the legal rights of Israel

S-Word, you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that it is possible to be a faithful Christian and hold to the decisive authority of scripture yet come away with a different view from yours. Part of the reason for that, I'd say, is that you've badly misconstrued scripture at a number of points, and it would take a great deal of time and exegesis to point them all out to you. I think the process would be worth the time, but I don't think you're ready for it.

It would appear from your attack on the gospel of Matthew and the Old Testament, that you are not here to constructively debate Biblical truth, but simply to attack and ridicule any comment pertaining to any Biblical scripture that is expressed. Is this the case, do you denounce the entire Bible as being false and irrelevant, or do you simply choose the little dainty pieces of the Lamb of God, that titillate the taste buds of your mind and reject the head, hoofs and intestines that seem offensive to your spiritual taste? [/quote]

No ~ I do not believe the bible is false. Most of the bible is a historical statement of of the children of Israel even though much of it is many times written many years after the fact. Matthew almost did not make it into the canon because of many erros in it. The books of the bible were written by men not God and that is why there are so many contridictions in it. These are facts wheather you like it or not.

Dunemeister said:

S-Word, you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that it is possible to be a faithful Christian and hold to the decisive authority of scripture yet come away with a different view from yours. Part of the reason for that, I'd say, is that you've badly misconstrued scripture at a number of points, and it would take a great deal of time and exegesis to point them all out to you. I think the process would be worth the time, but I don't think you're ready for it.

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Let me first refresh your memory my dear friend Dunemeister: Below is a thread that I have recorded in this forum which shows that I believe that those who are far removed from the truth of scripture can still be, not only wonderful members within the body of mankind, in which body there develops ‘The Son of Man,’ who is heir to the throne of the most high in creation, but are even more valuable within society than those, who through diligent study of scripture and having a far greater understanding of the truth revealed therein, do not live the life required by scripture, which those who have little understanding of the truth, by nature do so.

Question: Just because something is recorded in the Bible, should we believe it to be the infallible gospel truth?

Acts 7, Stephen, a Greek speaking Jew who had been dragged before the Jewish authorities by Saul, in defence of his faith before being stoned to death, stated in acts 7: 4, that it was after Terah had died that his son Abraham obeyed God’s command and went to live in the land of Canaan. But the record in Genesis makes it plain that after Terah had turned 70 not 75 or 80, he became the father of Abraham, Nahor and Haran, and that Abraham was 75 when he travelled to Canaan and that his father died 60 years later at the age of 205.

Stephen also states in Acts 7: 15-17, that Abraham bought the grave plot for Sarah in the land of Shechem from Hamor, whereas Genesis shows that Abraham bought the grave site from Ephron the Hittite at Machpeleh east of Mamre, which is way to the south of Shechem. It is also said by Stephen in the same verses, that Jacob and his sons were buried at Shechem, when in fact, it was only the remains of Joseph which was buried there, see Joshua 24: 32.

Jacob and his other sons were buried at Mamre and concerning the buriel of Jacob, it is written in Genesis 50: 13, “They carried the body of Jacob to Canaan and buried it in the cave at Machpelah east of Mamre in the field which Abraham had bought from Ephron the Hittite.” How many people have we heard or who have written the erroneous statement of Stephen, that it was after his father had died that Abraham Journeyed into the land of Canaan? Just because something is stated in scripture, some people take it to be the gospel truth without checking it out.

Stephen was neither a teacher nor a preacher, but was a newly converted Greek speaking Jew, and because the widows of this group were being neglected in the daily distribution of funds, he with six others were chosen to handle the finances, and although he was filled with the Holy Spirit, he did not speak the truth because he did not know the truth, for knowing the truth has nothing to do with the blessings of the Holy Spirit. The world is filled with wonderful people who are a blessing to the communities in which they live, and who are ignorant to the truth of God’s word, (Blessed are they who do not see, and yet believe) these people are not filled with knowledge, but they are filled with the love and the power of the holy Spirit.

And now, how may I ask, are you able to make a critical analysis of my beliefs, when you haven’t got a clue as to what those beliefs are? While on the other hand, I, who have for over fifty years studied the beliefs of Christians relative to the truth as revealed in scripture, maintain that I have the authority to make a critical analysis of the Christian beliefs and am prepared to defend that right here and now. So let us now show to the viewers of this thread, whether it is your view of scriptures or mine, which has been misconstrued?

