of other more commonly accepted religions are distinctly set apart from Christianity and widely accepted and considered politically correct
This secular humanistic belief system, meaning they promote self awareness,self actualization self help, oneness with self , self pupose,self destiny, self becomes the god, no need or use for a creator with laws and punishment for violation of those laws.
They inturn insitute their own forms of discipline and standards of punishment and retribution.
There rational thoughts mixed with ammorality and no absolutes are strongly emphasized.
Where right and wrong are relative and they become masters of their own destiny ,. guiding themself thru their own spiritual journey's with no real accountability for past present or future actions.
They tend to exclude even the mention of hell ,judgement,torment, punishment and consequence for immorality, unrighteousness and all sinful behavior with no accountability of any sort,only exoneration by good works and self effort. They become there own judge and jury of sorts
This makes them most popular and favorable to follow,while promoting peace,harmony, unity and a host of other pleasant sounding traits that tend to examplify them far above Christianity

This may be an extremely simplified analogy for some of the more deep thinkers ,but the message of the Gospel(good news was meant for those with Child like faith without which no one will see the Lord

Wishful thinking ( there is no god ,or christ etc.)mixed with rational thought may temporarily silence the voice of conscience. only making room for further indulgences in lawlessness as they listen to the voice of reason.
In all actuality sin will never hush the voice of reason , only make room for more justification.

What would you need a lawyer for if you felt you have committed no crime or a doctor if think you have no disease,
The crime is not convincing or convicting until the law enters in and confirms the set standard.
Much like when you get pulled over for speeding, everyone is doing it, ends justifies the means, the conscience is dullened and desensitized to the actual speed, the consequence is masked behind the ignorance of the effects of the law, which are to expose lawlessness ONLY,not to justify

Jesus' claims are so far removed from any other prophet,teacher,guru in the the history of man where one had to die to redeem man ,the price was high because the most precious commodity was life and for God to make a covenant with man someone had to die and he had to be sinless,it had to be by blood.But he rose from the grave and defeated death and brought with him life and immortality ,So yes Jesus is the way to heaven only thru an encounter ing personal experience
He says for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin
Jesus said,if you come to him he will confirm all things giving the assurance of the things he spoke thru his Holy Spirit,that is why I can be so sure of what I speak , I have the witness inside my spirit which is the Spirit of God ,he did not leave me alone to my beliefs but brought a personal experiencial encounter with the living God

Would someone please tell me what some of the other key leaders,teachers and guru's promised other then self discipline and strict adherence to rules that make their way to enlightenment more attracting For example a personal experience , touch or assurance

roli · Apr 10, 2005

lady_lazarus said:
I don't believe he has done any of that, he has merely expressed his opinion that for him Jesus is not that one stop shop to a happy afterlife, and has explained why he feels that way. How can you possibly think for a moment that MasterVigil hasn't earned the right to follow whatever path he has found to be right for him, regardless of whether it is correct for others or not? All he has done is attempt to explain to you how his beliefs work for him, and why his beliefs do not require a middle man. If you consider his posts to be belittleing and opinionated, for your own sake,please don't enter into any of the debate forums.
Why are there people who find it so incomprehensible that some of us have some sort of religious conviction that doesn't require a deity that has to give us something in return for our belief?[/QUOTE
Please go back and review the context of the thread I reponded to.
In it I said he has'nt earned the right to speak of the things of God ,because he has not recieved the transforming power of the Holy Spirit who gives revealtion ,transformation and power to change. No one can't speak of God or comment on what or how he does things and surely not how he reveals himself to others
I clearly did not say anything about his own pursuits, where did you come up with that, God will only reveal himself to a man that is looking for him, thru a living personal experience not thru rational thought and when that happens the things that another christian talks about will be agreed in the spirit of each believer.
You see as a christian I have the spirit of God and another christian friend of mind has the same spirit. We do not have different spirits ,God is one spirit we therefore agree to the things of God, be it his teachings, laws, pricipals and nature.

