Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Faminedynasty · Apr 8, 2005

In regards to the first point, if we ALL inherently deserve hell, then God is responsible for the design flaw and he, and not us, should be held accountable. Overthrown and replaced by a more decent God who will produce a model of man who is not so terrible at birth so as to deserve eternal damnation in hellfire and suffering.
In regards to the aggressive spread of Christianity, I understand that you think that all of us who do not conform to your culture are damned to hell, where our children will be burned alive forever and impaled on spikes because we did not think exactly like you, but, if your assumption that God forgives the innocent, if they do not know about Christ, then I would submit that the "blood" is on the hands of the Christians who so disrespectfully told us that our culture was crap, our beliefs a lie and our ancestors in hell, that we would never listen to them. It would have been better to let us never know about Christ, so the innocent would be saved. Now, thanks to the crusaders and bike riding mormons all those decent enough to have self-respect are damned to hell.
Finally, I will never buy the notion that Jesus absorbed your sins and that if you accept him you are free to live as despicable and amoral life as you wish without consequence. But I do believe that is a big reason why Christianity has spread so rapidly, and also why a religion founded by a man who would die before resorting to violence, a man who dedicated his life to love and the poor, has become a religion/political ideology based on warfare, killing, and hatred for the poor.
I will conclude by saying that I can't imagine why so many christians have such a low opinion of God. What they describe as his means of selecting those who get into heaven is simply bigotry. And I refuse to believe that God is a bigot. Besides, if he is, I want nothing to do with him. And to my mind, a Buddhist who understands the peace, love and compassion with which Christ lives, and lives as such, is closer to Christ than a "Christian" who lives a life of hate and thinks he is forgiven simply by invoking Christ's name.

Steve · Apr 8, 2005

Faminedynasty said:
In regards to the first point, if we ALL inherently deserve hell, then God is responsible for the design flaw and he, and not us, should be held accountable. Overthrown and replaced by a more decent God who will produce a model of man who is not so terrible at birth so as to deserve eternal damnation in hellfire and suffering.

Mankind inherently deserves hell thanks to itself, It was mankind that choose to go their own way and they were warned befor they choose. God is not responsible, he gave us freewill and we choose to rebel against him therefor he has full right to hold mankind accountable. He gave us 1 rule at the start just 1, God didnt want a group of robots(no freewill) to worship and honor him, if mankind couldnt choose an alternative then it isnt real worship and honor is it, hence their one rule. What are you choosing with your freewill?

Faminedynasty said:
In regards to the aggressive spread of Christianity, I understand that you think that all of us who do not conform to your culture are damned to hell, where our children will be burned alive forever and impaled on spikes because we did not think exactly like you, but, if your assumption that God forgives the innocent, if they do not know about Christ, then I would submit that the "blood" is on the hands of the Christians who so disrespectfully told us that our culture was crap, our beliefs a lie and our ancestors in hell, that we would never listen to them. It would have been better to let us never know about Christ, so the innocent would be saved. Now, thanks to the crusaders and bike riding mormons all those decent enough to have self-respect are damned to hell.

People arnt damed to hell on behalf of others God will judge you according to what you have done!
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatians 6:7

If you are damned to hell its because of your own sin not because you havnt heard of Jesus.

Faminedynasty said:
Finally, I will never buy the notion that Jesus absorbed your sins and that if you accept him you are free to live as despicable and amoral life as you wish without consequence.

Good the bible never says thats how it works.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27

If you havnt taken what Jesus did for you seriously then you will just use him like insurance to get into heaven, God knows our hearts and if we have truly repented. Once again
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatians 6:7

Faminedynasty said:
But I do believe that is a big reason why Christianity has spread so rapidly, and also why a religion founded by a man who would die before resorting to violence, a man who dedicated his life to love and the poor, has become a religion/political ideology based on warfare, killing, and hatred for the poor.