Watch nearly any Christian TV show or read the many Christian books, or ask the question of the greater majority of Christians, concerning the birth of Jesus, and you will be shown that they believe that after Jesus was born, the wise men visited the manger in Bethlehem to pay homage to the child that they believed was the prophesied King and saviour of Israel, and that on being warned in a dream that Herod would send his men to Bethlehem of Judea to slaughter the child, Joseph the step father of Jesus got up that very night and fled the town of Bethlehem of Judea to seek refuge in the land of Egypt, taking with him, his wife Mary and her child Jesus. And now I will give my belief according to the truth as revealed in scripture, then you may make a critical analysis of my belief and reveal to all who will read your comments, who is correct, myself, who believes the truth of scripture or the so called Christians who reject the truth of God’s word in favour of the doctrines and traditions handed down by men who were ignorant to the truth, and yet not necessarily bad people. My belief which you are asked to critically analyse is in the following post .

Dunemeister said:

S-Word, you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that it is possible to be a faithful Christian and hold to the decisive authority of scripture yet come away with a different view from yours. Part of the reason for that, I'd say, is that you've badly misconstrued scripture at a number of points, and it would take a great deal of time and exegesis to point them all out to you. I think the process would be worth the time, but I don't think you're ready for it.

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It is my belief, according to Luke, that it was in a manger in the southern town of Bethlehem of Judea as opposed to the town of Bethlehem in Galilee, which is today called ‘Beitlahm,’ that the first son of Mary was born. And eight days later it was circumcised and named Jesus. Then 33 days after the circumcision according to the law as recorded in Leviticus 12: 4, the child was carried openly from Bethlehem to the Temple in Jerusalem which was close to the palace of Herod who had no idea of the birth of Jesus at that time, where the sacrifice for the ceremony of purification was offered up. If the family had been given gifts of Gold, etc and being righteous people, they would have given the one year old lamb that was required for the burnt offering by those who could afford it, but if they could not afford to buy a lamb they were to offer two doves or pigeons, which they did. Then, when everything had been done according to the law of Moses, they returned to their home in Nazareth.

The wise men are thought to have been Astronomer Astrologers from Mesopotamia who apparently knew of the ancient Jewish connection of Jacob to the planet Jupiter, in 7 BC while observing the conjunction between Jupiter and Satan, apparently they saw a previously unobserved star which appeared to be coming out of Jupiter=Jacob, (Numbers 24: 17, a star shall come out of Jacob and a King shall arise in Israel etc) then in six BC, with the conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars, the incoming star would have been seen to be much brighter, then in the spring of 5 BC with the appearance of a comet with a massive tail which is recorded in the very reliable source of Chinese history, they would have been convinced that here was the prophesied heavenly sign that was to herald the birth of the Great King and savour of Israel.

Travelling to Jerusalem to pay homage to the new King, the comet disappeared, apparently being hidden behind the sun, Herod then called them to a secret meeting and enquired of them the exact time that they saw the star which was to herald the birth of the long awaited king and savour and it was in accordance with the information he received from the wise men that he determined the age of the children who were to be slaughtered, ‘all the males who were two years of age and below. Having been told that the child was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea, the wise men left the palace and the star appeared once again, emerging from behind the sun in its return Journey out to the orbit of Jupiter and it guided the wise men, not to Bethlehem of Judea, but to Nazareth in Galilee which could be seen from the northern city of Bethlehem.

We can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel it’s late in the day and as they come to a rise, there on the distant horizon in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its massive tail streaking up into the heaven and appearing to stand over the small and insignificant Nazareth. The term “Stood Over” in ancient literature refers to comets and comets only. And we are told that the star 'Stood Over' the HOUSE in which was Mary with her almost two year old child. That night, the wise men who would have travelled to Jerusalem across the Kings Highway, were warned not to reveal to Herod the child’s whereabouts, returned home by a different route from which they had come, which would have more than likely been up through Damascus and Joseph was warned to take the child and there and then to flee into Egypt.

Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the childs location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district around Bethlehem who were two years and below according to the time that he learned from the wise men abut when they had first sighted the star that was to herald the birth of the promised king and savour. Then in 4 BC shortly before the death of Herod after a failed suicide attempt, many families in the city of Sepporhus which is but spitting distance from the northern town that was called Bethlehem, lost their lives.

Friends of the RF all I have to say is S-word must be smoking some very strong weed seed to come up with the distortion of the scriptures in post #24

S-word, even if your description of Jesus' birth is an adequate harmonization of the biblical accounts, and even if the "wise men" accomplished their journey the way you describe, it's possible (indeed, accurate) to say that Palestine is no longer divinely appointed as Israel's home. Jesus redefined what the word "Israel" means (from a Christian point of view). On that redefinition, the physical land of Palestine isn't even relevant.