You can have that conviction but it seldom has little to do with religion and more to do with morality, that is the essence of conviction. right or wrong.
That subject of conviction, and the ability to discern right from wrong is rooted in the conscience given by God not inheirted thru religion.
God claims he gave us our conscience where he has placed His law on our heart, as to know right from wrong, where our conscience accuses or else excuses us.
What other guru, teacher or prophet claimed to give man his conscience and then said he will judge according to whether he violated it or not.
Please enlighten me as to who may have placed the moral code you have in your heart.

JesusIsTheWay · Apr 11, 2005

Wouldn't it serve people better to teach them a bit of accountability for their actions rather than sending an innocent man to be nailed to a tree on their behalf? As good parents you wouldn't beat the dog in a bid to avoid punishing your children for their own wrongdoings.

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (Proverbs 13:24 NIV)
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die." (Proverbs 23:13 NIV)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due to him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10 NIV)

When we get saved it is not a "get out of jail free pass". We are still accountable for our actions and we still deserved to be punished, we are just forgiven.

How do you know? Did you hear him say that? He never even wrote anything down. What you read is witness testimony, there is no proof it is accurate.

Well how do you know that your religion is the right? He didn't have to say anything. His actions proved it. How could you not believe that a man who died for you didn't care for you! There is no proof that your Taoist beliefs are accurate.

There is no need to have a god that cares about me. Why do you need one?

You still haven't answered why you don't need one. I need one because how can I entrust my life into God's hands if He doesn't care for me? How would I trust Him?

Even though I think you follow your book blindly.

I don't follow blindly. Do you?

You realize that words don't really cut it.

I agree completely. Actions speak louder then words. Whose God has spoke louder?

If someone does good, is humble, and compassionate. That is all that matters.

No, Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith... It is the gift of God."

Stop talking, and start acting.

I wish more Christians would think like that.

- David

JesusIsTheWay · Apr 11, 2005

Side Note: "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:25 NIV)

Jesus is not here....how does one get to heaven in the absense of one's savior?

Actually He is. He lives in us in Spirit. "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the earth." (Matthew 28:20b)

but if Jesus is an essential tool for their asention is his presence is required how is this possible if his presense is not required than why?

When we get saved, the Holy Spirit enters us. Once we repent of our sins, we are accepted into God's Kingdom and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Thats the best I can do right now (I'm tired). If you want more clarification, just ask.

did the men who had God in their hearts make the ascention into the kindom of God and if so than they did so without Jesus. Why could the men of old ascend and the men after Jesus
not?

Yes, they did. But that was according to the old covenant or "Old Testament". There was a Law that they had to follow strictly (Ten Commandments and some other stuff). They had to have a priest offer animal sacrifices and enter into the Holy of Holies (The innermost part of the Temple) and repent for the sins of the nation. It was the first agreement God made with the people of this world. You could ask, well why didn't He do this in the first place? I'll explain if wanted.

In your religion one of the greatest sins is non-belief in Jesus. But understand that it is still a sin and if Jesus died for all of man's sins than didn't he die for man's sin of non-belief too?

Not a sin, just a bad decision. And we must repent of our sins for them to be forgiven.

- David

painted wolf · Apr 11, 2005

my faith has no sin and thus no need for a 'savior'... Jesus was a wise man with many good things to say about living a good life.
Other than that, individuals need to seek thier relationship with Creator on thier own two feet. IMHO.

I agree completely. Actions speak louder then words. Whose God has spoke louder?[/qutoe]
carefull, when God speaks too loudly its thowing a tantrum.:jiggy:

