The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

AK4 said:

Its not me who thinks so, its God where in His Word yeast has always represented sin. And the sin and lies that you guys put into His Word with your lying pens did and still is growing tenfold. Yes the yeast that you guys put into the Word has help the few (Mt 22:14) who has search for the hidden treasure/pearl (Matthew 13:44-52) and come to knowledge of His Truth grow. The right people who preached are Jesus, the prophets and the apostles, but it is not you or your "collective messiah".

+++Ben: Jesus, the Prophets and the Apostles were components of the Collective Messiah.

Jeolousy? Adjectives? Look at all the adjectives God used about you guys---

Zephaniah 3:1-7 1 Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city!

+++Ben: That was indeed the condition of Judah when God decreed his final judgment; but because of God's promise to David that Judah would stay forever as a
Lamp in Jerusalem, Israel had to redeem Judah by dying for her sins. (I Kings 11:36)

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

+++Ben: Here, the mother is the Catholic Church and the larlots are all the churches that derived from her: The Protestant churches. The woman drunken is Christianity; and the saints are the Jews, Jesus among them.

Na 3:4 -Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot (Gee i wonder who God is talking about here), the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. (KJV)
Na 3:4 all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft (NIV)
Na 3:1 Woe to the city of blood, full of lies, full of plunder, never without victims! (which city could this be?

+++Ben: The same as above.


Like i said you dont know what is a Jew and what is a gentile (heres a clue--a good tree and an evil tree)

+++Ben: Why don't you ask Jesus himself? He will tell you what is a Jew and what is
a Gentile? I'll give you the quotations and you check for yourself. Here's what he says
about Jews: Matthew 5:13,14 and John 10:34,35. Now, if you really want to know what Jesus says about Gentiles, here's what he says about them: Matthew 7:6 and
Matthew 15:26. Don't blame me, you asked for it!

How did you put it--- its easy to say the blah blah blah but where is your proof. Acts 15 is not proof and it actually proves you wrong so now what do you have to say?
Where did you get this at? Did i ever say this? No. The only thing i do is let the bible interpret itself and Gods Word is always right and you despise it!

+++Ben: I am sorry, but you are a frustrating person. Why don't you convert to Judaism at least in order to stop your nonsense? Mind you that I am suggesting to you to accept the faith of Jesus which was Judaism. That's all. Perhaps you will have some peace of mind. You are consuming yourself with jealousy for not being able to
belong to God's People.

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Ben

AK4 said:

+++Ben: Here, the mother is the Catholic Church and the larlots are all the churches that derived from her: The Protestant churches. The woman drunken is Christianity; and the saints are the Jews, Jesus among them.

You know i used to believe this too about the catholic church, well as being the mother, but she is still just one of the harlots. The mother started with Jerusalem and she is the mother because not only has the catholic church and its sisters followed in some of the ways of the Jews, but so has the Islamic faith. Notice how it all started with Jerusalem with both of these faiths. Jerusalem was the mother because they were given the truths of God and they postituted themselves out from their Husband. Plainly stated they had the Truth and ran from it. The Jews started the notion of one God. I know you dont want to see this but notice this verse and many like it

+++Ben: It doesn't matter how much you struggle to make up whatever you like in order to discard the Jewish People from God's election. We have paid for our sins and God has taken us back to Him. And you are consuming yourself inside with jealousy because of our special place in the Counsel of God.

Eze 16:44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.45 - Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

+++Ben: Ezekiel 39:27 - When I bring them back from among the peoples, I will gather them from the lands of their enemies and will prove My holiness through them in the sight of many nations.

Eze 16:51 - Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

+++Ben: Ezekiel 39:25 - Therefore, thus says the Lord God: "Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have pity on the whole House of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy Name.

Notice how "gentiles" are more justified than the "jews".

+++Ben: Jeremiah 46:28 - Nevertheless, "I will make an end of all the nations to which I have driven you. But of You I will not make an end; I will chastise you as you deserve.

Na 3:4 -Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot (

+++Ben: Amos 3:1,2 - Hear this word O men of Israel, that the Lord pronounces over you; over the whole family that I brought up from the Land of Egypt. You alone have I favored, more than all the families of the earth.

Na 3:1 Woe to the city of blood, full of lies, full of plunder, never without victims! (which city could this be?

+++Ben: Joel 4:20 - But Judah shall abide forever, and Jerusalem for all generations.