Dunemeister said:

S-word, even if your description of Jesus' birth is an adequate harmonization of the biblical accounts, and even if the "wise men" accomplished their journey the way you describe, it's possible (indeed, accurate) to say that Palestine is no longer divinely appointed as Israel's home. Jesus redefined what the word "Israel" means (from a Christian point of view). On that redefinition, the physical land of Palestine isn't even relevant.

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Then you would reject Zechariah's account where it speaks of the Lord who sent the man Jesus in his name as his earthly image who did, nor said anything other than that which the Lord had commanded, thereby revealing himself to the world through his obedient servant Jesus of whom he says when he comes to save Israel on that great day of tribulation on which day he gathers all the nations around Jerusalem, Zechariah 12: 10,they will look upon me and see the one who they pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child etc.

The Lord will come to fight for his people Israel as he has fought in times past and from within the inner most sanctuary of his tabernacle which is the body of mankind the most high in the creation and Lord of all creatures, he will fight the enemies of Israel; those Nations who surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea. The Lord will throw them into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while still standing.
Then all the surviving Nations will go up each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, (which you continue to call Palestine) to worship the Lord as King and woe betide those who refuse to do so, See Zechariah 14.


Numbers 24: 17, “A king, like a bright star, will arise in that Nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel (Not Palestine). He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. (Not those Christian Nations who you believe that Jesus redefined as Israel)The Nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.” Do you not believe the word of the Lord as spoken through the prophet Balaam the son of Beor, or have you misconstrued it as most Christians have and somehow (which is beyond my ability to comprehend) believe that this prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago when the Lord sent, in his name “Who I Am,” the young Israelite Jesus, to do and say only that which he was commanded.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”

I pray that you do not show your support for those who would attempt to disinherit God’s chosen people from the land that was bequeathed to them by the Lord. Did you dance and rejoice with the enemies of Israel on 9-11? Will you stand with them when they surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive the chosen of the Lord into the sea?

Arlanbb said:

Friends of the RF all I have to say is S-word must be smoking some very strong weed seed to come up with the distortion of the scriptures in post #24

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And what don't you believe young fellow? Perhaps you believe that professor Colin J Humpherys of Cambridge university who writes of the conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC, and that of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars in 6 BC and of the comet that appeared in the spring of 5 BC as recorded in ancient Chinese history which he believes to be the ‘Star of Bethlehem, doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. Or perhaps you do not believe Luke who records the fact that Jesus was born in the southern town of Bethlehem of Judea, was circumcised 8 days later and taken to the Temple in Jerusalem 41 days after his birth, where the ceremony of purification was preformed 33 days after he was circumcised, and that after everything had been done according to the law of Moses they returned to their home in Nazareth. Please feel free to point out where I have so far distorted the scriptures.

Or seeing as you appear to reject Matthew, I suppose that you do not believe that Herod called the men to a secret meeting as recorded in Matthew 2: 7, and enquired of them the exact time that they had first seen the star that heralded the birth of the promised Messiah, and that according to Matthew 2:16, it was in accordance with what he had learned from the wise men about the time when the star first appeared, that he determined that the age of the children who were to be slaughtered, which was two years and below. And I suppose you believe that I have distorted the scriptures when I said that by the time that the wise men reached Jerusalem, the comet had disappeared and only reappeared after they had left Herod, for as Matthew says in 2: 9, “When they had heard the King they departed; and lo, the star they had seen in the east appeared and oh what joy was theirs and it went ahead of them and guiding them to where the child was, but of course, you don’t believe Matthew do you?

Professor Colin J Humpherys stated that at the time of the conjunction of Jupiter = Mushtari, it was in the constellation of Pisces, ‘or Parwin as the wise men would have known it,’ in the northern Hemisphere. Travelling back to its aphelia in the orbit of Jupiter in the constellation of Pisces, the men following in the direction of the star would have been led to the North of Jerusalem, don’t you think?

Omar Khayyam:
I tell you this ---When started from the goal.
Over the flaming shoulders of the Foal
Of heav’n Parwin and Mushtari they flung,
In my predestined plot of dust and soul

Could it be that you don’t believe that the term ‘Stood Over” in ancient literature refers to comets and comets only? Did I distort the scriptures when I said that the star ‘Stood Over’ the HOUSE wherein the child was and not the manger or the Inn, or that the men, see Matthew 2: 12, were warned not to return to Herod as promised, and chose a different route home from that on which they had came? Was there not a city called Bethlehem in Galilee only about 2 kilometres from Sepphoris,and was not the city of Sepphoris attacked in 4 BC shortly before the death of Herod the Great, in which many families lost their lives? Is there any evidence of any great conflict around Bethlehem of Judea about 4 BC, which would have been around the time that Herod ordered the death of the innocents?

