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Bleeding Heart Tightwads

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It is a sham that Liberals play. They pretend to be the caring ones all the while they are the tight wads.

Talk the talk, but never walk the walk.

The fun part is, they think they are so much smarter. Watch them run when it is time to put up or shut up, they will do neither.

Tell me again who the greedy ones are?
 
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Smoke

Done here.
Who pays the most taxes? Conservatives or Liberals?

Who gives the most to charity?

Who donates more blood?
Now I know who Jesus was talking about! :D
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
It is a sham that Liberals play. They pretend to be the caring ones all the while they are the tight wads.

Talk the talk, but never walk the walk.

The fun part is, they think they are so much smarter. Watch them run when it is time to put up or shut up, they will do neither.

Tell me again who the greedy ones are?
I doubt you really know how much time, money or food I give to the poor, but thanks for the sneering anyway -- it's always good to reminded I could do more, regardless of the motive behind the reminder. :)
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I doubt you really know how much time, money or food I give to the poor, but thanks for the sneering anyway -- it's always good to reminded I could do more, regardless of the motive behind the reminder. :)

This is a reminder that I could do more as well. Without a doubt Bill, you are the exception to the rule and a good example for all Liberals.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I agree. Geed knows no political party.
Or it knows them all too well. I do think most people, myself included are quite greedy.

One thing to add. I've worked with charitable organisations. I know organisers, fundraisers and volunteers. Even with explicitly religious organisations like Christian Aid I haven't came across many people who expressed what I would consider 'conservative' opinions or beliefs. Many of the members are infact apolitical in some senses, but when we have spoken or I've simply received correspondence the issues always appear to be the ones that my fellow liberals are concerned with.

Perhaps the reason is simply confirmation bias on my part. Does anyone else have any experiences similar or divergent?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Now that I think about it, this is true to me as well. I can't think of a single person that I've worked with in a philanthropic setting that was particularly conservative. In fact they were all quite liberal-minded that I can recall. But except for personal experience, this doesn't really stand as evidence of anything. I have lived in mostly "liberal" areas of the country.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Who pays the most taxes? Conservatives or Liberals?

Who works harder for their money? A laborer or a pencil pusher?

Who gives the most to charity?
Mark 12:41-43 (NIV)
The Widow's Offering

41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,worth only a fraction of a penny. 43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."
Who donates more blood?
Probably the people who die in these wars that are being fought.
Wash Park Prophet: U.S. Military Demographics
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I've worked with charitable organisations. I know organisers, fundraisers and volunteers. Even with explicitly religious organisations like Christian Aid I haven't came across many people who expressed what I would consider 'conservative' opinions or beliefs. Many of the members are infact apolitical in some senses, but when we have spoken or I've simply received correspondence the issues always appear to be the ones that my fellow liberals are concerned with.
Now that I think about it, this is true to me as well. I can't think of a single person that I've worked with in a philanthropic setting that was particularly conservative. In fact they were all quite liberal-minded that I can recall. But except for personal experience, this doesn't really stand as evidence of anything. I have lived in mostly "liberal" areas of the country.
I know conservatives who work in charitable organizations, but only in the service side of things, soup kitchens, shelters, etc. They address the symptoms. But I don't know any who work to actually change systems of oppression, to get at the causes. I think this has to do with how liberals and conservatives approach things.

Which brings me to the question that I always have whenever someone brings up this study in a thread and then the conservatives go to town with their little liberal-bashing hate fest, which is "How did the studies define charitable contributions?"

As has already been addressed in the article, liberals are far less likely to give money to churches. And if you take that into consideration, the disparity is far less. I, for one, do not consider money to build lavish megachurches to be a "charitable" donation. Money to pay the heating bills for the church and the pastor's wages, yes. But not money to put marble and gold-plated fixtures in the bathrooms like I saw at the Crystal Cathedral.

I give a percentage of my income to organizations that I think make the world a better place. I make sure that the money is distributed between organizations that help people, animal welfare, and the environment. If the studies only consider organizations that help people to be "charitable organizations" then automatically they will count me as donating approximately 2/3 less than I actually do. I suspect something similar is true for other liberals.

Moreover, regardless of whether I am giving money to help people, animals, or the environment, I am less likely to give money to direct service organizations - ie, soup kitchens, homeless shelters - and more likely to give my money to organizations that are striving to make systemic changes. It's not that I think the direct service organizations are bad. They of course make a difference. It's just that I have a limited amount of money and want to maximize the good it can do. Once again, if the studies only count direct service as "charity" then they will count me as donating far less than I actually do. And I suspect something similar is true for other liberals.

So once again I ask, "How did the studies define charitable contributions?"

A couple of other responses to the article cited. Most of my friends work for non-profits. They work grueling hours for little pay and are burnt out. When the weekend comes, they are not inclined to spend their free time volunteering to do the same thing they do during the week. So no, I'm not surprised that they volunteer less.

