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Christians Should Be Ashamed

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Proverbs 31:8
"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.


Does this verse mean anything to you? Or can you pick and choose which verses of the Bible are important and which ones aren't? Very few of you have the guts to speak up for anyone else. Do you speak up for the poor, the disabled, for children, for babies, for the elderly? For anyone???

If you do, pm me, I will tell you some ways I know of to do good in the world. I want some help, I need some fellow Christians who love God enough to prove it with action and not just pretty words. I am sick of hypocricy. If you "don't want to get involved" fine. Forget I asked. I don't care what denomination you are, or even if you aren't a Christian, if you want to do good and stop people from doing evil, God bless you and you are a friend of mine.
 

Lycan

Preternatural
Very few of you have the guts to speak up for anyone else
This statement is somewhat presumptuous of you don't you think? How many of us do you know on a profoundly personal level? What do you know of our daily lives and contributions to society or mankind in general? I am not often bothered by the statements of others but am troubled that you assume to know what I (as one of the "you"s) "have the guts" to do. Explain the "kind" of people you are frustrated with but please do not group "us" all in your definition of them.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Johnnys,

I am ashamed of my Christian brothers and sisters for how they acted in this ordeal.

1) I am ashamed that Christians were more greived with Terri's tube being removed than with her death

2) Politicians were determined not to allow her to die with dignity

3) Conservative Christians apparently get a morbid warm and fuzzy feeling keeping someone artifically alive against their will

4) Conservative Christians are more politically concerned with using government as a tool to enforce religion than in establishing liberty and justice for all

5) I am frustrated with Christians using the Bible in the manner which you have above. We are to be faithful to all the words of Jesus - He did not, however, command Christians to forcibly keep a terminally ill person alive against their will. Terri spoke through her husband biblically and socially.

6) The very height of my shame is that the politicians who tried unlawfully, irrationally, and extraordinarily to keep Terri alive against her will are the same group of fellas who (1) voted for a PRE_IMPTIVE STRIKE against Iraq and accept the killing of innocent women and children as collataral damage AND (2) support the death penalty which allows the scum of our society to die with more dignity than Terri.

Yes, I am deeply moved with shame.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Date Posted: Today at 03:06 PM Comments (1)
I am very sad today. Terri Schiavo went to be with the Lord yesterday. This means so much more than the murder of one woman.

There are pages and pages of little-known facts and testimonies that prove my original position on this matter, but what's the point.

Nobody wants to know the truth. They only believe what the pro-euthenasia media hand-feeds them with thier slanted articles and biasly worded polls. They insist on saying she was a PVS even though 50 doctors said she wasn't and could have even recovered with therapy!!

I am sick at myself today. I couldn't even save one person. Not one. And now there will be many others like her, who's "guardians" will be able to starve them to death whether they want to or not, whether they are terminally ill or not, simply because they are disabled. And what's to stop a parent from killing thier own child, now, if they want to? If he or she is disabled, they are the guardian, and now there is no law against it! I'm so disgusted with our world today, that let this happen. We are not "evolving". We are not "progressing" in our thinking, our society is reverting to the thinking of Nazi Germany. Soon we will have nursing homes that will not be for care or recovering, but simply a place to dispose of and murder the unwanted, the disabled, and those who can't speak up for themselves. I thought liberals wanted to protect the rights of the disabled, not take them away! Instead, in this matter, they are more concerned about the threat the case could've made to Oregon's assisted suicide laws, than the threat to disabled people's very lives.

To make matters worse, Terri's husband has decided to cremate her, despite the fact that she was a Catholic and they don't believe in cremation. He has also decided to keep the location of her final resting place a secret, so her own parents cannot even attend her funeral! A couple of nurses who worked at the hospice where Terri was kept said that her husband may have tried to kill or abuse her while she was there, one even found a syringe in the trashbasket after one if his visits (a doctor would've put it in a medical waste bag), and that day Terri's blood sugar was extremely low as though she had been given insulin.

And what not many people know is, he moved her to that hospice BECAUSE one of the men who runs it is a pro-euthenasia advocate. He had it planned all along!

Not only that, he often refused letting her own family see her, even in her final moments, he kicked them out. He wouldn't let her join in any activities within the home, refused allowing her outside, wouldn't even let her have a visit from a thereupitic pet, even though she had loved animals. He refused her any rehabilitation for 10 years, and wouldn't even let her squeeze a washcloth because he considered it a form of rehabilition. She could swallow liquids, doctors have even testified that she swallowed Jello, but he wouldn't even allow her to try. She could have re-learned how to eat, but he insisted she have a feeding tube implanted, why? Just so he could remove it and no one would question his intentions? To make her look worse off than she was?

