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The Injustice Proposed by the Belief System of Hell and the Tyrannical Cruelty of God
- Thread starter Druidus
- Start date
DeepShadow
White Crow
In many ways I agree with you, Druidus, at least I think I do if I understand you correctly. Some of these are repeats of previous posters, but IMO they need to be viewed together to get the full effect, so bear with me:
First, I don't believe that God created Hell. I believe we create it ourselves, by rejecting God.
Second, I don't believe that Hell is a literal lake of fire. That's a metaphor, for the guilt and pain one feels--again, self-inflicted.
Third, I don't believe that Hell will last forever. Others have brought up the passage in Revelations about Death and Hell being cast into the lake of fire, and that's exactly what is going to happen.
Fourth, I don't think that Hell is punishment. Rather, it's a consequence of actions.
Finally, I can't judge who's going to Hell individually, let alone as a group! God weighs things out based upon what portion of the truth you knew, and how well you obeyed that truth. A person who knows only 10% of the divine truth but who obeys that little bit wholeheartedly will be much better off than someone who knew 100% of the truth and only obeyed 10% of it. (FWIW I use 100% as a mathematical convenience; I don't know if anyone ever knew/knows the whole truth while alive). Therefore, I can't say whether all non-Mormons, all non-Christians, or any other group is/isn't going to Hell. It's an individual thing.
My primary responsibility is to make sure I'm not there with you.
In summary, here's what one of my church's publications says about Hell:
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:1820). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.
Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit (D&C 19:1618). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.
The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:2527). They will then be resurrected.
First, I don't believe that God created Hell. I believe we create it ourselves, by rejecting God.
Second, I don't believe that Hell is a literal lake of fire. That's a metaphor, for the guilt and pain one feels--again, self-inflicted.
Third, I don't believe that Hell will last forever. Others have brought up the passage in Revelations about Death and Hell being cast into the lake of fire, and that's exactly what is going to happen.
Fourth, I don't think that Hell is punishment. Rather, it's a consequence of actions.
Finally, I can't judge who's going to Hell individually, let alone as a group! God weighs things out based upon what portion of the truth you knew, and how well you obeyed that truth. A person who knows only 10% of the divine truth but who obeys that little bit wholeheartedly will be much better off than someone who knew 100% of the truth and only obeyed 10% of it. (FWIW I use 100% as a mathematical convenience; I don't know if anyone ever knew/knows the whole truth while alive). Therefore, I can't say whether all non-Mormons, all non-Christians, or any other group is/isn't going to Hell. It's an individual thing.
My primary responsibility is to make sure I'm not there with you.
In summary, here's what one of my church's publications says about Hell:
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:1820). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.
Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit (D&C 19:1618). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.
The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:2527). They will then be resurrected.
ayani
member
oracle said:
as much as i disagree with the idea of hell, i must admit it's fun to think up what hell would be for various people.side story:
so, i walk into the living room and notice my step-dad's lying on the couch watching a documentary on PBS about the women's sufferage movement. i look at the TV, at him, and back at the TV. i pause, then ask "you can't find the remote, can you?". he gives me this look of surprised gratitude and answers "no... would you mind changing the channel for me?"
DeepShadow
White Crow
Deepshadow's Hell needs only three levels, not nine like Dante's Inferno:
Level 1: Downtown traffic on Christmas Eve, everyone else is drunk and you can't tell where the lights are with all the flashing red and green.
Level 2: Parking lot of Wal-Mart on Christmas Eve, where the little devils drive tiny cars that are just enough to take up a parking space, but you can't see them until you're already there. Then you see one across the lot pull out, but by the time you get there.....
Level 3: Inside Wal-Mart on Chrismas Eve. Satan spends all his time popping up at registers and saying "I can help someone over here" and then ducking and running to another register.
Level 1: Downtown traffic on Christmas Eve, everyone else is drunk and you can't tell where the lights are with all the flashing red and green.
Level 2: Parking lot of Wal-Mart on Christmas Eve, where the little devils drive tiny cars that are just enough to take up a parking space, but you can't see them until you're already there. Then you see one across the lot pull out, but by the time you get there.....
Level 3: Inside Wal-Mart on Chrismas Eve. Satan spends all his time popping up at registers and saying "I can help someone over here" and then ducking and running to another register.
I' m with you Druidus. Nothing that anyone does in the course of a lifetime on earth could possibly warrant an eternity of damnation. The concept of ETERNAL damnation by its very definition is completely unjust and simply wrong, particularly in a religion that is all about forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Not even Adolf Hitler would deserve ETERNAL damnation, something I've said before and been scorned about, but think about it...I'm not saying if there is a Hell (which I firmly believe there isn't) he isn't there burning away nicely, but if even Hitler felt the most profound and genuine remorse for his terrible deeds in life, then after a certain time in Hell wouldn't he rejoin the light and be able to live in peace. Would there be no chance of a genuine revelation?
