ccjohnson23
New Member
What exactly are the LDS's views of satan and hell?
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Mormon views on satan?
- Thread starter ccjohnson23
- Start date
DeepShadow
White Crow
I'm terribly sorry I've never answered this one; I'm still at a loss for a frame of reference. Where do I start? I suppose I'll start with quotes, and you can ask questions from there.
From Gospel Principles:
"We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, 'Whom shall I send?' (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, 'Here am I, send me' (Abraham 3:27).
"Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Fathers commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, 'Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever' (Moses 4:2).
"Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, 'Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor' (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation."
Hell....hmmmm....Gospel Principles is a good place to start, so I'll just keep going from there:
"The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught about two divisions or states in the spirit world:
"'The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
"'And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evilfor behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their houseand these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
"'Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection' (Alma 40:1214).
"The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:2830), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762)."
Whew! How's that for starters? I'm really sorry if you don't understand my reluctance to speak; as I've said in other posts, LDS thinking requires a paradigm shift, because we don't use many words the same way others folks do.
From Gospel Principles:
"We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, 'Whom shall I send?' (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, 'Here am I, send me' (Abraham 3:27).
"Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Fathers commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, 'Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever' (Moses 4:2).
"Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, 'Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor' (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation."
Hell....hmmmm....Gospel Principles is a good place to start, so I'll just keep going from there:
"The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught about two divisions or states in the spirit world:
"'The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
"'And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evilfor behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their houseand these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
"'Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection' (Alma 40:1214).
"The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:2830), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762)."
Whew! How's that for starters? I'm really sorry if you don't understand my reluctance to speak; as I've said in other posts, LDS thinking requires a paradigm shift, because we don't use many words the same way others folks do.
DeepShadow
White Crow
And more:
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:1820). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.
Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit (D&C 19:1618). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.
The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:2527). They will then be resurrected.
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:1820). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.
Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit (D&C 19:1618). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.
The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:2527). They will then be resurrected.
skeeterboots
New Member
lds don't believe in hell or the devil. they believe they themselves are soon to be their own Gods. they believe in tons of different stages of what christians refer to heaven and hell. but, they do not believe in demons or satan. ***ADMIN EDIT****
ccjohnson23
New Member
i seem to be getting differing answers here..........i know a mormon who once told me they don't believe in hell.........i was just wondering what they believe happens to the souls of the nonbelievers and what it takes to get to heaven
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
By JS, you can't be talking about the revered prophet Joseph Smith? Would you refer to the founder of a religion as "possessed by the devil" with no qualification?skeeterboots said:
Qualifications would be:
In my opinion
In my humble opinion
From the point of view of orthodox Christianity
Most orthodox Jews would consider Christians to be idol-worshipping a blasphemer when they speak of Jesus of Nazareth as part of the Trinity.
DeepShadow
White Crow
skeeterboots said:
1) If you want a debate, start a debate thread, don't hijack an educational one.
2) I would hope that the quotes above from actual LDS study manuals would be enough to refute such misinformation.
3) If you actually start a debate thread, please a) send me an IM and b) cite your source.
DeepShadow
White Crow
ccjohnson23 said:
Thus my initial hesitancy to speak, and my statement at the end of my post that there is a paradigm shift involved. Let's see if we can clear some of this up:
We don't believe in the traditional views of hell. We don't believe that it is a single physical location, nor that it is a literal place of burning, nor that it will last forever, nor that all non-(insert belief system here) are going there, etc. etc. For this reason, many LDS trying to simplify things say "we don't believe in hell."
OTOH, "hell" is a scriptural fact, however much it has been distorted by the philosophies of men. Spirit prison may not be a blazing volcanic hot tub, but it's still a place of suffering. Mosiah (in the Book of Mormon) says that the guilt and pain and anguish of those who have sinned is like an unquenchable fire whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. Likewise, those in lesser degrees of glory may be better off than they were on earth, but there is a form of "damnation" in that they are cut off from God, the greatest source of true joy.
Thus, two answers, both correct. I gave you the more precise one because, well, this is a place for education, and I expect those who come here are looking for more info than just the passing-on-the-street type answer.
Now that I understand your question better, I can answer better, but not right now. I'll be back soon!
P.S. We do believe in Satan; please see the above quotes regarding the fall of Lucifer. I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but apparently I have underestimated other people's ability to misunderstand. :bonk: :banghead3
fromthe heart
Well-Known Member
This also depends on your belief system of the eternal lake of fire which is afterall at the end of it all. This scripture you quoted follows the statement Whom GOD HATH RAISED UP,LOOSED THE PAINS OF DEATH...this speaks of the death of humans ie.hell...does not speak to the 'Eternal Lake of Fire' where there will be no release from the torment. The book of Morman is also supposed to be another testament of Jesus Christ to be used in conjunction with the Bible from what MY Morman friends have told me. Is this wrong?DeepShadow said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Skeeterboots,skeeterboots said:
It seems to me that the Latter-day Saints are probably in a better position than you are to say what they believe. Would you like me to try to explain to other people what you believe?
We do believe in Hell. We also believe in the Devil (aka Satan or Lucifer). We just don't believe that quite as many people are going to end up in Hell as most Christians do.
We believe that God has given all of His children (both LDS and non-LDS) the potential to become as He is someday. This doesn't mean that He will not still be our God, that we will be equal to Him or that we will no longer worship Him. Nor do we believe that we would be able to attain godhood by virtue of our own merits. Surely you believe that God is capable of doing anything He wishes, don't you? If He wants to make us gods or goddesses, I'm sure He both knows what He is doing and is able to do it.
