Christianity vs Islam

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Odion said:
Odion said:

Not quite. It is still the same God. They still have the same will, same mind, same existence. After all, God is spirit. Many Sufi would understand this concept. It is not "One God, plus another God", or "one God, plus a demi-God", but one God in three persona - probably the best word I know of for this is "one God in three realities or "existences". Nevertheless, it's still God, and there is still one God.

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ok, but see how you say that god was in 3 realities, right. then there were 3 gods at one given time, the hindus believe that god has sepparated himself into us tiny humans and we must work our way back to form that big god again ( correct me if i'm wrong suraj)

Correct, not yet! It's an alien concept, and it's still difficult for a Christian, let alone a Muslim such as yourself.

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oh, well to tell you the truth i do understand it but when something like the above example comes up i just have to make a question on it, i can't stand it

He knew it would happen to him. Consider for a moment, that the Bible has not been changed. Jesus knew that he would be betrayed (Mark 14:42), and if he could have stopped it if he truly did not want it (Matthew 26:52-54)
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

From this, we can see Jesus was crucified to "fullfill the Scriptures", i.e., prophecies that concern him.

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yes he did know that it would happen (islamic perspective) he was tolled by Allah through an angel (gabriel (as) i assume because he was the bridge between the prophets and Allah), and he was also tolled that he would rise again, and again after that. in islam the return of Jesus (as) back on earth is one of the biggest signs of judgement day, the small ones have already happened and are still happening.

(Took me a while to find this verse! I was scratching my brains trying to remember! Long live Google!)

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sorry for putting you through all the trouble

Erm.. uh... I'm still confused... ???

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um? forget this, you probably need to go back to understand what i'm saying

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Odion said:
I haven't.Where I'm from, referring to oneself as 'we' as opposed to 'I', means you're a freak.

well some people who use that term are freaks, i think that too, why cant they just be normal? :sad4:

but the Kur'an is written in that way because you know how Muhammed (saws) was an illiterate man, right. so if it was written in simple form then people would have said (just as they say now) that he made it up. so by it (the Kur'an) being written formally people are to understnd that Muhammed (saws) never made it up nor did any other arab. i mean see how people do not use "we" but instead "i" they do not like it that way, no one does and nor did tha arabs of that time (i think) just as we (meaning we not i) do not now.
there are clear arguments about the Kur'an to tell people that it isn't a made up storry by Muhammed (saws) and Allah knew that this would arise some time after Muhammeds (saws) death, so he prepared for it, only he knows the future no one else

Breathe · Nov 17, 2008

eselam said:
ok, but see how you say that god was in 3 realities, right. then there were 3 gods at one given time,

Not so. God is eternal and does not change. Eternally personal, impersonal and transpersonal. God never "split", nor "changed". God always is, always was, and always will be.

Jesus is the more "accessible" part of God in Christianity, because humans struggle to worship what they cannot comprehend. Which is why some people pray towards statues, some pray towards fire, and some pray towards the Kaaba.

oh, well to tell you the truth i do understand it but when something like the above example comes up i just have to make a question on it, i can't stand it

Sincere questions are good, though. Don't worry about that.

yes he did know that it would happen (islamic perspective) he was tolled by Allah through an angel (gabriel (as) i assume because he was the bridge between the prophets and Allah), and he was also tolled that he would rise again, and again after that.

That's sweet, I like that. Within Christianity, Jesus already knew it (obviously, because Jesus is God), and Jesus was his own bridge, I guess. Between God's and humans.

in islam the return of Jesus (as) back on earth is one of the biggest signs of judgement day, the small ones have already happened and are still happening.

Same within Christianity.

sorry for putting you through all the trouble

No problem!

Breathe · Nov 17, 2008

eselam said:
well some people who use that term are freaks, i think that too, why cant they just be normal? :sad4:

Because they like to use things like "we" to look smart.

but the Kur'an is written in that way because you know how Muhammed (saws) was an illiterate man, right. so if it was written in simple form then people would have said (just as they say now) that he made it up. so by it (the Kur'an) being written formally people are to understnd that Muhammed (saws) never made it up nor did any other arab.

I disagree. Illiteracy =/= Stupidity. One could be extremely well-versed but still unable to read and write.
Also, do not forget, that Muhammad had scribes.

i mean see how people do not use "we" but instead "i" they do not like it that way, no one does and nor did tha arabs of that time (i think) just as we (meaning we not i) do not now.