It seems to me that if this wouldn't be the case then God is not worthy of our worship.
It seems to me that if this wouldn't be the case then God is not worthy of our worship.
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
So far no one has said where the teaching of hell comes from...do you guys know? have you looked into the root word meanings for what has been translated as hell in many bibles? if you do, you will see that it is not a bible teaching...
I agree with Deep Shadow's interpretation of one Hell in the LDS church, but we also believe in a type of Hell that is similar to what other Christian churches teach... it's just much more difficult to get there because it is reserved for those who had a perfect knowledge of the divinity of Christ and then denied His existence.
We believe that the vast majority of people will receive some degree of Glory after the judgment, but that there is a 'special' place reserved for those "having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame." The sons of perdition, as they are called, "deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D&C 76: 35, 43)
There is debate in the church on the level of knowledge required before you "qualify" to be a Son of Perdition. Many believe that you have to actually see Christ. The biggest difference between the Hell of most Christian churches and the Hell (or Outer Darkness) of the LDS church is that you cannot be cast into outer darkness without having known the truth about Christ. This shows that God is merciful to all His children and will not cast them out of his presence because of a lack of opportunity. I do not see it as unjust or tyrannical for God to eternally punish someone who has rejected Him and worked against Him after having been given a perfect knowledge of His Son.
We believe that the vast majority of people will receive some degree of Glory after the judgment, but that there is a 'special' place reserved for those "having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame." The sons of perdition, as they are called, "deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D&C 76: 35, 43)
There is debate in the church on the level of knowledge required before you "qualify" to be a Son of Perdition. Many believe that you have to actually see Christ. The biggest difference between the Hell of most Christian churches and the Hell (or Outer Darkness) of the LDS church is that you cannot be cast into outer darkness without having known the truth about Christ. This shows that God is merciful to all His children and will not cast them out of his presence because of a lack of opportunity. I do not see it as unjust or tyrannical for God to eternally punish someone who has rejected Him and worked against Him after having been given a perfect knowledge of His Son.
Not anywhere that the word hell appears. Hell is a "waiting room" for the lake of fire. Which come froms teachings in the GMk, GMt, and Revelations. They speak of a burning afterlife, "where the worm dieth not" and lakes of fire wherein (this is the same place all judged souls are thrown in, along with death and hell) it says that the devil and beast will be tormented day and night forever.
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
The word Hell is a translation of the words Hades and Sheol, which simply mean the grave. In some instances it was translated as the pit or the place of the dead, too. We see this from how the word Hades is translated in different versions
KJV, show Jesus speaking at Acts 2:27
'Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'
However, in the NIV and the for instance NLT, it's called grave. In the NAS it's called Hades and there are many more that translate the word correctly, simply as the grave. The word hell gives the meaning of the word Hades and sheol a wrong meaning. The meaning it has today. It is mankinds common grave, not a place of eternal punishment.
In Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [*] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (*Hebrew Sheol)
We see here that the dead know nothing. That means that they are not aware of anything. So how can they be aware of pain and suffering? They are simply asleep in death and are not suffering or in peace. They are in gods memory, awaiting the resurrection here on earth.
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come outthose who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.
KJV, show Jesus speaking at Acts 2:27
'Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'
However, in the NIV and the for instance NLT, it's called grave. In the NAS it's called Hades and there are many more that translate the word correctly, simply as the grave. The word hell gives the meaning of the word Hades and sheol a wrong meaning. The meaning it has today. It is mankinds common grave, not a place of eternal punishment.
In Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [*] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (*Hebrew Sheol)
We see here that the dead know nothing. That means that they are not aware of anything. So how can they be aware of pain and suffering? They are simply asleep in death and are not suffering or in peace. They are in gods memory, awaiting the resurrection here on earth.
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come outthose who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.
chuck010342
Active Member
Druidus said:
attacking? more like arguing. Attacking would be burning down a church or a synagoge.
Druidus said:
everybody has their own opinon right.
Druidus said:
you made two statments about things that you didn't define so allow me to do it.
God: King of the universe, All knowing, all powerful creation of the universe.
Hell: place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" eternal torment.
God created the world and made everything good, God had some laws in place mankind broke the laws, and now things are different. What happense when you break a law? you have to pay the price and the price is hell.
Druidus said:
think about it how can you even be of a different opinion of God?
Druidus said:
then don't break any of Gods laws and you won't go there.