Going by your beliefs, since when and why would the catholic church be wellfavoured when Judaism is supposedly the religion of God. That just dont add up with your beliefs

+++Ben: I didn't say they would. You are making mine your own words.

+++Ben: Why don't you ask Jesus himself? He will tell you what is a Jew and what is
a Gentile? I'll give you the quotations and you check for yourself. Here's what he says
about Jews: Matthew 5:13,14 and John 10:34,35. Now, if you really want to know what Jesus says about Gentiles, here's what he says about them: Matthew 7:6 and
Matthew 15:26. Don't blame me, you asked for it


I will trust you on these verses and just say i agree with you . The thing is you still dont understand what God considers a Jew and Gentile. Let me help you a little

+++Ben: You prefer to trust and not to check because you smell the rat from those
quotations.

De 10:16 - Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

+++Ben: I have done that already. You do not worry.

De 30:6 - And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

+++Ben: That's exactly what I have done.


Jer 4:4 - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem:

+++Ben: How about advising yourself to do that? I have done it already.

Jos 5:2 - At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. (think about that for a second....circumcised a second time? Is this literal or of the heart?)

+++Ben: Of the heart, which it was what I did when I was born again in the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.

Do you need me to qoute Paul next? Nah you would hate that.

+++Ben: There is no need. My Scriptures are sufficient.

+++Ben: I am sorry, but you are a frustrating person. Why don't you convert to Judaism at least in order to stop your nonsense? Mind you that I am suggesting to you to accept the faith of Jesus which was Judaism. That's all. Perhaps you will have some peace of mind. You are consuming yourself with jealousy for not being able to
belong to God's People.


The faith of Jesus was not Judaism. His faith was of The Father. I believe you are insulting Him by saying that. I do accept the faith of Jesus given to me by His God who has dragged me to Him . And am forever grateful. I am far from jealousy and only the Word of God consumes me(De 4:24) (1Co 3:15) and i have nothing against Jews or anyone else and i am humble enough to recognize that i may not be one of the few that God has chosen, but the Spirit reveals to me that i may be "close" per se. When you understand the Plan of God, one is able to get passed the jealousy and stuff.

+++Ben: In that case Matthew insulted him in Matthew 5:17-19 when Jesus confirmed the Law and the Prophets to the letter and warned us all to do the same.
Now, test the spirit that revealed whatever to you under the light of Isaiah 8:20. If this spirit won't speak according to the Law and the Testimony, it's because there is no light in it. And I doubt it will pass that test.

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Ben

Ben Masada said:

Ben

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AK4: Going by your beliefs, since when and why would the catholic church be wellfavoured when Judaism is supposedly the religion of God. That just dont add up with your beliefs

+++Ben: I didn't say they would. You are making mine your own words

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+++Ben: You prefer to trust and not to check because you smell the rat from those
quotations.
+++Ben: That's exactly what I have done.
+++Ben: How about advising yourself to do that? I have done it already
+++Ben: Of the heart, which it was what I did when I was born again in the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism
+++Ben: There is no need. My Scriptures are sufficient.

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AK4 said:

Alright thats what i like to see! You are using scripture to talk for you.:clap

So with that in mind i think you think that i have been saying that God has forever rejected physical Isreal/Jews. No that is not what i am saying. For i believe you will agree with at least this with Paul

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

+++Ben: Where did he get the idea that the "deliverer will com from Zion?" This is a reference to the return of the Jews from Babylon "to Zion" and not "from Zion."
(Isa. 51:11)

Well at least the "all Israel will be saved " part.

+++Ben: If at the end all Israel will be saved, why wouldn't he leave Israel in peace? All his life was trying to convert the Jews to his Christianity.

i didnt check because it was a mute point to show you that circumcision is of the heart and this is what God considers to be His people.

+++Ben: Circumcision is of both; not only of the heart.

If Jesus faith was Judaism then He broke that faith by healing on the sabbath and others. Jesus faith was of the Father not of judaism because judaism wasnt even perfect to please God other wise if it was then what would have been the point of His coming

+++Ben: There is nothing wrong with healing or doing good on the Sabbath if necessary. Those in the NT who said that Jesus broke that commandment by healing
on the Sabbath were of the same cronies of Paul.