I will conclude by saying that I can't imagine why so many christians have such a low opinion of God. What they describe as his means of selecting those who get into heaven is simply bigotry. And I refuse to believe that God is a bigot. Besides, if he is, I want nothing to do with him. And to my mind, a Buddhist who understands the peace, love and compassion with which Christ lives, and lives as such, is closer to Christ than a "Christian" who lives a life of hate and thinks he is forgiven simply by invoking Christ's name.

You should keep in mind that not all who claim to be a christian really are, do you think God is fooled? Why would you judge a religion by those who live contradictory to it just because they claim to belong to it?

God didnt have to provide a way out for mankind remember mankind rebeled against him, what does he owe mankind? but he did because of his love, he wouldnt have gone through what he did if it wasnt for love.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

This is why some people are so passionate about the gospel, why some people try to tell everyone about this great news for mankind, why some are over in other countries as missionaries etc, their love compels them to spread the gospel so that as many as will listen will except what God has done to allow us to be reconciled. You yourself have obvioulsy heard the gospel, if you are really so concerned about all those who havnt how bout you go and share it? Oh thats right because many people havnt heard it so it musnt be true.

scitsofreaky · Apr 8, 2005

People arnt damed to hell on behalf of others God will judge you according to what you have done!

Yet someone else can pay our debts. Doesn't this seem inconsistent?

Hes passing out the free gift of salvation, with the only requirement is repenting of your sins and doing His will

Well then, it isn't free is it? Also, for us to follow "His will," we have to reject ourselves and our humanity, which is a very steep price to pay, and odd considering that God made us each individually.
Also, do you believe Jesus to be God? If so, doesn't that mean that Jesus' death was pointless because then God would be paying a debt owed to Himself. It would be as if you owed me money, so to forgive you, I took money out of my account, gave it to myself, and then said that your debt is payed as long as you did what I said for the rest of your life.

Steve · Apr 8, 2005

scitsofreaky said:
Yet someone else can pay our debts. Doesn't this seem inconsistent?

No this is a theme of the whole bible, in the OT animals were sacrificed for sin as a forshadow of what was to come. It is God who chooses how to punish our sin and if he is Just then he will make sure it is punished, if he is willing to become a man and go through what he did in order to satisfy his own justice then so be it, I thank God that i dont have too face his wrath and anger at my sin.
When Jesus was beaten and flogged then crucified this was the way he paid for our sins. Is it not ok for God to choose the punishment? What Christ went through was not pleasant. And after he had been through all this torture his final words were - "It is finished." He had paid the debt that we owed and bought our freedom with his blood.

scitsofreaky said:
Well then, it isn't free is it? Also, for us to follow "His will," we have to reject ourselves and our humanity, which is a very steep price to pay, and odd considering that God made us each individually.
Also, do you believe Jesus to be God? If so, doesn't that mean that Jesus' death was pointless because then God would be paying a debt owed to Himself. It would be as if you owed me money, so to forgive you, I took money out of my account, gave it to myself, and then said that your debt is payed as long as you did what I said for the rest of your life.

Well it is and it isnt

, It is a free gift in that God didnt have to offer us salvation he did though as a free gift, we didnt deserve it, but your right in that it does come at a price if we chose to except this gift. Im not sure what you mean by reject our humanity though. My life has only been better since excepting Jesus as my saviour.

I do belive Jesus to be God but this dosnt make his death pointless though, God throughout the bible has said that sin will be punished etc, so he will make sure its punished.
Imagine a judge and then a criminal comes befor him and its a family member someone the judge really loves, now the judge must still see to it that justice is served so he fines the criminal. Then he takes of his judge uniform walks over to the criminal/family menber and hands him the money, it came out of the judges own pocket and justice was served. Jesus still has the nail holes in his hands. It did cost him but he did it out of love.
Also whats so wrong with the requests made of you after you except this gift? You are expected to clean up your life, stay away from that which hurts you and others, Jesus summed up the commandments into 2, Love God with all that you are (isnt hard when you think about what he has done for you) and to Love your neighbour like yourself. Why do you have a problem with that?

scitsofreaky · Apr 8, 2005

No this is a theme of the whole bible

It is inconsistent with "reap what you sow."

