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ID, the scientific community, and bias

Vash

Member
critics of evolution get alot of ridicule from people with a mindset not too different from the mindset that condemned Galileo. the scientific community at that time attacked him because his ideas threatened the entire framework through which they viewed the world.

a similar situation exists today with evolution. discussion of other theories and/or weaknesess of evolution are simply not tolerated. true cause of the debate: worldviews in conflict.

facts dont always speak for themselves. they're interpreted according to a framework. the framework used to interprete facts is inevitably affected by prior philosophical beliefs about the existence or non-existence of a creator.

so it’s not about biased religious creationists versus objective scientific evolutionists. its about the biases of religions versus the biases of the religion of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same scientific data.

nobodys perfect, and scientists are people too. a mistake scientists have been known to make is to ignore or rule out data which do not support a hypothesis. ideally, the experimenter is open to the possibility that the hypothesis is correct or incorrect. sometimes, however, a scientist may have a strong belief that the hypothesis is true (or false), or feels internal or external pressure to get a specific result. in that case, there may be a psychological tendency to find "something wrong" with data which do not support the scientists expectations, while data which do agree with those expectations may not be checked as carefully.

if honest mistakes were all we had to worry about that would be one thing. but we also have to worry about the possibility of outright fraud. do a search on the net for evolution fraud or science fraud. see how many hits you get. The most widely published evolution fraud was committed in China in 1999. http://www.trueorigin.org/ng_ap01.asp


When you actually bother to learn a thing or two about the development, rise and fall of the geocentric worldview, it seems the people who most resemble the defenders of that worldview are not the opponents of evolution, but its proponents.
http://www.boundless.org/2000/departments/isms/a0000288.html
 

Hazel

Member
I completely agree and applaud you. I thought this quote might be appropriate for such a post, though it was included in a message I wrote for another topic on the boards.
"Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible." -Professor D.M.S. Watson "Adaptation" Nature
 

Pah

Uber all member
Actually Vash, I think the shoe is on the other foot. It is religion that is biased and has so much to lose. Well, not all religion, but just those Christians that take a literalist view of the Bible. For if Creationism and it's twin brother, ID is debunked and evolution is accepted, then the very foundation of the Bible is shaken. Science has nothing to lose but that Christiian minority has everything to lose. If you lose the creation story, you stand a good chance of losing "original sin" and without original sin you lose the reason for Christ.

The same risk attends the flood story, if you ever realize that indeed Noah is nothing but myth. Myth in one part of Genesis, jeopardizes the other part so cruicial to faith.

But science ... well scince can take glory in being wrong for that is what science is all about. It corrects and expands into newer vistas. You just can't take an ancient, staid faith and say the same thing.
 

Albino

Member
pah said:
Actually Vash, I think the shoe is on the other foot. It is religion that is biased and has so much to lose. Well, not all religion, but just those Christians that take a literalist view of the Bible. For if Creationism and it's twin brother, ID is debunked and evolution is accepted, then the very foundation of the Bible is shaken. Science has nothing to lose but that Christiian minority has everything to lose. If you lose the creation story, you stand a good chance of losing "original sin" and without original sin you lose the reason for Christ.

The same risk attends the flood story, if you ever realize that indeed Noah is nothing but myth. Myth in one part of Genesis, jeopardizes the other part so cruicial to faith.

But science ... well scince can take glory in being wrong for that is what science is all about. It corrects and expands into newer vistas. You just can't take an ancient, staid faith and say the same thing.
OMG Pah you are so naive! EVERYONE is biased! Everyone has a Worldview to to twist their outlook on life. Not just religious people. I'm shocked that you can't see that. ID vs. Evolution could impact the culture war in several battlefronts:
The Supremacy of the State vs. The Sovereignty of God... Moral Relativism vs. Absolute Truth... Darwin vs. Moses... Abortion vs. The Right to Life... Socialism vs. Capitalism... Old Media vs. New Media... Materialism & Decadence vs. Decency & Contentment...