Yes to the light and testimony. Jesus is the Light and the Testimony (the Word of God). Not Judaism. i just looked at one those judaism sites. Judaism is just as confused as Christainity and Islam--all the different sects and stuff. It Reminds me of the different groups in Jesus` time, pharisical and sadduccees, agnostic etc. God is not a God of confusion and just as traditional christainity is, so is judaism

+++Ben: That's not what Isaiah says. "To the Law and the Testimony, if..." That's exactly what Judaism means in a word: The Law and the Testimony, or the Law and the Prophets. That's exactly what Jesus came to fulfill and confirm for all of us to do the same. (Mat. 5:17-19) If Judaism was confusion, Jesus was confused.

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AK4 said:

Is it really?---Lets look at that verse

51:11 So the ransomed R2141 of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting R2142 joy {will be} on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow R2143 and sighing will flee away.

everlasting joy? Sorrow and sighing flee away? So if this prophecy is when the Jews returned from babylon, then where is the everlasting joy and why hasnt sorrow and sighing fled away? Lets see since then there was the Maccabean Wars, the destuction of the temple, holocaust, and still to this day the mideast conflicts--sorry this is not a prophecy about the literal, physical jews.

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Poisonshady quote:
We're still in that exile. The day spoken of in 51:11 hasn't come yet.

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So then do you think that God was a liar? Was God's command to Abraham a practical joke? Just to see if he'd do it? What does it feel like to have such a low opinion of God?

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I have to slightly disagree with Ben here. Doing good is fine on the Sabbath, if it's within the law of the Sabbath. If medical attention is NOT an emergency and can very well be put off for one day, it should be. The only exception to keeping the Sabbath laws is a life/death situation. A reading of the NT shows that the men Jesus supposedly healed had conditions they'd lived with for most of their lives... Jesus could have/should have tended to them the next day.

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AK4 said:

At least this is a better explanation than Bens.

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Lets see, am i demeaning God or is it Jeremiah when the Spirit of the Lord inspired him to write this---

Jer 9:25 "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh-- 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart." (NIV)

heres the NAS version

25 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "that I will punish all who are circumcised and yet uncircumcised-- R499 26 Egypt and Judah, and Edom and the sons of Ammon, and Moab and all R500 those inhabiting the desert who clip the hair on their temples; for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised R501 of heart."

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Now if God was truly interested in physical circumcison he would also still be interested in physical sacrifices too right?

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Ho 6:6 - For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Ho 8:13 - They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.
Pr 21:3 - To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

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Ps 40:6 - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Ps 51:16 - For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

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Do i need to go further to show you that God is not interested in physical things?

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And Jesus says

Mr 2:27 - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mt 12:10 - And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mt 12:12 - How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mt 12:5 - Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Now you can match all this said with the verses above and see if you still see if Jesus did something wrong

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Poisonshady313;1343084]
Not only aren't you Jeremiah, but you're not saying nearly the same thing as him. People failing to live lives according to the Torah are uncircumcised of heart, but this does not negate nor replace the physical circumcision... the fact that it was explicitly commanded that Abraham do it to himself and his household (when he was 99 years old), and that Moses, on his way back to Egypt was almost killed for not having circumcised his son show how important physical circumcision is.

You are taking the verses you use out of context. Where you have instances of people behaving wrongly, they are told that their heart isn't circumcised. This isn't an "instead" proposition... this is an "also" proposition.

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Technically, He is. Problem is, there is no Temple... so according to God's law, it would be illegal to bring a sacrifice in a place that isn't the Temple. Jews are constantly praying for the rebuilding of the Temple so that the physical sacrifices will resume.

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This is speaking particularly of those who offer their sacrifices in vain. God would prefer that people act justly and righteously, and bring the appropriate remembrance offerings and thanksgiving offerings, rather than use sacrifices to continually excuse their wrong behavior.

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If the verses you post mean what you think they mean, that would mean that the death of Jesus would have no effect whatsoever, because God wouldn't accept it.

Now... I know that I know Jesus' death had no effect whatsoever... but seeing as how I'm sure you're someone who does believe Jesus' death had some sort of effect... I think you'll be willing to rethink your interpretation of those verses.

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Again, read in context, it is clear that God prefers obedience rather than excuses. It makes no sense to turn around, declare the law to be obsolete, and have Jesus be the ultimate excuse, who "paid for it all"... thus going against what was spoken in Psalms and Hosea.

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Further? You haven't even begun. If God wasn't interested in physical things, He wouldn't have created a physical world. He wouldn't have commanded an entire nation and all their children, and their children's children for all eternity to observe physical laws.