Methinks your fixation on smoking strong weed seed, has clouded your mind and you’re beginning to bore me with your negativities.

S-word said:

Then you would reject Zechariah's account where it speaks of the Lord who sent the man Jesus in his name as his earthly image who did, nor said anything other than that which the Lord had commanded, thereby revealing himself to the world through his obedient servant Jesus of whom he says when he comes to save Israel on that great day of tribulation on which day he gathers all the nations around Jerusalem, Zechariah 12: 10,they will look upon me and see the one who they pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child etc.

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Yes, all this has to be reinterpreted in light of Jesus' reformulation of Israel around himself. Faithful Israel are those people who attach themselves to him, regardless of what country they reside in or their ethnicity.

The Lord will come to fight for his people Israel as he has fought in times past and from within the inner most sanctuary of his tabernacle which is the body of mankind the most high in the creation and Lord of all creatures, he will fight the enemies of Israel; those Nations who surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea. The Lord will throw them into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while still standing.

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Then all the surviving Nations will go up each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, (which you continue to call Palestine) to worship the Lord as King and woe betide those who refuse to do so, See Zechariah 14.

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Yes, in light of the internationalization of the people of God, Zechariah 14 is in for some re-interpretation.

Numbers 24: 17, “A king, like a bright star, will arise in that Nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel (

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Not Palestine). He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. (Not those Christian Nations who you believe that Jesus redefined as Israel)The Nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.” Do you not believe the word of the Lord as spoken through the prophet Balaam the son of Beor, or have you misconstrued it as most Christians have and somehow (which is beyond my ability to comprehend) believe that this prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago when the Lord sent, in his name “Who I Am,” the young Israelite Jesus, to do and say only that which he was commanded.

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I've never called the Christian nations Israel. See above for a clarification on how Jesus redefined Israel. And yes, the "conquering" language must also be redefined in light of Jesus. It involves primarily converting, not militarily destroying. There will come a day of reckoning, of course, when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. At that time, Israel -- i.e., those who have faith in Israel's Messiah, Jesus -- will be saved, yet all shall be judged by their works, so it's possible for those outside the faith to be saved (Romans 1). But there won't be a national "Israel" as distinct from Israel understood as all the people of God when everything shakes out.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”

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The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”

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Right, and so now we are left wondering who "my people" are. They are the renewed people of God, redefined as those who have faith in Jesus.

I pray that you do not show your support for those who would attempt to disinherit God’s chosen people from the land that was bequeathed to them by the Lord.

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If the NT is to be believed, God disinherited them in favor of an international people of God. Who am I to disagree?

Did you dance and rejoice with the enemies of Israel on 9-11?

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***? Where did this come from? Of course not!

Will you stand with them when they surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive the chosen of the Lord into the sea?

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I will stand against any nation, Israel or any other, who resorts to killing to further their political agenda.

S-word ~ The problem with your writings is that you mix other information with scripture and you don't tell people that you are doing that. It would be nice to tell use in Post #24 that a Dr. Humphres thought he had discovered a comet in 5 BC and he thought that it might be the Star of Bethlehem. You have built a whole senaerieo on that so called "COMET" which is NOT TRUE. How do I know it is NOT TRUE. Because someone decided to check out Dr. Humphres conclusions and looked up the Chinese sky records which Dr. Humphres had read and found out that these Chinese sky records showed proof positive that each time the so called "COMET' was seen in the sky by the Chinese the object had not moved during the 70 days of abservation. If it had been a "COMET" it would have moved in the sky but didn't. All it was was an exploding star. Read it for your self @ w.astposure.com/comets/cometas/star/visibility_star.htm

Dr. Humphres also mixes up Luke with Matthew stories. He gives a chronology of the life of Jesus and says this"

March 5BC -Birth of Jesus - the shepherds come - Luke
April 5BC - Circumcision of Jesus - Luke
May 11th 5BC - 40 days presentation of Jesus at the Temple - Luke 2:22-39
May 24 Visit of the Magi's - Matt
Late May or Early June - Jesus family leaves for Egypt. - Matt

There is one big problem with the family leaving for Egypt.
Luke 2:39 says that after all was preformed at the Temple at the end of 40 days the family of Jesus RETURNED INTO GALILEE, TO THEIR OWN CITY NAZARETH. There was no danger.