But how do we know that Muhammad did not do that for that sake? To make himself seem more legitimate as a prophet?

there are clear arguments about the Kur'an to tell people that it isn't a made up storry by Muhammed (saws) and Allah knew that this would arise some time after Muhammeds (saws) death, so he prepared for it, only he knows the future no one else

Arguments to tell people it isn't made up? I've yet to see them... and yeah, I can understand the rest. But I don't understand why knowing the future is so important. Another thread, maybe, we can discuss that in.

Surya Deva · Nov 17, 2008

Odion said:
I haven't.Where I'm from, referring to oneself as 'we' as opposed to 'I', means you're a freak.

LOL or schizophrenic

However, I know what Eselam means when he says the "educated" use we. The use of the royal we is common in literature e.g.,

"We will now explore.... We will talk about x in this essay"

But this is only to guide your reader along. But to say

"We created you from an extract of clay" is a contradiction. The reader did not create with god did he, so why would god use "we". If I wrote in an essay:

"We wrote this essay" the reader would say, "What, I did not write this essay!

So when Allah says "We" who is we? It clearly cannot be the reader. It cannot be the angels(because they are posterior to god and do not create) I would say 'we' is simply referring to Mohammed, whose alter-ego is Allah.

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Suraj said:
LOL or schizophrenic

However, I know what Eselam means when he says the "educated" use we. The use of the royal we is common in literature e.g.,

"We will now explore.... We will talk about x in this essay"

But this is only to guide your reader along. But to say

"We created you from an extract of clay" is a contradiction. The reader did not create with god did he, so why would god use "we". If I wrote in an essay:

"We wrote this essay" the reader would say, "What, I did not write this essay!

So when Allah says "We" who is we? It clearly cannot be the reader. It cannot be the angels(because they are posterior to god and do not create) I would say 'we' is simply referring to Mohammed, whose alter-ego is Allah.

ok look i know you are a smarter man than what you appear at the moment ok.
let me put it this way 1+1 = 1 thats 2 numbers joining to make 1 other number and not 2.
now please do not say to me 1+1 =2, i kow that.
"we" and "i" are "one", thats two words making one meaning, but sometimes also two. just as 1+1 = 1 and 1+1 =2
you do not have to take part in the "thing" (essay for example) but thats how it is written (note i'm not an english teacher to be explaining this, my explanation may be off a little or hard to understand)
"we" reffers to a first person( a mono, not a poly) through a different perspective ( "we are" not very good in grammar so forgive "our" language). Odion should know grammar, right? i think he should be able to explain this last sentence of mine

Breathe · Nov 17, 2008

LOL @ Suraj

Good point Suraj, that is why the "Royal We" is generally used. Why is it used in the Qur'an, unless Allah has a superiority complex?

Surya Deva · Nov 17, 2008

Absurd. (Eselam's 1+1 = 1 argument)

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Suraj said:
Absurd.

????????
whats that about?

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Odion said:
LOL @ Suraj

Good point Suraj, that is why the "Royal We" is generally used. Why is it used in the Qur'an, unless Allah has a superiority complex?

look it's not just the rich who use it. anyone can and like i said it reffers to a single person but through a different perspective (or soemthing like that, i'm not good ingrammar to say it properly)

and by the way Allah is a Royalty to us ( he is the king of kings, he has an infinite amount of wealth) so if you wish to put it that way then ok

ever heard of this name El Mugni - the rich, the richest, the wealthy,
it is one of the names of Allah along with about 99 others. or 98 in this case

Breathe · Nov 17, 2008

eselam said:
look it's not just the rich who use it. anyone can and like i said it reffers to a single person but through a different perspective (or soemthing like that, i'm not good ingrammar to say it properly)

and by the way Allah is a Royalty to us ( he is the king of kings, he has an infinite amount of wealth) so if you wish to put it that way then ok
ever heard of this name El Mugni - the rich, the richest, the wealthy,
it is one of the names of Allah along with about 99 others. or 98 in this case

I'm confused...

Surya Deva · Nov 17, 2008

Eselam,

I am saying your argument 1+1 =1 and 1+1 = 2 is absurd.

'We' and 'I' mean completely different things. We means, "more than one" and 'I' means only one.

If what I am writing is for more than one, then I write 'We' A president or PM addressing his public, "We have reached the conclusion that we need to raise taxes" or when including the reader in a text, "We will demonstrate now" or representing a body e.g., a spokesperson, "We the jury say..."

If what I am writing is only for one, then I write 'I, me, mine'. If I am saying I created something, I write, "I created it" If I am writing that I own something I say, "It is mine"

'I created you' vs 'we created you' both have different meanings and are mutually exclusive. The former means only ONE has created, the latter means MORE THAN ONE has created. Therefore the royal 'we' in the Quran cannot mean the former, it has to mean the latter. Which therefore means there is MORE THAN ONE creator.

