David's first born

Elessar said:

The afterlife is rarely mentioned in scripture.

Click to expand...

And there are yet so many different beliefs on that very subject.

Berachiah Ben Yisrael said:

This could be a great opportunity to discuss where it is that it is promised that anyone is going to heaven. Where it is stated that babies or even young children go. Where it is even stated that pets go. Is it clearly written or is all this plainly the interpretations of man? We would have to go deeply into what it is that truly allows one to gain eternal life and then compare these stipulations on our questionable intentions.
Though this is, and will be a very touchy and emotional subject that I am sure many would rather not hear of much less read.

Click to expand...

Much of my biblical training comes from the Jehovah Witnesses... they believed everyone died and went to hell. Hell being nothing more than the ground... Sheol or Hades. They were buried. That is all.

Then there would be a great judgement and the 144,000 would goto heaven and Ill shorthand here... the rest either stay dead or get to live forever in a paradise on earth.

There are a few biblical verses for this... The rightous themselves will possess the earth and they will indeed reside forever upon it...

Are you implying that the bible says babies will not go to heaven or be resurected?

BalanceFx said:

Much of my biblical training comes from the Jehovah Witnesses...

Click to expand...

I’m a little familiar with them.

BalanceFx said:

they believed everyone died and went to hell. Hell being nothing more than the ground... Sheol or Hades. They were buried. That is all.

Click to expand...

I also agree with this. It is one of the curses on man from Adams sin.

BalanceFx said:

Then there would be a great judgement and the 144,000 would goto heaven and Ill shorthand here... the rest either stay dead or get to live forever in a paradise on earth.

Click to expand...

I can only partially agree with the whole of this. My understanding is that Yahshua will come and the dead that belong to him will be raised first then those alive will be translated and go to meet Yahshua in the first of the 3 heavens, which is where the birds fly, to be placed in the wilderness. The 144,000 will be chosen from among them. 12,000 from each tribe to go where ever Yahshua goes while the earth is prepared for the millennia reign. The rest will wait for the second resurrection or not be raised. Those raised will meet the judgment and will either enter into the kingdom on earth or go skinny dipping at the big BBQ.

BalanceFx said:

There are a few biblical verses for this... The rightous themselves will possess the earth and they will indeed reside forever upon it...

Click to expand...

I agree with this also.

BalanceFx said:

Are you implying that the bible says babies will not go to heaven or be resurected?

Click to expand...

I’m not implying anything. I would question it though. I question everything anyways. Its more fun that way.

Question………..

What does scripture state one should do to gain eternal life? Can a baby do this? Does a young child have the aptitude to understand, and as well, complete this? Now this question would and will gain many different views and understandings as to peoples thoughts and feelings but I ask for written proof as to scripture.

I have little or no problems with the atrocities in the Bible. It's just stories without historic background, archaeological evidence or contemporary confirmation to me.

What disturbs me more is what kind of evil mind the inventors of some of the stories had, but you can't blame anyone else than the respective author for that.

I applaud how completely far off the topic this has managed to get[/sarcasm]

:clap:curtsy::curtsy::clap

Elessar said:

I applaud how completely far off the topic this has managed to get[/sarcasm]

Click to expand...

I wouldn't agree we have strayed all that far. David was punished by god. God punished David by sickening a child who died 7 days later. I was questioning the morality of punishing another, espcially an innocent baby, to punish David.

It was then put forth that perhaps the baby did not suffer and while god did murder this child its not a convential murder in that he simply took the baby to heaven.

Another view presented that the baby did not meet the criteria to go to heaven so therefore the baby will not be raised up. I don't think we can know what happened to the baby but if you read that chapter in context, after David learns of the babies death he says that he will go to the baby. That could mean he thought the baby went to heaven and that he would be united again some day.

So its a tangent off the topic but a relavant one. Ultimately I think everyone will decide for themselves why God killed the baby in the manner he did. Making a baby very sick with the declared intention of killing it for the purpose of punishing the father does not strike me as just or moral. In order to refute that many people are going to invoke their personal interpretation to show that they disagree and why they disagree.

Berachiah Ben Yisrael said:

The rest will wait for the second resurrection or not be raised. Those raised will meet the judgment and will either enter into the kingdom on earth or go skinny dipping at the big BBQ.

Click to expand...

Witnesses don't really believe in a big BBQ. (Atleast not when I was a witness which admittedly hasn't been the case for some time now) My understanding is the modern meaning of hell is derived from 3-4 words of the orginal textsL Sheol or Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna.

Sheol or Hades are simply meant as ground. When you die you become unconscious and nothing happens in relation to you. This is much like my view now as an atheist. Modern science indicates that our brain is the seat of consciousness and though they are still striving to explain our minds they have some rather enlightening theories and are getting closer to understanding the mind of man. (I always found it amusing when people claim to know the mind of god when man does not yet know its own mind.) If the mind dies so does it consciousness. It is the end as far as the person who has died knows. (Some notes: You will in 2009 be able to buy an interface to control your PC with your mind, Dan Dennett on our consciousness | Video on TED.com)

Greydon Square said:

If the memories of our life’s retained in the brain,
And the brain dies, inside it nothing remains,
Wouldn’t that mean you would have absolutely and positively no recollection or account of previous things,
When you die?
Angels and demons devils and Gods do not await you

Click to expand...

Gehenna means the valley of Hinnom where there was a gouge in the earth and they burned corpses and other garbage. The valley was literally always burning and probably smelled horrible. It is used in a variety of ways but some of the more allegorical interpretations I have read say that following the judgement some people will literally be sent to an outer darkness and deprived of god. There they will suffer and reflect for ages and ages but not for eternity. This area is reserved only for really evil humans and angels but not so evil as to never be raised again. They will get a second chance to be with god eventually.

So would the baby be going to hell? The witnesses would probably say so but then it would be raised and judged later.

BalanceFx said:

• You claimed that seven days is a short time. Did Jesus suffer for even 7 days?

Click to expand...

I was waiting for someone to say that.

Jesus' death was much different than the baby's death. No, he didn't suffer on the cross for 7 days, but he was put to death for blasphemy, which was a horrible accusation for the son of God. He also suffered separation from God, which WE do not suffer unless we go to hell. We don't know how much pain, if any, the child had, but the bible does go into great detail about the painful events leading up to Jesus hanging on the cross.