As for liberals giving less blood than conservatives, shame on us. :(
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Mister T,

Out-of-wedlock births in general were low in the 1960's compared to today, Joe. As far as you thinking there's no connection between being poor and having illegitimate children:

All of the pieces of evidence you present occurred after the explosion of the welfare state. And your theory is easily falsified. All we have to do is find poor people with low out-of-wedlock births. African-Americans had low out-of-wedlock birth rates from the end of the Civil War to the 1960's. Yet they were poor. This proves your statement completely false. Like I said before, there is no logical connection that being poor leads to more out-of-wedlock births. The reason the rate of out-of-wedlock births increased was because the welfare state grew and it gave women a perverted financial incentive to have children outside of marriage.

This is liberal social programs making society considerably worse and yet you call yourselves compassionate.



I'm still wondering if you know the difference between the three. Personally, I don't think saving lives of people is "wasteful," but I'm a scrooge like that. And if the programs weren't fiscally sustainable, they wouldn't be here:
The program itself isn't the problem, it's the insurance companies/coverage that are the problem (the major ones). Socialized medicine would eliminate the stranglehold that insurance companies currently have on Americans. Sure we will be spending more taxes for such a program but we'll be saving lives and poeple won't have to take out a second mortgage to pay for a three day hospital visit. We don't seem to have a problem funding wars-that-should-not-have-been: Take the money we're spending on a ridiculous war (that thankfully will be ending soon) and put it towards healthcare for our people.

If you want to discuss this further we can start another thread: There are a variety of factors that make these programs undesirable, one that deserves it's own thread as we don't want to drag this any further off-topic.

Fair enough. I will start another thread discussing the merits and demerits of socialized healthcare.

I do not recall the name of every single church I've attended. I attended a church called Cornorstone for a while and had been to many others before and after. I'll sift through my memory banks and try to remember some more names.

It is pretty safe to say you were making things up, right? You said that churches tell their parishioners that they will not receive God's blessing if they don't tithe, yet you cannot find a single example of this actually happening. Just admit you made it up and we can move on.

Regardless though, the act of not tithing being looked down upon, is a part of the mainstream doctrine and is in your Bible:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebBible
The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes (2 Chr. 31:5,6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets (Amos 4:4; Mal. 3:8-10).

Tithe (WebBible™ Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net

Another interesting tidbit form that page I'd thought I throw in there, since it is directly related to what started this debate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebBible
At that time the theocratic government was also the civil government, so the tithes probably also included taxes.

clip_image001.gif

I didn't ask for biblical citations or historical studies of tithing. I simply asked you to provide the churches that you said say that if you don't tithe you will not receive God's blessing. You can't do it because you made it up.

Churches can and do coecre people to be there via guilt. Certainly not all of them, but it is an occurance even some Christians theselves have not denied. I can't force you to take those blinders off if you don't want to.

But your entire theory of churches coercing people is lie. It is predicated on a statement that you cannot provide one example of.

There is considerable irony in your argument here. You seem to accept the premise that taxation isn't compassionate (which is true), but in a bizarre twist you seek to bash churches by saying that they are just as bad as governments that forcibly take away money because they guilt you into giving to them (but then cannot provide actual examples of this happening). Interesting twist and turns in your logic.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
All of the pieces of evidence you present occurred after the explosion of the welfare state. And your theory is easily falsified. All we have to do is find poor people with low out-of-wedlock births. African-Americans had low out-of-wedlock birth rates from the end of the Civil War to the 1960's. Yet they were poor. This proves your statement completely false. Like I said before, there is no logical connection that being poor leads to more out-of-wedlock births. The reason the rate of out-of-wedlock births increased was because the welfare state grew and it gave women a perverted financial incentive to have children outside of marriage.

This is liberal social programs making society considerably worse and yet you call yourselves compassionate.
That's not because the existence of welfare, Joe. It's because you conservatives made it so that families receive less welfare assistance if both parents are in the household. You' conservatives have created a situation where people are rewarded for not getting married.

And you guys call yourselves the party of family values.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Without a doubt Bill, you are the exception to the rule and a good example for all Liberals.
No, I'm not. Trying to improve, though.

I know conservatives who work in charitable organizations, but only in the service side of things, soup kitchens, shelters, etc. They address the symptoms. But I don't know any who work to actually change systems of oppression, to get at the causes. I think this has to do with how liberals and conservatives approach things.
I think both are important.