Either Allah has a partner god and creation was a teamwork or both the author and the speaker are the same(Allah is Mohammed's alter ego)

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Odion said:
I'm confused...

in your previous post you said that the rich use it only right or is that my missunderstanding.
if it isn't a missunderstanding by me then Allah too is THE RICH which is why he also has the name El Mugni ( i can't wright it properly so that it sounds the same in english so forgive me). he too is rich and his wealth is infinite, so thats why Allah tells his creations (us humans) ask for wealth from me and i shall give it to you (he knows best if we desserve it or not so in some cases he may not give someone wealth, deening on what they wish to use it for why)

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Suraj said:
Eselam,

I am saying your argument 1+1 =1 and 1+1 = 2 is absurd.

'We' and 'I' mean completely different things. We means, "more than one" and 'I' means only one.

If what I am writing is for more than one, then I write 'We' A president or PM addressing his public, "We have the conclusion that we need to raise taxes" or when including the reader in a text, "We will demonstrate now" or representing a body e.g., a spokesperson, "We the jury say..."

If what I am writing is only for one, then I write 'I, me, mine'. If I am saying I created something, I write, "I created it" If I am writing that I own something I say, "It is mine"

'I created you' vs 'we created you' both have different meanings and are mutually exclusive. The former means only ONE has created, the latter means MORE THAN ONE has created. Therefore the royal 'we' in the Quran cannot mean the former, it has to the mean the latter. Which therefore means there is MORE THAN ONE creator.

Either Allah has a partner god and creation was a teamwork or both the author and the speaker are the same(Allah is Mohammed's alter ego)

and what about when a writter says "we started to write this......blah blah...." who started to write with him? no one, him alone.
the word we can have to meanings, one person and two or more people, but because of the lack of proper education we as humans think that "we" is always poly (many) and not mono (single). Allah doesn't share his throne with no one nor his power nor his ruling, so if you think that by "we" he reffers to more than one then i advise you to go and ask a propper educated man about it, or go ask an english teasher or something

heres alink for you from google and also one of the deffinitions

"We is thefirst-person,pluralpersonal pronoun (subject case) in Modern English. "

define:we - Google Search

Surya Deva · Nov 17, 2008

Sorry Eselam I am not buying it. I understand the use of 'we' in grammar and the it is never used as a substitute for 'I' we always means there is more than one. If I have created something, I say "I have created it" not "we have created it" The latter necessarily means there is more than one creator.

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

Suraj said:
Sorry Eselam I am not buying it. I understand the use of 'we' in grammar and the it is never used as a substitute for 'I' we always means there is more than one. If I have created something, I say "I have created it" not "we have created it" The latter necessarily means there is more than one creator.

but still i give you proof from a trusted site and you do not believe me. if you were amongst educated people or royalty you would see how they reffer to themself as "we" instead of "i" but because our education level is low (in language, english) people tend to think that we reffers to only a group of people when we say "we" and not just one person. it was confussing for me too at first to accept it but i had to eventually, theres no escaping the truth

England my lionheart · Nov 17, 2008

eselam said:
but still i give you proof from a trusted site and you do not believe me. if you were amongst educated people or royalty you would see how they reffer to themself as "we" instead of "i" but because our education level is low (in language, english) people tend to think that we reffers to only a group of people when we say "we" and not just one person. it was confussing for me too at first to accept it but i had to eventually, theres no escaping the truth

Actually when the Queen says we she means herself and the Government

Gharib · Nov 17, 2008

England my lionheart said:
Actually when the Queen says we she means herself and the Government

have you ever had a personal chat with the queen to know this.

:sorry1:

and so, whats that got to do with this. i proved to you that "we" is also singular and also plural (i don't know what plural means but it sounds good) "we"is single or many, thats it, look it up if you wish, you cant argue with the whole world about a word that has double meaning, which you do not accept

England my lionheart · Nov 17, 2008

eselam said:
have you ever had a personal chat with the queen to know this.
:sorry1:

and so, whats that got to do with this. i proved to you that "we" is also singular and also plural (i don't know what plural means but it sounds good) "we"is single or many, thats it, look it up if you wish, you cant argue with the whole world about a word that has double meaning, which you do not accept

So you are saying we is singular and plural but you do not know what plural means but it sounds good lol,oh dear i'm lost for words

Surya Deva · Nov 17, 2008

England my lionheart said:
So you are saying we is singular and plural but you do not know what plural means but it sounds good lol,oh dear i'm lost for words

:biglaugh:

Remember 1+1 = 1 amd 1+1 = 2

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