wa:do

Draka · Apr 11, 2005

You sound like your saying the world does'nt know any better, how do people know any better, you mean not knowing right from wrong ,what is good and bad,that lying stealing, cheating, lusting,hating murder are wrong and people don't know it,conscience says different
The world knows better, but nice attempt to excuse the world from their behavior and sinful and indulgent lifestyles,doing what feels good ,when they want ,how they want, to whom they want, not being accountable to anyone but themself while violating the moral code God has placed on their own hearts.
Just from what has been created Men will be without excuse on judgement Rom 2
God has revealed himself to everyone of us
What is it your saying, religion is and always was passed down from generation ,that is what North America was founded on, the forefathers taught there christian beliefs and passed them down, but it's still through a personal experience and choice that you are saved, through faith not family.
You don't go to heaven because you learned it at home, or it's in your blood from tradition and you sure will never get to heaven based on your own merit and effort
By the way, you have met him ,you just don't acknowledge him and or won't let him come in. He stands at the door of your heart and knocks, if you let him in he will come in to you and fellowship with you.
Jesus is the way to heaven,he is the way ,the truth and the life , he is alive and will confirm it to those who come to him by faith, by his spirit and when the spirit comes upon you, you will have all the assurance, confirmation and inner witness you need to say AMEN

Roli,
You obviously completely misunderstood what I was saying. On your first point I highlighted, I never said the WORLD doesn't know any better than to do such awful things. As a matter of fact I said that as long as a person led a good, kind, and fruitful life what difference does it make what religion they are.

Second, just FYI, the founding fathers were deists, not Christians.

Third, My comments were talking in general of people the world over who have not even HEARD of Christ or know extremely little of Christianity because they were raised in an area/country/ region, where another religion is dominant, taught, and passed down through family and culture as a proud way of life.

End note...I was RAISED Christian, I found it held no truth for ME and found what did. I have no problem with Christians in general, I just don't believe that way. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and no one should ever try to change them. Belief makes up an intregal part of who someone is, change that and you change the person...for all anyone knows it could be for the worse. Live and let live.

Steve · Apr 11, 2005

painted wolf said:
my faith has no sin and thus no need for a 'savior'...

If i stood on a highway and said "i have faith that trucks dont kill" would that change reality?
We need to base our faith on reality or we are only decieving ourselves and we can only find the truth if we really want too.
If you are wrong in what you belive you will find out, i hope its this side of the grave when you can do something about it.

painted wolf said:
Jesus was a wise man with many good things to say about living a good life.
Other than that, individuals need to seek thier relationship with Creator on thier own two feet. IMHO.

If you belive Jesus was a wise man then why not heed his warnings? Or was he deluded and thus not a wise? You are right when you say "individuals need to seek thier relationship with Creator on thier own two feet" its your relationship with our creator that determines where you end up, excepting your creator and what he has done for you is a good start.

God knows your heart and if you really want to know him.

Draka · Apr 11, 2005

If you are wrong in what you belive you will find out, i hope its this side of the grave when you can do something about it.

Ditto to you to.

Quoth The Raven · Apr 11, 2005

Steve said:
If i stood on a highway and said "i have faith that trucks dont kill" would that change reality?
We need to base our faith on reality or we are only decieving ourselves and we can only find the truth if we really want too.
If you are wrong in what you believe you will find out, I hope it's this side of the grave when you can do something about it.

If you believe Jesus was a wise man then why not heed his warnings? Or was he deluded and thus not a wise? You are right when you say "individuals need to seek their relationship with Creator on their own two feet" its your relationship with our creator that determines where you end up, accepting your creator and what he has done for you is a good start. God knows your heart and if you really want to know him.

Even the most unhinged person can be good also. Delusions and wisdom are also not necessarily mutually exclusive.
The difference I'm seeing here between those who think that Jesus is the only way and those who don't, is that those who don't are sitting here saying that 'this is the path that spoke to me and so I follow. More power to the rest of you.' and those who do are concerned that the rest of us have a skewed view of reality that will end badly for us. I was raised a Presbyterian, I had several good friends at school who were Christians. I am not a Christian now. Perhaps if there's some grand experience to be had that will confirm the power of Jesus as the one path to life everlasting, the waiting list should be revised so that all the people raised by Christian parents cop the experience before they find another road to walk on.

painted wolf · Apr 11, 2005

the reality is that 'sin' is cultural concept that is far to nebulous to be a practical value. My faith does not have a 'hell' either.

Perhaps Creator thought that you needed that stuff to keep you living a good life? All I know is that when he made us and came to us to teach us to live a good life 'sin' and 'hell' were not nessisary.