Incidentally, the Latter-day Saints didn't invent this doctrine. It was taught in the ancient Church, as a number of quotes from the early Christian apologists will prove. Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."
The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were gods and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him for we can prevent Him, if we choose He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, CC.ccjohnson23 said:
It's hard for me to imagine a practicing, knowledgeable Latter-day Saint saying that we don't believe in Hell. On the other hand, I think it would be safe to say that we believe in the "biggest Heaven" and the "littlest Hell" of any Christian denomination around. The Bible teaches that there is only one unforgivable sin, that being blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. In a nutshell, we believe that only those individuals who commit this sin will be cast into Hell for all eternity. The Bible also teaches that, while we are saved (i.e. resurrected, or saved from the permanance of death) by grace, we will be rewarded "according to our works."
In 1 Corinthians 15:40-42, Paul said, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."
The most righteous of God's children will attain a celestial glory, the glory of the sun. Those who were good, honorable people, but less valiant in defending the cause of truth will be given a terrestrial glory or glory of the moon. The rest (except for those who committed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) will be given a glory like that of the stars. Only those who are given a celestial glory will be able to live in the presence of God for all of eternity and will be granted the privilege of eternal progression. This is the goal of all believing Latter-day Saints. Those who do not live worthy of entering the Celestial Kingdom will not be favored with God's eternal presence, but they won't be subject to Satan, either. They will enjoy a "degree of glory" (unlike those who committed the unpardonable sin, who are cast into outer darkness forever), just not the degree of glory they might have been given had they been more righteous in keeping God's commandments.
We also believe that everyone who has ever lived will have the opportunity during the period of time between their death and their resurrection to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and either accept it or reject it. It is inconceivable to us that a loving Father in Heaven would condemn millions and millions of His own children to an eternity in Hell just because they happened to be born at a time or in a part of the world where Christianity was virtually unknown. Obviously, it is impossible to accept Jesus Christ as Savior if you've never heard of Jesus Christ. But, because of God's great love for all of His children, no one will find himself in the position of having to say, "But I didn't know!"
Hopefully this will help make our belief a bit clearer to you.
skeeterboots
New Member
so, you are saying that you don't believe you are going to be a "God" someday? i have some friends that are LDS and he is actually the bishop of the ward where we live and they sure did explain it to me that they will be Gods someday. are you refuting that? are you temple worthy? also, what kind of "ancient church" supposedly invented that idea? Jehovah witnesses?
skeeterboots
New Member
as far as your doctrine on "terrestial, celestial and telestial" that is not what is meant in the Christian bible. lds version which is Joseph Smiths opinion that he recorded in the mid 1850s is from the book of mormon that LDS hold more important than any other book. (including the bible) they basically pick and choose what they want to believe from the bible if it goes along with their teachings from the 19th century. there are also other sins-like the 10 commandments that if broken without repentence will send you to the bad place=not just blasphemy. also, why do lds think the bible refers to "hell" as a place of torment and terrible sufferings if it is not a place that the bible refers to as the "fiery abyss"? why wouldn't the bible just say "outer darkness instead?" why doesn't Christ speak about the all of the different stages of celestial, telestial and terrestial and outline the differences between them in the bible? are we only to know the great "truth" in the mid 1800s all of the sudden with the book of mormon? just curious.
DeepShadow
White Crow
I believe Katzpur already addressed this in a previous post. See her last post on the previous page. She hasn't refuted anything that your bishop friend has said...unless this is the same source who told you we don't believe in Satan....skeeterboots said:
As for whether she's temple worthy, that's between her and God.:tsk:
DeepShadow
White Crow
Bless you for going to an actual book. :162: Did you find that in the online version?michel said:I would have thought that the answer lies in the glossary to the LDS 'Gospel Principles'
Satan: A name of the devil, who opposes the plan of salvation.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you'll re-read my post, you'll see exactly what I said: "We believe that God has given all of His children (both LDS and non-LDS) the potential to become as He is someday." Nobody in this world (not your LDS bishop friend or anyone else) knows who will attain that goal in the eternities. To become like our Heavenly Father is certainly a noble aspiration, just as long as we always remember that it is He who makes it all possible.skeeterboots said:
Yes, I'm temple worthy. I went through the temple for the first time nearly 35 years ago, (yes, I'm old) and have been many, many times since then.
The ancient Church I referred to was the Church Jesus Christ established. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.
Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.
Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be godlike. One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?
Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Saviors death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:
In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods. He also posed this question: Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods? At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine. And, finally, Augustine, said, But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.
Now you can balk at the idea all you want, but the fact it, we have greater potential than you can possibly imagine.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
skeeterboots said:
Okay, so lets go back and look at Pauls exact words once again. "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."
Since you are convinced that our interpretation is wrong, why dont you tell us what Paul really meant.
Considering he was martyred in 1844, recording anything at all in the mid 1850s would have been quite a feat! (Id suggest you check your sources a little bit more carefully in the future.)
In our opinion, anyplace other than the presence of God would be a bad place.
Okay, call it the fiery abyss if it makes you happy. I dont have any quarrel with that.
Do you honestly believe that every word Christ ever spoke ended up in the Bible? As a Catholic, you believe in doctrines that are not spelled out in detail in the scriptures. I think that perhaps this is an issue you might consider dropping while you can still save face.
Well, it certainly has clarified a lot of things for me.
You know, Skeeter, I'm kind of new here, but I'm curious about something, too. I thought this particular forum was supposed to be an educational one. I'm afraid I don't quite understand your hostility. We don't have to see eye-to-eye on everything in order to be civil to one another, do we?
Kathryn