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First of all, I don't trust Jesus... so his words aren't authoritative. They represent to me only Jesus' opinion... they do not represent the truth. So yes, Jesus still did something wrong.

All your NT verses prove to me is that Jesus had a poor understanding of Jewish law

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AK4 said:

+++Ben: Where did he get the idea that the "deliverer will come from Zion?"
Exactly---

2 Peter1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

+++Ben: This has nothing to do with coming or going to Zion. You are mixing oranges with apples and you will get nowhere.

+++Ben: This is a reference to the return of the Jews from Babylon "to Zion" and not "from Zion."
(Isa. 51:11)

Is it really?---Lets look at that verse

51:11 So the ransomed R2141 of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting R2142 joy {will be} on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow R2143 and sighing will flee away.

+++Ben: You betrayed your own self by quoting 51:11, which rather asserts my position.

everlasting joy? Sorrow and sighing flee away? So if this prophecy is when the Jews returned from babylon, then where is the everlasting joy and why hasnt sorrow and sighing fled away? Lets see since then there was the Maccabean Wars, the destuction of the temple, holocaust, and still to this day the mideast conflicts--sorry this is not a prophecy about the literal, physical jews.

+++Ben: Now, you are talking pure nonsense with what has nothing to do with the subject.


+++Ben: If at the end all Israel will be saved, why wouldn't he leave Israel in peace? All his life was trying to convert the Jews to his Christianity.


1Co 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. AND
Romans 9:1-5 1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed F33 from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, F34 and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

+++Ben: That's Pauline rhetoric from his policy of Replacement Theology.

1Th 2:14 -For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

+++Ben: There was never a church in Judea. Paul was never given the chance to build a church in the soil of Israel. The Pharisees and Nazarenes took care that he
didn't. That's why he kept a grudge against the Pharisees all his life.

+++Ben: Circumcision is of both; not only of the heart.

But honestly which one matters to God? The heart.

+++Ben: If circumcision did not matter, God would not have inspired Abraham with a Covenant based on the circumcision of the flesh. Read Genesis 17:9-14.

+++Ben: There is nothing wrong with healing or doing good on the Sabbath if necessary. Those in the NT who said that Jesus broke that commandment by healing
on the Sabbath were of the same cronies of Paul.

and Your proof is? And why would Pauls cronies who say that Jesus was sinless and blameless say He broke the sabbath? That just dont add up. It was the pharisees and scribes who said this not the "cronies"

+++Ben: You ask them who were the ones who wrote their babel of confusion. Here is the quotation: "Therefore the Jews sought to kill him because he not only had broken the Sabbath; but also because he said that God was his father." Now, let me explain the passage for you because your faith won't let you see reality. The guy who
is speaking here is the writer of the fourth gospel. And he is stating in his words and not the words of anyone else that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because Jesus was breaking the Sabbath. Is that clear? I repeat: The statement is from the man who wrote the fourth gospel. (John 5:18) Now, you are off the hook.

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Ben

AK4 said:

+++Ben: You ask them who were the ones who wrote their babel of confusion. Here is the quotation: "Therefore the Jews sought to kill him because he not only had broken the Sabbath; but also because he said that God was his father." Now, let me explain the passage for you because your faith won't let you see reality. The guy who
is speaking here is the writer of the fourth gospel. And he is stating in his words and not the words of anyone else that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because Jesus was breaking the Sabbath. Is that clear? I repeat: The statement is from the man who wrote the fourth gospel. (John 5:18) Now, you are off the hook.

O ye of little faith. Is the writer saying that He broke the sabbath or that the Jews thought He was breaking the sabbath?

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+++Ben: O ye of little understanding! The writer is the one saying that the Jews wanted to kill him because he was breaking the Sabbath.

Lets see

Luke 2:24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 25 He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

27

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

+++Ben: It means that man is lord of the Sabbath. He can do whaever he wishes with the Sabbath. I choose to keep it. But others have all the right to replace it by another dat, or just not to keep it at all.


You know its amazing how you can try to change something when you leave out stuff---

15 The man went away, and told the R247 Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16

For this reason the

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Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

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+++Ben: That's another example to corroborate what I said above. The gospel writer is the one saying that the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing those things on the Sabbath.

17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 18 For this reason therefore the R249 Jews were R250 seeking all the more to kill Him,

because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making

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Himself equal with God.