Druidus said:
Yes I believe hell exsist, I don't know if you will go there I'm not God or you. I'm not all knowing so I don't know if you all will go there. It uneases me to think that you will go there, you don't have to.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, DeepShadow.DeepShadow said:
I think that, in order to fully explain LDS doctrine, though, you have to account for the third of the host of heaven that were cast out pre-mortally. You also have to consider the fate of those relative few that, during this lifetime, commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. In other words, the hell in the Spirit World will be a temporary one, but for the Sons of Perdition, Hell will be permanent. They will receive none of the glory God has promised to the rest of mankind. If I didn't know the LDS perspective on the subject, I think your post might lead me to believe that we don't believe in a permanent Hell for anyone.
Kathryn
Uncertaindrummer
Active Member
The thread creator simply does not understand the concpet of Hell.
First, God did not create Hell. Hell is the absence of God. Second, God does not send anyone to hell. We reject God, and when we reject God, we send ourselves to Hell.
Finally, you use the analogy of someone hurting YOU, and you couldn't "punish" them or "torture" them for nay amount of time. Well ,you could punish them, but it would have to depend on the crime. If they stole from you, they make reparations and give the item back. If they attempted to kill you, they go to jail for their life. Well God is INFINITE, so even the slightest offense could carry and infinite penalty. Now, since God is merciful, they don't--many people make major offenses agaisnt him for their whole lives without being punished, and after asking for forgivness, they are forgiven.
The entire idea of God rests upon Him being infinite.
First, God did not create Hell. Hell is the absence of God. Second, God does not send anyone to hell. We reject God, and when we reject God, we send ourselves to Hell.
Finally, you use the analogy of someone hurting YOU, and you couldn't "punish" them or "torture" them for nay amount of time. Well ,you could punish them, but it would have to depend on the crime. If they stole from you, they make reparations and give the item back. If they attempted to kill you, they go to jail for their life. Well God is INFINITE, so even the slightest offense could carry and infinite penalty. Now, since God is merciful, they don't--many people make major offenses agaisnt him for their whole lives without being punished, and after asking for forgivness, they are forgiven.
The entire idea of God rests upon Him being infinite.
Druidus
Keeper of the Grove
I understand the concepts of God and Hell. I just do not believe that a place such as Hell could exist. I'd like to believe that I am an honourable, just, and kind person. I commit no major wrongdoings, according to the Bible. And yet, I am sent to Hell merely for disbelieving in the Judeo-Christian God? Billions of people will be sent to hell for being born non-Judeo-Christian! Some, like me, were born into such a religion, but did not believe merely because they were told to, and converted. If they remain good people, why should they be sent to Hell?
Besides this, why should Hell exist at all? I don't think a place of eternal torment (absence of God, lake of fire, what-have-you, it's all the same) has any reason to exist. No "sin" is great enough. If God persists in even allowing such torment, well, I'm of the opinion that God is a bully in the sandbox.
Besides this, why should Hell exist at all? I don't think a place of eternal torment (absence of God, lake of fire, what-have-you, it's all the same) has any reason to exist. No "sin" is great enough. If God persists in even allowing such torment, well, I'm of the opinion that God is a bully in the sandbox.
goodjewishboy
Shalom!
Hell is not a concept in Judaism. Satan, in hebrew, means adversary. He acts as a counterpoint to G-d in the book of Job. Nowhere in the text says that arguing with the Creator is a sin. The afterlife is not clearly mentioned in the torah, and what I understand about the afterlife is gleaned out of what little I know of mysticism
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
The Bible states that Hell was made for the devil and his angels originaly. I dont like the idea myself, but I know the Bible is true, and thats what I go by. Here's something to consider. The Bible says God does not want anyone to go there, and out of his great love sent his son to die to pay for all our sins (all have sinned). Here is something- Jesus, who is infinite, only had to suffer a finite amount of time to pay for our sins. We who are finite, would have to suffer an infinite amount of time as we cannot pay for our sins. Jesus offers salvation as a totaly free gift, 'tho it cost him great suffering. Either Jesus is a lunatic, liar, or he is lord. his character and profound insights negate the first two, so he is lord. He warned us about Hell, he died so we dont have to go. He didnt say join this church, or follow this government, he said that if you belive in, or trust in him, you have eternal life and will not come into condemnation, but are passed from death to life. Jesus does love you, and I pray you will learn that God is love, too. Some things take time to understand. I could go on, but I gotta go. Hope that helps
The Black Whirlwind
Well-Known Member
You mean when we reject Christ. I know a lot of very good people who have not accepted Christ as their savouir, but still adhere to virtues Christianity promotes. That means they would go to hell just because they dont believe in Christ. We don't reject God, god rejects us. HE sends people to hell, not the other way around. If such a lowly god exists, i would rather burn for all eternity than spend a nanosecond with him. Then i would band together with Luke Wolf to vie for Satans thrown.Uncertaindrummer said:
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
joeboonda said:
Would you mind showing me the verses that say that. thanks!