LUKE SAY THE FAMILY DO NOT GO TO EGYPT BUT RETURNED HOME TO NAZARETH.

Dr. Humphres says that after the presentation at the Temple the family stayed in Bethlehem so the wise men could see him then they ran off to Egypt. Dr Humphries gets this information from Matthew's 2. Matthew's story is NOT TRUE, there were no wise men, there is no record of the children being killed in Bethlehem, there never was a Star of Bethlehem and the family of Jesus never went to Egypt.

Your COMET and all the stories around have been proven false. Like a lot of other statements of your. Read Matthew and Luke 2 prove it to yourself, read the new info on the COMET for yourself don't take my word for it. The truth will make you FREE.

Arlanbb said:

S-word ~ The problem with your writings is that you mix other information with scripture and you don't tell people that you are doing that. It would be nice to tell use in Post #24 that a Dr. Humphres thought he had discovered a comet in 5 BC and he thought that it might be the Star of Bethlehem. You have built a whole senaerieo on that so called "COMET" which is NOT TRUE. How do I know it is NOT TRUE. Because someone decided to check out Dr. Humphres conclusions and looked up the Chinese sky records which Dr. Humphres had read and found out that these Chinese sky records showed proof positive that each time the so called "COMET' was seen in the sky by the Chinese the object had not moved during the 70 days of abservation. If it had been a "COMET" it would have moved in the sky but didn't. All it was was an exploding star. Read it for your self @ w.astposure.com/comets/cometas/star/visibility_star.htm

Dr. Humphres also mixes up Luke with Matthew stories. He gives a chronology of the life of Jesus and says this"

March 5BC -Birth of Jesus - the shepherds come - Luke
April 5BC - Circumcision of Jesus - Luke
May 11th 5BC - 40 days presentation of Jesus at the Temple - Luke 2:22-39
May 24 Visit of the Magi's - Matt
Late May or Early June - Jesus family leaves for Egypt. - Matt

There is one big problem with the family leaving for Egypt.
Luke 2:39 says that after all was preformed at the Temple at the end of 40 days the family of Jesus RETURNED INTO GALILEE, TO THEIR OWN CITY NAZARETH. There was no danger.

LUKE SAY THE FAMILY DO NOT GO TO EGYPT BUT RETURNED HOME TO NAZARETH.

Dr. Humphres says that after the presentation at the Temple the family stayed in Bethlehem so the wise men could see him then they ran off to Egypt. Dr Humphries gets this information from Matthew's 2. Matthew's story is NOT TRUE, there were no wise men, there is no record of the children being killed in Bethlehem, there never was a Star of Bethlehem and the family of Jesus never went to Egypt.

Your COMET and all the stories around have been proven false. Like a lot of other statements of your. Read Matthew and Luke 2 prove it to yourself, read the new info on the COMET for yourself don't take my word for it. The truth will make you FREE.

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Lake Country Astronomical Society
Astronomy, Astrology, and the Star of Bethlehem. .... John Clevenger

Did any unusual astronomical phenomenon occur between 8 and 2 BC? As it happens there were several notable celestial events during that period. The Chinese reported two comets during that time. The comet of 5 BC, in Capricornus and visible for 70 days, was reported to have a tail. Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University believes that this comet, which he describes as having a vertical tail, appeared at the time of the Jewish Passover. Prof. Humphreys believes that this started the Magi, who were knowledgeable of the Jewish prophecy recorded in the Book of Micah, concerning the birth of a Jewish king, on their journey. If right about the vertical tail, this could agree with the biblical account in Matthew that the star "stood over where the young child was". The comet of 4 BC had no tail and whether it was actually a comet or a nova is unknown. While historians have usually suggested that comets were always bad omens, Humphreys believes that history shows them to be either good or bad omens.

Did the conjunction in 7 BC of the King star 'Jupiter' and the messeanicStar 'Saturn' and the comet of 5 BC denote the birth of Jesus, and could the super-nova of 4 BC, which is the death of a star, denote the death of Herod the Great?

I may believe a scientists veiw on a subject of his expertise, but that does not mean that I must also accept his interpretation of the Bible.
Almost two years after having preformed all the requirments of Moses in the temple at Jerusalem and returned to Nazareth of Galilee, Jesus was taken to Egypt and when they returned, Joseph who seemingly preferred to live in Judea, was afaid to go there because of his fear of Herods son who was then ruling that quarter of Israel, and so they returned to the home of Mary in Nazerath.