Jaymes · Apr 8, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
Umm... okay. He is giving us free will. He will never "force" Himself down anybodies throat. Its our own decision if we follow Him or not. We have free will to decide, its just we can decide eternal torment and pain, or eternal life and happines. Its a choice.

That's not a choice.. that's a carrot at the end of a stick.

Melody · Apr 8, 2005

Jensa said:
That's not a choice.. that's a carrot at the end of a stick.

You can look at it that way...but you still have a choice. Take what is offered....or reject it.

Pah · Apr 8, 2005

barnardpi said:
Christ is the only way to heaven, but there are many ways to Christ. Jesus is one of those ways.

I understood it to be the grace of God

jewscout · Apr 8, 2005

The Righteous of all nations shall have a place in the World to Come:162:

painted wolf · Apr 8, 2005

Why would Creator make the fate of my people dependant on a man who lived thousands of years and thousands of miles apart from us?

Why would Creator condemn all the millions of people who lived in times and places apart from Jesus?

Creator in my faith sets up no tests and tricks to getting back to him. Everyone has the same potential to find thier way.
We need no 'savior' or mediator.

"The difference between the white man and us is this: You believe in the redeeming powers of suffering, if this suffering was done by somebody else, far away, two thousand years ago. We believe that it is up to every one of us to help each other, even through the pain of our bodies. ...We do not lay this burden onto our God, nor do we want to miss being face to face with the Spirit Power. ...We want no angel or saint to gain it for us and give it to us second-hand." -John Fire Lame Deer

wa:do

JesusIsTheWay · Apr 8, 2005

Why would Creator make the fate of my people dependant on a man who lived thousands of years and thousands of miles apart from us?

Because Jesus was God and He paid for our sins. "For the wages of sin is death" Somebody must pay the price. God has His perfect standard for humanity, and He decided to send His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins and take the punishment that we deserve. Then when we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, He sends His Spirt (the Holy Spirit) to dwell in us. So He lives in us, how much closer can you get?

Why would Creator condemn all the millions of people who lived in times and places apart from Jesus?

He doesn't, didn't and will never. We condemn ourselves by not believing in Jesus. "God sent His Son in the world not to condemn it, but to save it!"

Creator in my faith sets up no tests and tricks to getting back to him. Everyone has the same potential to find thier way.

Same as in mine. God has no favorites we all have the same oppertunity. "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved" God gives it to us straight up, accept Jesus or not. There is no "tests and tricks to getting back to him".

P.S. I have Cherokee blood in me too, as well as some other Native American tribes.

Have a good day\night
- David

Jaymes · Apr 8, 2005

I really don't understand why people say that God gave his only son to die for us... he didn't give anything. He got back what was his. That's not really a sacrifice.

Scuba Pete · Apr 8, 2005

If you understood it, you wouldn't have posed it as you did.

Jesus and God had a PERFECT union. No, we really can't understand that since none of us have everhad anything close to that. So God sent Jesus and Jesus humbled himself. He went through the pain and agony of dealing with non-believing humans and then through the pain and agony of dying on a cross. However, this was incredibly minor in coparison to the seperation that occurred when Jesus became sin. It's one of the few passages that the Apostles never translated, but choose to transcribe his actual words.

He did all this, knowing full well that most would mock him, his sacrifice and his followers. He counted it pure joy at that.

michel · Apr 8, 2005

NetDoc said:
If you understood it, you wouldn't have posed it as you did.