So yes, the Culture of Evolutionism has much to lose.
Galileo's opponents would not have admitted to being biased either.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Albino said:
OMG Pah you are so naive! EVERYONE is biased! Everyone has a Worldview to to twist their outlook on life. Not just religious people. I'm shocked that you can't see that. ID vs. Evolution could impact the culture war in several battlefronts:
The Supremacy of the State vs. The Sovereignty of God... Moral Relativism vs. Absolute Truth... Darwin vs. Moses... Abortion vs. The Right to Life... Socialism vs. Capitalism... Old Media vs. New Media... Materialism & Decadence vs. Decency & Contentment...

So yes, the Culture of Evolutionism has much to lose.
Galileo's opponents would not have admitted to being biased either.
I'm really sorry you would reduce me to "naive". Please show, in another thread, where the methology of science is biased. Please show where, in a separate thread, where is the contest constutionally of any sovereignty of God in regard to US law.. I detect bias in the chosen "abortion" vs. The Right to Life - please, in another thread, show why the constitutional Right of Choice should not be used. You really should move out of "glass houses".

I feel that your response is a feeble attempt not to address the points I made.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Once again the IDists attack Evolutionists as Athiests and Secular Humanists....

I feel so lonely... I'm and Evolutionist and a Thiest.... :cool:

And Vash, Archeoraptor was never a "scientific" hoax... it was never a published find, the hoax (thanks to an eager farmer who wanted a pritty specimin to sell on the black market) was discovered before it could be scientifically discribed.
The mistake with Archeoraptor was with an over eager Jurnalist, not a scientist. The Jurnalist didn't check all thier facts and rushed a 'scoop' to the press. The scoop turned out to be falce.

Its sad that IDists/creationists have nothing better to do than pick on a Jurnalist and blame the Paleontologists who after all discovered the hoax BEFORE it would normally have been published.

Evolution has NOTHING to do with the presance or absence of a god.
Please stop blaming the "biased" Athiests and Secular Humanists for everything. :tsk:

wa:do
 

Vash

Member
painted wolf said:
Once again the IDists attack Evolutionists as Athiests and Secular Humanists....
Wrong. I attack the mindset of those who attacked Galileo...the same mindset that can be seen around here unfortunetly.


painted wolf said:
And Vash, Archeoraptor was never a "scientific" hoax... it was never a published find, the hoax (thanks to an eager farmer who wanted a pritty specimin to sell on the black market) was discovered before it could be scientifically discribed.
The mistake with Archeoraptor was with an over eager Jurnalist, not a scientist. The Jurnalist didn't check all thier facts and rushed a 'scoop' to the press. The scoop turned out to be falce.
completely beside the point. its not like there arent other examples of fraud. http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html


painted wolf said:
Evolution has NOTHING to do with the presance or absence of a god
niether did the concept of a flat-earth opponents of Galileo defended.


painted wolf said:
Please stop blaming the "biased" Athiests and Secular Humanists for everything
everything? did i say that? if so i take it back. dont mean to blame them for EVERYTHING, lol. just for bieng every bit as biased as the religious people they scoff at.

or are you saying that Athiests and Secular Humanists are bias free? if that was the case, then why would i be getting harrassed by people from this forum for defending ID? why would people be trying to get my account deleted? why would people bother tracking my IP address? because im right, thats why. i hit too close to the mark with some of you...people dont like to realize they are little better than the closed-minded fools who attacked Galileo...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Vash said:
... why would people be trying to get my account delelted? why would people be tracking my IP address? beacause im right, thats why.

:eek: Oy vey! The Godless Conspiracy at work again. Where is McCarthy when we need him? :eek:
 

Vash

Member
the more you mock, the more convinced i get that im right. so please keep it up Deut.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Vash,

If you would, please present to us the evidence you have for
Vash said:
if that was the case, then why would i be getting harrassed by people from this forum for defending ID? why would people be trying to get my account deleted? why would people bother tracking my IP address?
To be honest, it smacks of a conspiracy theory.

This forum is all about debate. Please don't relegate the disagreements amongst us to the status of an attack! That is ludicrous.
 

Vash

Member
NetDoc said:
Vash,

If you would, please present to us the evidence you have for To be honest, it smacks of a conspiracy theory.