Yes, all this has to be reinterpreted in light of Jesus' reformulation of Israel around himself. Faithful Israel are those people who attach themselves to him, regardless of what country they reside in or their ethnicity (quote Dunemeister) I've never called the Christian nations Israel. See above for a clarification on how Jesus redefined Israel. (Quote... Dunemeister)


Perhaps you might clarify this for me, I cannot see the Muslims as being attached to Jesus, nor the Buddhists or those of the Islamic persuasion, neither the atheists, or any of the other diverse groups who are against the teachings of the Bible, none of these are attached to Jesus. Yet you say that the Israel referred to in the Old Testament, which is to be surrounded by the Nations of the world and saved by the Lord who revealed himself through the young Israelite Jesus, who came in the name of the Lord, to do and speak only that which he was commanded, and whose side was pieced by the very ones who are to be saved in that day of tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor will ever be seen again, is the new spiritual Israel that has been reformulated by Jesus, and according to your reinterpretation, that Israel, is those faithful people who attach themselves to Jesus, but then you say that you do not call the Christian nations the new Israel. If it is not the Christians, Muslims Buddhists, atheists, etc, who are the new Israel according to your reinterpretation of scripture, then where is your new reformulated Israel? Surely it is not that worthless shepherd that God rose up to guide his people after he had been paid his majestic wage of thirty pieces of silver See Zechariah 11: 12-17.

O! That shepherd of the darkness who claims God sent him out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hoofs? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

Zechariah 13: 7, The Lord Almighty says, “Wake up Sword, and attack the shepherd who works for me! Kill him, etc.

Did you dance and rejoice with the enemies of Israel on 9-11?
***? Where did this come from? Of course not! Quote... Dunemeister.

I watched the Palestinians rejoicing and dancing in the streets after 9-11, I was just wondering whether their supporters in other countries joined in their celebrations.

I will stand against any nation, Israel or any other, who resorts to killing to further their political agenda. Quote... Dunemeister.

If the political agenda of a Nation is the protection of its people in the land of their rightful inheritance, and if the destruction of the enemies that have surrounded them in order to drive them into the sea is their only alternative, then they will have my unqualified support, what about you old mate?

There will come a day of reckoning, of course, when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. Quote ...Dunemeister.

Malachi 3: 1-2, The Lord almighty answers, "I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the 'Lord you are looking for' will suddenly come to his Temple. 'The messenger you long to see' will come and proclaim my covenant." But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?
When he who comes to prepare the way for the peaceful rule of one thousand years, and has done that which is required, and after the great day of tribulation all nations will have been brought into subjection to his son by the Great king in order that his chosen might rule in peace, for the thousand years. It will be to Jerusalem in the country of Israel, (And not your redefined mystical Israel who are the people scattered throughout the nations of the world who have attached themselves to Jesus) where all surviving Nations will go up each year to pay homage to the Lord king of the entire earth. It is after the Sabbath of one thousand years from when Adam died at the age of 930 on the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, that fire will descend from heaven and incinerate everything on the surface of this planet, then comes the judgment when the books in which your life has been recorded will be opened.Luke 12: 49, I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wished it were already kindled! I have a Baptism to receive and how distressed I am until it is over! Do you think that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace, but division etc. As Dionysus was torn to peices and his body washed in water before being roasted in fire; the spiritual Son of God who rose from the baptismal waters in the bodies of Noah and the other seven and who was to revealed himself through his obedient servant Jesus, whose spiritual body was torn asunder into the individual spirits of righteous people who had been gathered into the enclosure of which Jesus the mind, was the compilation and were poured out as little tongues of fire on all those who believed the words of our Father as spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant. And those spirits who have been judged in the flesh as all are judged and who now, in the spirit, live as God lives, gathering to themselves the required number of the spirits of good people who fall asleep in righteousness who rightous blood will be the ransom price that allows them to be reborn on earth and take the thrones that have been prepared for them after the spiritual head or heavenly compilation of all those spirits, has passed his earthly body through the Baptism of fire.

To Arlandbb:
I more or less agree with all that you say ,... Except!
... I have to live here in this God-forsaken-country (Jerusalem);
i.e.: ... God is Not to be found in this land , or there is to say:
... I have yet to see his working hand in Anything here. ... Simcha.

S-word said
Almost two years after having preformed all the requirments of Moses in the temple at Jerusalem and returned to Nazareth of Galilee, Jesus was taken to Egypt and when they returned, Joseph who seemingly preferred to live in Judea, was afaid to go there because of his fear of Herods son who was then ruling that quarter of Israel, and so they returned to the home of Mary in Nazerath.