Why did it take him so many years to "remember" that his wife didn't want any drastic measures to prolong her life? Why was he trying to keep her alive all those years AFTER she was in this condition, and only change his mind after he had another woman???

Terri could speak!! A couple of nurses heard her say "Mommy" and "help me". She was denied any sort of speech therapy, and even stroke victims have recovered and been able to speak again from worse conditions than hers!

All everyone keeps saying is, "oh, she wanted to die, she didn't want to be kept alive by machine". Well, I ask them, Who says so? Her husband and his brother. That's it. And there are plenty of reasons he has to lie about it! EVERYONE else, her parents, her siblings, her friends, said she WANTED TO LIVE!!! And can we really trust ONE man to make a life or death decision for another person? Even killers on death row have had more rights in this matter than Terri had!


Mr. Schiavo was awarded 1 million bucks to take care of Terri from a lawsuit against a hospital for her condition. Did he spend it on her care?? NO! He spent it on himself, on his bank account, and on lawyers to have her starved to death. WHILE SHE SAT THERE AND HAD TO HAVE HER EXPENSES PAID BY OUR TAX MONEY ON MEDICARE!!!! Talk about Medicare fraud!!!

Even if Terri HAD said she wouldn't have wanted to be kept alive by machine, (which is doubtful) and even if she HAD needed the feeding tube, also doubtful, would she have objected to a mere 3 feedings a day from a simple tube?? He didn't even know, but that didn't stop him from taking it away! Now she's dead, and I hope you are all pleased. Now I am afraid to drive because if I needed any kind of artificial help (as I have before at one point in my life), there is no guarantee I would not be murdered as well.

That is straight from my journal today. Want to know more, just ask and you will recieve. I'm sickened by the fact that Christians by and large have just sat back and let someone who WASN'T dying be murdered legally just because of what one sicko judge decided.


I still haven't got one single Christian even asking me what type of good deeds I'm thinking of. Figures.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It doesn't look like you have your facts straight concerning Terri's case.

Furthermore, your comparision to Nazi Germany and your thinking that we can now starve folks who aren't terminally ill is irrational.

Is the source of your information a fundamentalist news organization?
 

Prima

Well-Known Member
You must spread some Karma around before giving it to angellous_evangellous again.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Lycan again.

It makes me very sad that this issue is so much more important than the thousands of people dying from other causes.

It also makes me sad that it has turned into something religious instead of legislative. How many times do we have to say it for people to understand? Separation of church and state.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
And JUST because I'm pro-life, don't assume that the only kinds of things I want to do are pro-life initiatives, of course that is a huge part of it, but I want to get people to help me in doing a lot of things, if you're interested to know. I think we as Christians and just people in general need to band togethor against injustice and pain in the world, instead of just sitting on our butts and complaining about how bad it is, or saying that every wrong in the world is "God's will" and not helping anyone out.

I have a lot of ideas and strategies, but apparently you would all rather criticize me and my ideas than actually DO anything, but what did I expect.

No wonder so many people become athiests.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Johnnys4Life, what sort of action would you advocate? What do you think must be done now?
 

Prima

Well-Known Member
I have a lot of ideas and strategies, but apparently you would all rather criticize me and my ideas than actually DO anything, but what did I expect.
Perhaps we just have our own ideas and strategies? I don't believe we criticized you in particular. Again, you don't know us personally, so you cannot say that we are doing nothing.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
angellous_evangellous said:
It doesn't look like you have your facts straight concerning Terri's case.

Furthermore, your comparision to Nazi Germany and your thinking that we can now starve folks who aren't terminally ill is irrational.

Is the source of your information a fundamentalist news organization?
Actually my information comes from legal websites looking up the laws themselves, as well as non-biased news sources - a rarety nowadays. But criticize all you want. Nowhere in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about seperation of church and state, for one thing, and secondly, since when is stopping the killing of disabled people and the elderly just a CHURCH thing? I will work with anyone if they are doing good in the world. I will work with a satanist if it is for a good cause.

Where in the law now does it say that a healthy NOT terminally ill but simply disabled person cannot be denied food and water? Look it up, it doesn't, the law has been misinterpreted so that it doesn't offer even that much protection anymore. But if you'll all excuse me I have things to do now. Ask me more questions and I will surely answer you later on.
 

Prima

Well-Known Member
Nowhere in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about seperation of church and state
That's true, it doesn't...but what's your point? by separation of church and state, that doesn't matter! :D

The law doesn't say we can't starve people, but instead says we can't abuse people, which includes starvation.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
johnnys4life said:
Where in the law now does it say that a healthy NOT terminally ill but simply disabled person cannot be denied food and water? Look it up, it doesn't, the law has been misinterpreted so that it doesn't offer even that much protection anymore. But if you'll all excuse me I have things to do now. Ask me more questions and I will surely answer you later on.
Medical professionals would not kill a healthy disabled person and anyway the person in question can say they want to live. Terry was brain dead, not disabled.
 