This forum is all about debate. Please don't relegate the disagreements amongst us to the status of an attack! That is ludicrous.
this is no mere disagreement i assure you. i got a disturbing pm from someone this morning, but i dont think it would be appropriate to repeat it. i cant name names at this point.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
So, it's a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists, eh?

As an outspoken Christian, I have had NO such threats leveled at me. So obviously, I find such accusations as somewhat preposterous.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Vash said:
this is no mere disagreement i assure you. i got a disturbing pm from someone this morning, but i dont think it would be appropriate to repeat it. i cant name names at this point.
But not at all inappropriate for Rex et al to investigate. Since only forum administrators would be in a position to "be trying to get [your] account delelted [sic]" or "tracking [your] IP address?", your claims are extremely serious assertions concerning the ethics and integrity of the forum itself. If true, these actions deserve to be fully exposed. If not, you deserve to be fully exposed.
 

Vash

Member
"your claims are extremely serious assertions concerning the ethics and integrity of the forum itself."

i suppose so. i mean if a mod doesn't like me and decides to track me, in order to attempt to get me banned...wether i did something wrong or not...it says that mods can use thier power against people they simply dont agree with.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Vash said:
i suppose so. i mean if a mod doesn't like me and decides to track me, in order to attempt to get me banned...it says that mods can use thier power against people they simply dont agree with.
I have formally requested a full investigation of your claim. I suspect that we both know what it will show ...
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
painted wolf said:
Once again the IDists attack Evolutionists as Athiests and Secular Humanists....

I feel so lonely... I'm and Evolutionist and a Thiest.... :cool:
You are not alone - there's me too.:help:

And Vash, Archeoraptor was never a "scientific" hoax... it was never a published find, the hoax (thanks to an eager farmer who wanted a pritty specimin to sell on the black market) was discovered before it could be scientifically discribed.
The mistake with Archeoraptor was with an over eager Jurnalist, not a scientist. The Jurnalist didn't check all thier facts and rushed a 'scoop' to the press. The scoop turned out to be falce.

Its sad that IDists/creationists have nothing better to do than pick on a Jurnalist and blame the Paleontologists who after all discovered the hoax BEFORE it would normally have been published.

Evolution has NOTHING to do with the presance or absence of a god.
Please stop blaming the "biased" Athiests and Secular Humanists for everything. :tsk:

wa:do
I agree entirely, but I think we might be in the minority.:eek:
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Vash said:
this is no mere disagreement i assure you. i got a disturbing pm from someone this morning, but i dont think it would be appropriate to repeat it. i cant name names at this point.
Your signature is 'Love and peace' , Vash. Is that meant to be 'for export only' ?:)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
so the best you can come up with for 'scientific fraud' is a Jurnalistic error(arheoraptor), a species that was named twice by seperate finders (brontosaurus/apatosaurus), a popular/non-scientific misconception (neartal=brute), 2 mistaken identifications that were corrected within a year of discovery and before publication(nebraska and Ocre)

how about some religous 'scientific' frauds(taken from Christian sources):
http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/hovind.htm
http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/index.php?title=CH010

some not christian:
http://gondwanaresearch.com/rate.htm

anyway, you get the idea... pots and kettles.
Science at least admits they make mistakes and trys to correct them.

so it’s not about biased religious creationists versus objective scientific evolutionists. its about the biases of religions versus the biases of the religion of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same scientific data.
you equate science with secular humanism and the data interpritation with said religion or lack there of... this is a poor ad hominim... Scientists are not all Secular humanists nor Athiests...
My interpretation of the point of your post is based on your words. ;)

i mean if a mod doesn't like me and decides to track me, in order to attempt to get me banned...wether i did something wrong or not...it says that mods can use thier power against people they simply dont agree with.
All I'll say about this for now is that this is a SERIOUS charge not to be made or taken lightly... if you felt you had a problem you should bring it up with Rex or Maize.

wa:do
 

Vash

Member
painted wolf said:
All I'll say about this for now is that this is a SERIOUS charge not to be made or taken lightly...
yes it is. and i stand by it.

they tried to silence Galileo too. its hard going against the scientific community, and those who have absolute faith in them.

history sighs, repeats itself.
 
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