I guess you didn't read the article about DR. Humphries statement that the Chiniese DID NOT find a COMET for the year 5BC. Looks like you have a one track mind.

Your statement above does not match the statement in Matt. 2 where it says that the wise men were directed by Herod to go to Bethlehem of Judea where they saw Jesus [v.5] And after the wise men departed from the the house in Bethlehem of Judea an angel told Joseph To Flee to Egypt. right now from the house in Bethlehem of Judea [v. 13] not the house in Nazareth that you tell above.

Now lets look at the statement Two years old or under [v. 16] In Israel when a child is born on the first day of birth they are called one years old so in that statement of being two years old or under really ment that Jesus was only up to one year old.

Another fact is that there is not one statement in the history of Bethlehem of Judes that King Herod had any childen slattered in its city. Something like that would have been remembered. Also the historian Josephes list all the bad things that King Herod had done and he does not say one word about the killing of any of the childen in Bethlehem.

Your twisting scripture again into saying things that are not true. There was NO COMET, NO wise men, NO Star of Bethlemen, NO fleeing to Egypt. Matthew story is a bunch of lies of Jesus first year of life. Luke 2 story is the real true story.

Why do you keep twisting scripture all around to come up with stories that are not trueful???

S-word said:

Yes, all this has to be reinterpreted in light of Jesus' reformulation of Israel around himself. Faithful Israel are those people who attach themselves to him, regardless of what country they reside in or their ethnicity (quote Dunemeister) I've never called the Christian nations Israel. See above for a clarification on how Jesus redefined Israel. (Quote... Dunemeister)


Perhaps you might clarify this for me,

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Jesus was reformulating Israel around himself. Those who were faithful Israel would follow him. This is the same sort of language any prophet of any era would have used, so it's no surprise that Jesus used it. The designation "Israel" is now, on a Christian understanding, correctly used of the church, which is comprised of all those who (a) confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, and (b) believe in their hearts that God raised him from the dead. These people come from all nations. If you need me to get particular about my textual basis for this, I'd be happy to oblige, but that would require starting a new thread.

If the political agenda of a Nation is the protection of its people in the land of their rightful inheritance, and if the destruction of the enemies that have surrounded them in order to drive them into the sea is their only alternative, then they will have my unqualified support, what about you old mate?

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The key words here are "is their only alternative." Physical violence is not the only alternative. Besides, as Christians, we are called to imitate Jesus "in his cross." In fact, there's no other way in which we are summoned to mimic Jesus. And that means that Christians are not called to violence or to the support of others' violence, whatever the justification. Our role is to suffer on behalf of others (consider the suffering servant songs of Isaiah 42-53). It's messy, but it's redemptive.

There will come a day of reckoning, of course, when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. Quote ...Dunemeister.

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God is not going to destroy everything, contrary to your apparent expectations. Interpreting scripture is a bit more of a nuanced activity than you are allowing. A multi-layered understanding of the term "Israel" is one, but so is the radical way in which Jesus' incarnation and resurrection fundamentally changed everything. But I won't pursue this side of the argument further as it's nowhere near the thrust of this thread.

Quote …Arlanbb I guess you didn't read the article about DR. Humphries statement that the Chinese DID NOT find a COMET for the year 5BC. Looks like you have a one track mind.
No I didn’t old mate, but I did read the article, Astronomy, Astrology, and the Star of Bethlehem. BY John Clevenger of the Lake Country Astronomical Society, which says as follows, “Did any unusual astronomical phenomenon occur between 8 and 2 BC? As it happens there were several notable celestial events during that period. The Chinese reported two comets during that time. The comet of 5 BC in Capricornus and visible for 70 days, was reported to have a tail. Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University believes that this comet, which he describes as having a vertical tail, appeared at the time of the Jewish Passover. Professor Humpherys believed that this started the Magi, who were knowledgeable of the Jewish prophecy recorded in the book of Micah, concerning the birth of a Jewish king, on their journey. If right about the vertical tail, this could agree with the biblical account in Matthew that the ‘Star Stood Over’ where the young child was”. The comet of 4 BC had no tail and whether it was a comet or a nova is unknown. While historians have usually suggested that comets were always bad omens. Humphreys believes that history shows them to be either good or bad omens.