If you are wrong in what you belive you will find out, i hope its this side of the grave when you can do something about it.

I was once wrong in what I believed and yes I did find out and I did something about it.

Now I walk a path that Creator ment for me to walk.

Just because I think he was wise doesn't mean I agree with everything he has to say.

I know Creator far better now than I ever did going through an intermediary.

"The difference between the white man and us is this: You believe in the redeeming powers of suffering, if this suffering was done by somebody else, far away, two thousand years ago. We believe that it is up to every one of us to help each other, even through the pain of our bodies. ...We do not lay this burden onto our God, nor do we want to miss being face to face with the Spirit Power. ...We want no angel or saint to gain it for us and give it to us second-hand." -John Fire Lame Deer

I think this sums it up quite nicely.:jam:

Master Vigil · Apr 11, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
Well how do you know that your religion is the right? He didn't have to say anything. His actions proved it. How could you not believe that a man who died for you didn't care for you! There is no proof that your Taoist beliefs are accurate.

And yet, you still don't know of his actions. You only know what people said he did. Tao is acting constantly, it never stops. So yes, I do know my religion acts, and since everything that happens is tao, it is quite accurate.

You still haven't answered why you don't need one. I need one because how can I entrust my life into God's hands if He doesn't care for me? How would I trust Him?

I don't need one because I don't need to entrust my life into a caring god. I can entrust my life into the natural flow of life. I can trust Tao, because I can see how it works. Why would you have trouble trusting? That seems like more of your problem then mine.

[QUOTEI don't follow blindly. Do you?[/QUOTE]Of course not, everything I see, do and have done was a product of Tao. I don't have to worry about it being the product of some demon that doesn't exist. Since everything is Tao, there is no way I could be blind.

I agree completely. Actions speak louder then words. Whose God has spoke louder?

Since I don't believe your god spoke at all, I would have to say Tao. And since a Taoist would honor humility more than power (Being that humility is more divine), Tao's effotrless actions would speak volumes louder than stories of your god.

No, Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith... It is the gift of God."

So a book says, clearly you don't understand the spirit world. But, I wouldn't expect you to. I am just glad you are a good person.

I wish more Christians would think like that.

Me too. Christians should look at buddhists for example. They are very good at this.

And roli, like I said before. I have had many experiences with jesus, and your god. I have also had many experiences with Lupercus, Bastet, hundreds of tree spirits, animal spirits, etc... Have you?

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 11, 2005

NetDoc said:
Hey, hey , hey...

I am probably the WACKIEST follower of Jesus that there is!

me too

Master Vigil · Apr 11, 2005

roli said:
Please go back and review the context of the thread I reponded to.
In it I said he has'nt earned the right to speak of the things of God ,because he has not recieved the transforming power of the Holy Spirit who gives revealtion ,transformation and power to change. No one can't speak of God or comment on what or how he does things and surely not how he reveals himself to others.

How dare you say I don't have the right to speak of the things of god?!? I have met and worked with your "holy spirit" many times. I have helped it many times, how dare you claim to know my soul, take your bigotness somewhere else. I can simply say that you don't have the right to speak of god because you haven't experienced the holy spirit either. Since I deal with spirits constantly, I can tell you that you don't understand how they work. But I try not to say those things, because I don't feel they are appropriate. Yes, I believe it is wrong. I wonder where you learned your morals from.

I clearly did not say anything about his own pursuits, where did you come up with that, God will only reveal himself to a man that is looking for him, thru a living personal experience not thru rational thought and when that happens the things that another christian talks about will be agreed in the spirit of each believer.
You see as a christian I have the spirit of God and another christian friend of mind has the same spirit. We do not have different spirits ,God is one spirit we therefore agree to the things of God, be it his teachings, laws, pricipals and nature.

It is true, and it was revealed to me. It wasn't logical at first, but as I studied, it became logical. The world is logical, and natural. If your concept of god doesn't stand up to logic, then its time to rethink. Tao has been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. Which I'm sure you will say your god has to you as well. That is fine, since Tao created your god, I have no problem with it.