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+++Ben: That's what I mean. That's an explanation and confirmation by the writer of the gospel.

Wow now doesnt that just change everything. NIce try Ben, you are no different from these denominations taking a verse here and there to make their religion.

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+++Ben: Try someone else who is not blinded by faith, and ask the same question. That's a matter of indirect speech. Pure grammatics. Therefore, nothing changed here. You are the one just like anyone else who is intoxicated by blind faith.
These kind of people close their eyes even to the rules of Grammar.

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Ben

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AK4 said:

+++Ben: It means that man is lord of the Sabbath. He can do whaever he wishes with the Sabbath. I choose to keep it. But others have all the right to replace it by another dat, or just not to keep it at all.

Now come on Ben does that make sense to you? You just basically said that MAN can change a Law of God. "Have all the right"? You sound like the christains who dont want to follow His commandments (spiritually) but are free to do whatever and Jesus just forgives them and it frees em to sin again.

+++Ben: You are answering too fast without thinking. I did not basically said that man can change God's Law. I said that's up to you to obey or not. Or even to change
for yourself. That's quite different. And yes, we are free to do whatever we want. What's the problem? Mention to me something we are not free to do.


+++Ben: Try someone else who is not blinded by faith, and ask the same question. That's a matter of indirect speech. Pure grammatics. Therefore, nothing changed here. You are the one just like anyone else who is intoxicated by blind faith.
These kind of people close their eyes even to the rules of Grammar.


You have your eyes closed:cover: tight. Rules of grammar? Do you really know them? If so you wouldnt have said that Now here you lesson for the day from dictionary.com

FOR is a preposition

preposition
1.with the object or purpose of: to run for exercise.

and BECAUSE is a conjuction

conjunction
1.for the reason that; due to the fact that: The boy was absent because he was ill.
—Idiom
2.because of, by reason of; due to: Schools were closed because of heavy snowfall.

so with the object or purpose therefore the R249 Jews were R250 seeking all the more to kill Him, for the reason that; or due to the fact that He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

+++Ben: Gosh! I can't take it any more! Man, for heavens' sake, who said that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because he was breaking the Sabbath? Read the text and
answer this question for yourself and don't return to the same thing over and over again as if you don't understand indirect speech. Especially after the above show
of a Grammarian expert. Sorry, but you disappoint me.

So will you like to try that again?

+++Ben: No, please! You win. Have it your way.

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Ben

+++Ben: Gosh! I can't take it any more! Man, for heavens' sake, who said that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because he was breaking the Sabbath? Read the text and
answer this question for yourself and don't return to the same thing over and over again as if you don't understand indirect speech. Especially after the above show
of a Grammarian expert. Sorry, but you disappoint me.

So will you like to try that again?

+++Ben: No, please! You win. Have it your way.

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AK4 said:

+++Ben: You are answering too fast without thinking. I did not basically said that man can change God's Law. I said that's up to you to obey or not. Or even to change
for yourself. That's quite different. And yes, we are free to do whatever we want. What's the problem? Mention to me something we are not free to do.

Do you really want to start another subject you cant win? Here. Before you hang yourself i will give just a small portion of what God has to say about your "free" will---

Jer 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

So let this one go because you have NOTHING scriptural that says someone can obey God without Him actually doing/causing/inspiring (or whatever word you want to use) it. Oh by the way, your answer is up there in that verse. You want another try time travel. How free are you to do that? Okay okay heres a better one...Can you or anyone else come up with a thought that was free from any influence? (you do know what free means right)



LOL Score one for the gentiles!!!

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Ben Masada said:

Not too fast fella! Jeremiah 13:23 is a hyperbolical expression to enhance the difficulty to break up a habit.
But anyway, I am just wasting my time with you again. You would not understand these things.

Read Genesis 4:7 and see if you can understand how much of freewill is involved in there.

Then, you can go to Deuteronomy 30:19,20 to see how much of freewill the Amighty has granted us with.

Last but not least, why don't you read my thread on "Freewill and Volition?"

Ben :slap:

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AK4 said:

Well God just put a cause in front of them to influence their behavior. Now they can choose no doubt, but are they choosing without something influencing what they choose?

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Ben: <*)))><

Ben Masada said:

The influence here is not an interference but a concern. The Spirit suggests or
advises man to choose life and not death; blessing and not curse. But the power
to choose is still with man.

Ben: <*)))><

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