As for liberals giving less blood than conservatives, shame on us. :(
Again, I'm not taking the rap for that one.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I think both are important.
As do I. But I know a lot of liberals who devalue service. I was recently giving a workshop on how UU congregations can be more effective in their social justice work and had mild trouble with one of the attendees who insisted that soup kitchens should not be listed under "social justice." I tried to explain to him that it's a continuum, with service on one end and advocacy on the other. The former accepts the rules of the system and works within it to make people's lives better on an individual level. The latter questions the rules of the system and works to change it to make people's lives better on a systemic level. Liberals tend to prefer the latter but as you said both are important. Liberals tend to be too heady/intellectual, imo, and forget that when people are fed at soup kitchens, real stomachs are filled. Yes, it's only temporary, but it's real. Whereas advocating for change could take years.


Again, I'm not taking the rap for that one.
Huh? :confused:

I used to give blood regularly in college and grad school. But once I traveled to rural Asia (which limits donations), had a couple of piercings (which also limits donations) and then had some health issues (the last time I gave blood, I went into shock), I haven't been good about it. It's been awhile. I really should go and try again and see what happens. :eek:
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi lilithu,

That's not because the existence of welfare, Joe.

Interesting how out-of-wedlock births skyrocket after the creation of the welfare state. Poor people before this used their heads a little bit and decided that not having kids when you're not married is a pretty good idea. Then some fifty years later people in this same situation decided it was a good idea to have children without being married. To you, there is no logical reason why this would happen. But if you understand economics and incentives you realize that it paid more to have children out of wedlock than to wait until they're married to have children.

It's because you conservatives made it so that families receive less welfare assistance if both parents are in the household. You' conservatives have created a situation where people are rewarded for not getting married.

This is a new one. Was LBJ and the architects of the Great Society conservatives? I don't think so. When you can prove that conservatives created the modern welfare state then your argument will be a bit more credible, until then your argument needs a little work.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
This is a new one. Was LBJ and the architects of the Great Society conservatives? I don't think so. When you can prove that conservatives created the modern welfare state then your argument will be a bit more credible, until then your argument needs a little work.
And your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. I didn't say that conservatives instated welfare. I said that as welfare was being instated (by liberals), conservatives made it so that people received less welfare if they were married with both parents in the house. THAT is the reason why low-income families on welfare intentionally do not get married. Not the welfare itself.

(You do understand that most legislation that passes is a compromise between both sides, right?)
 

Doc

Space Chief
Hey, I'm a conservative tightwad. I'm very in favor of charity, so long as it is voluntary. I'm uneasy about the government acting on my behalf and being "generous" with my money.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi lilithu,

And your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. I didn't say that conservatives instated welfare. I said that as welfare was being instated (by liberals), conservatives made it so that people received less welfare if they were married with both parents in the house. THAT is the reason why low-income families on welfare intentionally do not get married. Not the welfare itself.

So you admit that the welfare state is responsible for the sky-rocketing rate of out-of-wedlock births?

And two, can you provide specific evidence showing that conservatives created the perverse economic incentive where having children out-of-wedlock made you more money (in terms of federal financial assistance) than not having a child out of wedlock?
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
So you admit that the welfare state is responsible for the sky-rocketing rate of out-of-wedlock births?
NO, I'm saying that the perverse economic incentive to have kids out of wedlock is responsible for the rise. "Sky-rocketing" is a bit sensationalistic, dontcha think?


And two, can you provide specific evidence showing that conservatives created the perverse economic incentive where having children out-of-wedlock made you more money (in terms of federal financial assistance) than not having a child out of wedlock?
Are you questioning whether it's true that being married means you get less welfare assistance or that conservatives are behind that? The "marriage penalty" is common knowledge. You can look it up as easily as I can. As for whether conservatives are responsible, simple question for ya: Would you support eliminating the marriage penalty so that people's welfare assistance does not go down if they get married?

I'll go on record right now that I absolutely would support ending such an inane policy.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi lilithu,

NO, I'm saying that the perverse economic incentive to have kids out of wedlock is responsible for the rise. "Sky-rocketing" is a bit sensationalistic, dontcha think?


Well, before the welfare state out-of-wedlock births among African-Americans was around 30%, then the welfare state exploded you saw out-of-wedlock births 'increased' to a rate that exceeded 70%. I don't think calling that sky-rocketing is being sensationalistic at all.

Are you questioning whether it's true that being married means you get less welfare assistance or that conservatives are behind that? The "marriage penalty" is common knowledge. You can look it up as easily as I can. As for whether conservatives are responsible, simple question for ya: Would you support eliminating the marriage penalty so that people's welfare assistance does not go down if they get married?

II believe we are talking about two different things. I am talking about the welfare policy where a woman received more welfare benefits for every child born out of wedlock. Conservatives stopped this practice in the mid-90's with the welfare reform bill reluctantly signed by Clinton. That is the perverse welfare policy I am talking about. That you a woman can increase money to her from the federal government by having more children out-of-wedlock.

This policy made our society much, much worse.
 
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