Jesus and God had a PERFECT union. No, we really can't understand that since none of us have everhad anything close to that. So God sent Jesus and Jesus humbled himself. He went through the pain and agony of dealing with non-believing humans and then through the pain and agony of dying on a cross. However, this was incredibly minor in comparison to the seperation that occurred when Jesus became sin. It's one of the few passages that the Apostles never translated, but choose to transcribe his actual words.

He did all this, knowing full well that most would mock him, his sacrifice and his followers. He counted it pure joy at that.

Net Doc, I'm ignorant of 'Jesus becomming sin' why' where and how ?

angellous_evangellous · Apr 8, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
Why is that?

Personally, I believe that because the Bible says it.

Yes, this is a most interesting question. If you want the heaven which Jesus describes, then He is the only way. If you want to make up your own ideas about heaven, then you get to make up the way. Whether or not you are correct is another question entirely.

Alien_Youth · Apr 8, 2005

I feel that if you are going to the heaven Jesus describes and preaches about then He is the ONLY way. however some people are deeply faithful to God without asking Jesus into their hearts and I feel that they would get into heaven as well

God Bless,

Alien Youth

Scuba Pete · Apr 8, 2005

Michel said:
Net Doc, I'm ignorant of 'Jesus becomming sin' why' where and how ?

II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

It happened here:

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

God, who can not be with sin, turned his head away from his son. Their perfect, eternal union had been severed.

ayani · Apr 8, 2005

the Quaker view on the divinity and role of Jesus is pretty diverse.... some of us believe that he was the son of God, and that following his teachings and believing in him is the only way to heaven.
others see him more as a spiritual role-model, but not divine. while others do not emphasize the person of Jesus in their spiritual lives.

the emphasis in liberal Quakerism (my branch) is generallyon the individual worshiper's spiritual experiences, less on what is traditionally accepted as sources of religious law and inspiration (e.g. The Bible). some early Quakers understood these spiritual experiences as more authorotative than the Bible to the extent that they burned their Bibles in protest of religious traditions.

similar sentiments were held about the traditional christian view of Jesus, as the only way, as divine, etc.

i personally don't have a view either way. while many Quakers in my meeting identify as Christian, i do not. therefor the person of Jesus does not have a central role in my spiritual life. however, i recognise the importance of many of his teachings to Quaker thought, such as non-violence and personal communion with God.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · Apr 8, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
Personally, I believe so. What do you think?

- David

Is He the way, the truth, and the life? Yes.

Does this require people to profess Him as their personal Lord and Savior? No.

Honestly, I don't think God cares that much about what we call Him (or Her) or how we reach up to Him. What He does care about, I think, has more to do with our growing mentally and spiritually so that we can become better people. That's something that we should be doing anyway.

angellous_evangellous · Apr 8, 2005

michel said:
I am very happy for you, you are content with your Religious dictates, and that is a blessing. From my own perspective, I personally disagree with the interpretation of that passage, but I may well be wrong; but who cares, we differ in our beliefs, but I respect yours, as I hope you do mine.

I can't frubal you for this, but I think that this is one of the most insightful statements that I have ever read in RF.

*swims in michel's pool of wisdom*

*gets out a new man*

Angellous

EDIT: The depth of this statement blows my mind. Mostly I see similar statements followed by a scoffing for someone following out of "blind faith."

I recently had my first Eucharist at 26 years old. It was the deepest worship experience that I have ever had in my life. After through review of the NT and the church fathers, I had to conclude that the Catholic/EO/Anglican view of the Eucharist is the historically correct practice for Christians. I grew up Baptist, where the Lord's Supper is pretty much a formality of worship rather than the center of the Christian celebration. The extreme depth of worship which beleif in the real presence of Christ brings to the celebration is intense. You said you are content with your Religious dictates, and that is a blessing.

I doubt that you can remove yourself from your point of view and truly imagine what it is like to participate with the divine so intimately. I know that I couldn't. The experience of faith in Jesus Christ can take you to incredible spiritual heights. I assure you that you are most correct: the blessing is an intense, unforgettable adventure with the Almighty.

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