The Comet which appeared to the wise men to have come out of Jupiter, heralded the birth of Jesus, the nova, which is the death of a star as seen in 4 Bc denoted the death of Herod.
I could have used any of a number of authorities to supply evidence of the triple conjunction between the ‘King Planet’ Jupiter AND THE Messianic planet ‘Saturn,’ in 7 BC and the conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars in 6 BC, plus the comet of 5 BC, which was seen as the star that led the wise men to Bethlehem of Galilee just a few miles from Sepphoris which was destroyed in 4 BC.

Quote …. Arlanbb Your statement above does not match the statement in Matt. 2 where it says that the wise men were directed by Herod to go to Bethlehem of Judea where they saw Jesus [v.5] And after the wise men departed from the the house in Bethlehem of Judea an angel told Joseph To Flee to Egypt. right now from the house in Bethlehem of Judea [v. 13] not the house in Nazareth that you tell above.

Matthew 2 Verse 5, does not say that they went to a house in Bethlehem of Judea where they saw the child; nor does verse 13 say that it was in the house in Bethlehem of Judea that Joseph was warned to flee into Egypt, and nowhere in scripture does it say that the wise men departed from the house in Bethlehem of Judea. Stop trying to distort scripture to justify your ignorance to the word of God.

Knowing from Luke, that Joseph with his wife Mary and her child had returned to Nazareth about 7 weeks after the birth of her first born son, and that the wise men who came to pay homage to the king which, from the heavenly signs, they believed had already been born, (Where is he who that is born king of the Jews for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him) had revealed to Herod the time that they had first seen the star that had heralded the birth of promised King, although Matthew does not tell us when that time was, to make sure that the threat to his throne did not escape, Herod had all the boys slaughtered in the district of Bethlehem in Galilee who were two years and below according to the time that he had learned from the wise men when they had first seen the star. After determining from his priests that the promised Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea, Herod did tell the wise men to go there, but nowhere in the book of Matthew does it say that they went there. Instead it is said that on leaving Herod in his Palace, the star that they had seen in the east appeared and Oh, what Joy was theirs, and it went before them and stood over the house (in Galilee) where we know from Luke that the child was at the time that the wise men came to Israel.

Quote …. Arlanbb Now lets look at the statement Two years old or under [v. 16] In Israel when a child is born on the first day of birth they are called one years old so in that statement of being two years old or under really ment that Jesus was only up to one year old.

So? Herod weren’t taking no chances mate; 12 months, 14, 16 months old, don’t matter much, two years and below gets em all.

Another fact is that there is not one statement in the history of Bethlehem of Judes that King Herod had any childen slattered in its city. Something like that would have been remembered. Also the historian Josephes list all the bad things that King Herod had done and he does not say one word about the killing of any of the childen in Bethlehem.


Exactly what I tried to tell you in a previous answer to your ever more increasingly senseless questions. There is absolutely no evidence of any great turmoil in and around Bethlehem of Judea in late 5 BC or very early 4 BC, but the same cannot be said for the district around the triangle of Nazareth, Bethlehem and Sepphoris in 4 BC, just prior to the death of Herod the Great in April of 4 BC, shortly after a failed suicide attempt.

Quote ….Arlanbb Your twisting scripture again into saying things that are not true. There was NO COMET, NO wise men, NO Star of Bethlemen, NO fleeing to Egypt. Matthew story is a bunch of lies of Jesus first year of life. Luke 2 story is the real true story.
Why do you keep twisting scripture all around to come up with stories that are not trueful???

There was a comet which was seen in Israel in 5 BC and has been called by successive generations, ‘The Star of Bethlehem.’ There were wise men who came to Jerusalem in search of the child that had been born to be the king, not only of the Jews, but of the entire world. Joseph was warned in a dream to take his family who were living in Galilee to flee into Egypt, and Herod whose secret police had eyes and ears throughout the land of Israel and who knew approximately to where the wise men had travelled, had all the male children in northern Bethlehem and its surrounding districts slaughtered.
In your attempt to justify your ignorance to the truth as revealed in scripture, you would condemn the scribes used by the Lord as liars, stop embarrassing yourself in the eyes of your RF compatriots.

Around the time of Herod’s death in 4 BC, Sepphoris, which is only 4 miles north of Nazareth and even closer to the town of Bethlehem, which today is called Beitlahm, was the centre of an uprising by the peasants around that district, Judas, the son of Hezekias, supposedly attacked Herod’s arsenal in order to arm himself. The Romans, under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burned the city, and many of the survivors were taken and sold as slaves in Rome. In the following year of 3 BC, Herod Antipas, not to be confused with his brother Herod Archelaus who ruled Judea, began to rebuild the beautiful city of Sepphoris.