Johnny for life, I know you love life, I'm a disabled person myself but terri said she wanted to die if she got like this. If it was me, I would do the same. I love being able to do things I do.
But I got lots of things to consider. This is a complicated issue with me because I'm a disabled and disabled people lives short lives and I want to see the future in almost 100 years. I'd like to see new things crop up. But if I'm in Terri's situation, I would have quit. It is that hard but I have no problem with death. It is a surreal thing, death, you hate and love it.
It's too early for me to comment on euthanasisa but I'm not against it.
If you have a irreversible terminal disease, it is wise to spend your last days with the people you love and then get euthanzized, also, you're totally unable to do anything because of horrible thing, if it destroy your quality of life totally, you can ask people to end your life. It's matter of conjecture and wills, Johnny.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Ah, nuts....I'd taken too long executing the move.

Guys I'm sorry...I cna't undo this :(. My computer is loading slow, so there wasn't a mod-post when I started doing this :(
 

Rex

Founder
Johnny I'm a little confused.

The LAW gives authority to her husband to terminate her life.

The HUSBAND says this is what she wanted.

Who are you to say it isn't what happend? And who am I to say it is what happend?

We will never know.
 
Having had my disabled father pass away recently i know the pain her family and husband must have been going through as i had this with my family.

People assume the husband to be a bad man for following his wifes wishes? Why? He loved her and looked after her for many yrs? how does that make him bad?

My father was disabled through heart disease followed by chrones disease and finally bloody MRSA from the hospital that was looking after him...all you can do is believe in the medical staff and their information they provide. While he was conscious and aware - the doctor told us in front of him that he was infact dying, my father asked for pain relief but the doctor knew what he was asking for...and provided such relief until he passed away that night...in no pain, asleep with his family by his side. He would have been kept alive after he went to sleep but the doctors said they wouldnt revive him if he did pass due to the quality of life it would leave him with....does this make me bad not fighting that decision?? i think not...

I am glad that the lady has passed away and that there is an end to the bickering and suffering she, the husband and the family were going through. It wont ever leave them but in time they will come to terms with what has happend.
 

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
Johnny,

Perhaps the following will help.

Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. Terri's nurse said so.

If you want to believe this you must also believe that practically person involved in Mrs. Schiavo's care conspired to cover up attempted murder. The court did review the affidavit of one Carla Iyer , registered nurse who claims:

- Mrs. Schiavo was lucid.
- All of her notes indicating Terri was lucid were mysteriously deleted.
- She saved Mrs. Schiavo's life after her husband "injected her" with insulin.
- A fellow LPN was possibly killing patients.
- She was fired after she told police about all these crimes.

The court found Ms. Iyer's tales "incredible" which is legalese for "bull****". In order for her claims to be true everyone from Mrs. Schiavo's doctors to the police had to decide to cover up for Michael Schiavo.

Theresa Schiavo is lucid.
I do not wish to be disrespectful here, but I am dealing with people determined to ignore cold facts, so I will be blunt. Mrs. Schiavo is about as lucid as your average Venus Flytrap. She responds reflexively to some stimulus, but there is NO willful, deliberate or conscious actions. The cerebral cortex of Mrs. Schiavo's brains was destroyed 15 years ago due to anoxia (oxygen starvation) brought about when heart stopped beating due to a potassium imbalance. The cerebral cortex is responsible for all higher brain functions. It is the part of the brain that makes you "you". It allows you to think, it contains your personality, your language and and voluntary motor functions. Without this part of your brain you are like a computer with know operating system. They can boot you up in the morning, but you pretty much just sit there and do nothing except consume electricity.

Theresa Schiavo could get better.
Yes, theoretically, in a parallel universe, two hundred years in the future where Star Trek is actually real, Dr. McCoy could travel back in time and stumble across Mrs. Schiavo and give her a pill (which she couldn't swallow, since swallowing is a conscious action) and she would regrow her cerebral cortex. Mr. Spock would then find the keeper of her katra and restore her personality via a Vulcan Mind Meld™.

But, short of that, no, she won't get better.

But people have come out of these types of situations before. I read in Reader's Digest about this guy who was in a coma/vegetative state who suddenly started writing a novel...
Stop! This is an "apples and oranges" situation. The folks you have read about suffered physical trauma to their brain, usually as a result of falls and car crashes. The cerebral cortex was damaged, but still there. Mrs. Schiavo's cortex is not damaged, it is DEAD. The brain tissue died from lack of oxygen. In fact, the cortex has shriveled and liquefied.