And I disagree about your souls being different. Everyone has a different soul. I'm sure there are some differences in your views. Even the slightest, smallest difference, is still a difference.

angellous_evangellous · Apr 11, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
I have several sources of information I use when I study the Bible. And I study the Bible because it is not in it's original language. The King James Version was 'authorized' by a King, not God. And the translation is sometimes under the influence of the writers opinion or belief. I seek to seperate God's truth from man's elaborations.

First of all, the KJV and other translations of the Bible into English were translated by scholars who knew Greek, which obviously you do not, and they were in a position to offer translation. Granted, for those of us who know Greek, we are able to read the text, compare syntactical analysis, and attempt to clarify some of the finer points in translation which may be interprative (eg, elaborations in translation). For most folks who have no understanding of Greek, there are plenty of English commentaries which give the interprative problems and discuss syntax (how the words are defined and definitions fit together).

None of your sources will amount to anything without a basic understanding of the syntax of the language, as you have shown above. A great place to start would be Mounce's Basics of NT Greek and then Wallace's Beyond the Basics. Then, you can compare Greek grammars and commentaries for the different possibilites for how to translate a particular passage.

The Bible will never escape man's elaborations, as you have also shown. You are ready to reject every possible syntactical possibility (eg, looking at various grammars, lexicons, and commentaries which obviously you have not done here), look up a few synonymns, and are quick to present your own elaboration, having no defense and no basis of reasoning your elaboration (more properly defined as an uneducated guess or interpretation) of the text.

If you insist on continuing to use synonyms and basing your interpretation on a balancing of these synonymns to make up your own theology which does not coorespond to any knowledge of the basics of the language in which you are addressing, I suspect that each point that you make will be invalid and easily rebutted by anyone with a minimal knowledge of Greek. Your probability of coming to the correct elaboration (to use your terminology) is wildly low, but I wish you the best of luck.

Scott1 · Apr 11, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Yes..... but this means many different things to people.

angellous_evangellous · Apr 11, 2005

SOGFPP said:
Yes..... but this means many different things to people.

Now that's the way to offer a clear response.:biglaugh:

Scott1 · Apr 11, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
Now that's the way to offer a clear response.:biglaugh:

Hehe.... a clear answer for a clear question.

Melody · Apr 11, 2005

Master Vigil said:
I have met and worked with your "holy spirit" many times. I have helped it many times, <snip> That is fine, since Tao created your god, I have no problem with it.

I won't argue with you that you work with spirits since there are many strange things in the world that we can't explain. However, if you believe that you have "helped" the Holy Spirit of my faith, then I would disagree and suggest that this spirit has misled you since the Holy Spirit is just another aspect of God who does not need our "help".

And my Creator was not created.

Master Vigil · Apr 11, 2005

Melody said:
I won't argue with you that you work with spirits since there are many strange things in the world that we can't explain. However, if you believe that you have "helped" the Holy Spirit of my faith, then I would disagree and suggest that this spirit has misled you since the Holy Spirit is just another aspect of God who does not need our "help".

And my Creator was not created.

All spirits are aspects of Tao. I suppose I should tell you something that will better help you understand... My soul is not completely human. The other part of my soul is a spirit that is constantly working in the spirit world. Half of my soul is very similar to your holy spirit. I'm sure you won't believe that, but it's true. We just have different jobs. My job in the spirit world changes from time to time, but at once I did help your holy spirit. The holy spirit is simply a spirit that connects the physical to the spiritual, and helps with our morality. If you have ever helped someone with their spirituality and morality, you have indeed helped the holy spirit. I just did it on a spiritual level. Now my job deals with death. (Sucks I know.) But whenever an entity dies, It is my job to change the energy. That is just what we do. But that is simplifying it dramatically. It is more like, I let the energy change through me naturally so that it is completed. Its hard to explain. The spirit world is very complicated, and the bible doesn't come close to explaining it accurately. But thats alright, that's not the reason it was written for.

And if you would compare taoist though to christianity, yes your god was created by tao. Whether you believe this or not, if the two ideas are compared, that is the conclusion.

Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Yes!

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There is no Heaven.

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