Let's go to the CT Scan where Carol Merrill is standing:

schiavo_ct_scan.jpg



As you can see, you can't think with what isn't there.​

Future medical advances, like stem cell research, could help her regrow dead brain tissue.
Yeah, like stem cell research is blazing along in Bush's America. That issue aside, such things are WAY in the future. Also, assuming such a technology showed up courtesy of Dr. McCoy's vacation layover in this dimension, and you regrew the dead brain tissue, the tissue would be BLANK. The unique essence that was Theresa Schiavo has been lost forever. It was lost 15 years ago. Nothing is going to change this. Not Wendi Freisen hypnosis CDs, not Bob with a truckload of Enzyte™, and not Benny Hinn and a Holy Ghost Machine Gun (pat pending).


Senator Bill Frist, who is a heart surgeon said Terri's diagnosis was wrong and he looked at the tapes and she wasn't really in a vegetative state.


1) Dr. Bill is a quack. Why do I say that? Because only a quack would diagnose a person he has NEVER met, never mind examined.​
2) It's Mrs. Schiavo to you.
3) While Dr. Bill is a medical doctor (or at least he plays one in the senate), he is NOT a neurologist or a neurosurgeon. He is not qualified to make ANY diagnosis of Mrs. Schiavo's condition. A civil engineer is not a nuclear engineer and we don't give much credence to his opinion on nuclear reactor design.
4) Dr. Bill is using Mrs. Schiavo as a tool to pander to the religiously insane side of the Republican party. In 1989 Frist advocatedhttp://dcinsidescoop.blogspot.com/2005/03/frist-urged-changing-definition-of.html changing the definition of "brain dead" to include anencephalic babies. Anencephalic babies are in the same state as Terri Schiavo except that she suffered a physical trauma that put her into a vegetative state while the anencephalic babies are born that way.

Michael wants his wife dead so he can collect the money from her settlement.
1) The fund was exhausted years ago. This charge was made back in 1998 and was found without merit by the court. Michael had at the time formally offered to surrender his wife's trust fund to independent administration. He would in now way benefit from the money.
2) That's Mr. Schiavo to you.


Michael Schiavo wants his wife dead so he can marry another woman.
Mr. Schiavo could have divorced his wife long ago and married anyone he wanted. Mr. Schiavo started dating again at the insistence of his in-laws who encouraged him to get on with his life. Mr. Schiavo went so far as to introduce women he was dating to his in-laws.


Michael Schiavo abused his wife and neglected her care.
Dr. Wolfson, the court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem who spent a month investigating the Schiavo case found that Mrs. Schiavo received outstanding care from both her parents and her husband. In fact, he noted in his report that after 13 years in a bed, she had never ONCE developed a bed sore. The medical professionals out there will tell you that this is indicative of near miraculous, exceptional care.


Theresa Schiavo's parents are evil.
No, they just love their daughter. They have allowed their love to cloud their judgment so much that they have become pawns of outside groups with political agendas who are lying to them and giving them false hopes.


Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to kill his wife.
No, he asked the court to step in (in accordance with Florida law) and determine whether life support should be stopped. The court, acting as a proxy, ruled that Mrs. Schiavo was in a "persistive vegetative state", had no hope of getting better, and had told people at various times (funerals) before her accident that she had no desire to be kept alive in such a state. The court found all the evidence "clear and convincing" and order her feeding tube removed. The COURT did this, not Michael Schiavo.


A feeding tube is nourishment, not life support.
Not according to Florida law:


Life-prolonging procedure" means any medical procedure, treatment, or intervention, including artificially provided sustenance and hydration, which sustains, restores, or supplants a spontaneous vital function.


The video tape I saw shows here reacting to people.
The video you saw was edited to give that impression. It was culled from hours of video where Mrs. Schiavo did absolutely nothing. Random or reflexive reactions do not demonstrate cognition.


Removing the feeding tube is a cruel thing to do. She will be in agony, dying of hunger and thirst.
No. The part of Mrs. Schiavo's brain that would register pain of this sort is gone. Medical professionals describe the death as peaceful.


A summary of Mrs. Schaivo's Guardian Ad Litem's report can be found here:​
http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html



Further reading:​

Abstract Appeal - Timeline and excellent source of court rulings


Dr. Jay Wolfson's <i>Guardian Ad Litem</i> report​
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/0319schiavo_... http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/0319schiavo_finalreport.pdf


Q&A on legal issues in Schiavo case​


Bio of Theresa Schiavo​


Death when a feeding tube is withdrawn is "placid"​
<http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11183111.htm>

Source: http://snipurl.com/dsd3
 
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